Speedworks

I have come across some threads that mentioned the new high impedance and high flow injectors from injector dynamics.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID2000.html


Considering their specs I can imagine it would be possible to use them as a single injector per rotor and just one rail.

Does anyone have any experience with them and what option would these offer towards mildly to highly upgraded engines.

I'm looking forward to your input

Ceylon

iTrader: (3)

Interesting, would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried these with an FD.

Speedworks

In Uk, this guys is going to give them a try in a big build

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forum...ad.php?t=61883


But he's not using them as single injectors.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

you could use the ID2000's in the primary locations with a single rail but according to an email response I got from Paul Y, there would be too much gas with too little air flowing in the ports and gas stratification would occur.

now that's the theory, I'd still love to see someone try it!

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

I installed ID1000's for all 4 injectors, relocated the primaries to the Xcessive LIM with the OEM primary injector ports plugged so there is only one fuel rail. Posted a photo here:

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/picture-request-injector-dynamics-installed-870484/

Idle isn't as smooth and consistent as it was with stock injectors, but I suspect that is largely because the primaries have been moved away from the OEM location.

Speedworks

I did some more research and found out that there are some other injector manufacturers who are making high impedance and high flow fuel injectors

check this link out

http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/impor...uel-injectors/

arghx

iTrader: (3)

It's been done... almost 30 years ago by Mazda on the 12A turbo (the Turbo I as opposed to the FC Turbo II):



You can see the intake manifold (it was a 1 piece, carb-like design) has only two oil injectors in it--no secondary fuel rail.



On the right you can see the intermediate housing for the 12A-T with holes drilled for the injectors, just like the later 4 port EFI engines. And here are the factory 12A-T injectors:



Those are low impedence 750cc (depending on who tests them) top feed injectors. The low impedence design means a more responsive solenoid coil with fewer windings, and thus a quicker responding injector (less injector lag). They were batch fired because that's the only way they could do it while keeping costs down. When Mazda's technology improved they went to staged sequential fuel injection. Two sets of 550cc low impedence injectors were used for the 86-87 model year Turbo II's.

I just don't see the point of running two enormous fuel injectors. It is clearly a step back in technology. Large size means it will be imprecise--it's kind of hard to water your lawn with a fire hose. And high impedence means a slow responding needle valve with a lot of injector lag. I guess if it's a drag car or something then maybe you could do it... but what's the point? MAYBE if you are running E85 it could be justified. The factory design is fine, why return to the 80s?

It'd be one thing if you needed 6 injectors for extra fuel, but besides simplicity what's the point of relocating your primary injectors into the manifold? You're just letting more fuel stick to the intake manifolds. Why do you think all the OEM's went from throttlebody injection to port injection and now to direct injection? The 16X engines have the primaries in the rotor housings and the secondaries in the irons (old primary location).

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

Taken from the ID webpage:

agree

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I read through their website a little more, and they raise good points about how newer injectors use a smaller valve design and thus don't need to be high impedence. But I still don't think running 2000cc primary injectors, even very high quality ones (which the ID2000's seem to be) is a good idea for idle quality.

The ID2000s do look like good secondary injectors though. It'd be nice to run the stock 550s in the primary position and then use the ID2000s in the secondary position instead of trying to do an 850/1600 setup. And I still think relocating the primary injectors into the LIM doesn't accomplish anything beyond the aforementioned simplicity.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

I knew it would be some sort of a compromise but wanted the simplicity, didn't trust the OEM injectors much, and was afraid that plugging the extra injector ports in the LIM wouldn't be reversible. The injectors only moved a few inches further from the ports, and I was hoping the ID1000's would disperse fuel well enough to make up for the difference. Thus far it's pretty decent, and I'm not experienced enough with tuning to claim that I have the car idling as well as the setup will ever allow.

If it were easier for me to add injectors to the rotor housings I would liked to have tried that as well.

Speedworks

well for me it's a 550/ID2000 setup or I'm going to add my spare sec rail (850's) on the outside of the LIM as extra injectors.

the ID2000 feels better eventhough the other option will be far more cost effective

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I think 550/2000 sounds good actually. The more I read about these injectors (and you can't trust all the marketing stuff), the more I like them versus the 1600 or 1680s that everyone (including myself) runs. And that's because the 1680's are a very, very old design. This pic says a lot:



The 1600 injectors as well as the OEM fuel injectors from 1st and 2nd gen Rx-7's are all the same basic design as the EV1 injector on the left. And that design is more prone to clogging and leaking than the newer stuff.

pluto

installed 4 x id2000 on a customers car and idles just as good if not better than the OEM on pump gas.

2a+RoN

That's what I like to hear!!

Sarusanj

iTrader: (9)

I run RX8 primaries with 4 ID1000's in a GZ LIM. Ran great until the tuner blew it up. I "should" be getting my engine back this week, and we'll see how the setup really does. I'm tempted to switch to E85, but I don't know that the primaries will be sized right. Maybe another set of ID1000's as primaries instead?

proz07

iTrader: (6)

with what ecu? and why would he need all that fuel?

z

pluto

haltech 2000. I'm tuning the car for two maps. Pump and E85.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

That's really good to hear Steve. I recently installed 650cc (Low Imp.) / ID2000cc setup and was happy how I could get it to run nice and lean at idle and had the fuel up top without any hesitation or rich spots when they come on. But was disappointed I was reaching 80% duty cycle @ ~16 PSi, 7,000 RPM with 44 PSi base pressure with the new Precision Billet 6765. Even though it was rich (10.8-10.9) since I didn't want to spend a lot of time on it until the engine was broken in fully, means I don't have a lot more room too go. Installing an A1000 pump and -8 line all the way to the tank and increasing the base pressure to 50 PSi in hopes I'll have enough fuel for at least 20 PSi >_>.

Really considering changing to ID725cc just to get a little more fuel and allow me to remove my FJO Injector driver (and set the injector lag settings accurately for all injectors) but I'm worried I won't be able to get it to idle nice and lean since I wasn't able to do so with 750cc (low Imp.) primaries. Just wish the PowerFC didn't have that damn minimum limit or I'd just put some ID1000cc's in there >_>. This year, I started debating changing to a more serious standalone like the Platinum 2000 just for things like this but right now the car is working mint and spending 2k+ to change my ECU right now would hurt the wallet after spending on so many other new things for the car this winter/spring.

Good to know for future reference that you can idle on the ID2000cc's with a Haltech. Good for future reference. Thanks for sharing with us.

thewird

2a+RoN

thewird,

I think there are a few setups out there running our ID725's on primaries with a lean and consistent idle. How about this, I'll send you a set of 725's if you will get accurate results and post them so that we have a definitive answer. If they don't work send them back, if you want to keep them, we can work something out...

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I think I'll take you up on that offer. Your from azrotaryrockets.com right? Thanks again for getting me those ID2000cc's in time for the DGRR

On a side note, my primary injector testing has been quite long. Gone from stock 550cc --> lowimp 850cc --> lowimp 550cc --> lowimp 750cc --> lowimp 650cc and now gonna try some highimp 725cc lol. Trying to get it just right haha.

thewird

Trout2

iTrader: (5)

There are folks running ID 1000's as primaries with consitent idle and good AFR's. The PFC with Datalogit does not restrict their use as primaries.

Jack

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I'd have to see that to believe it. The FD PowerFC has an ms floor where you can't go below that regardless of injectors used. By good AFR's, I'm talking 13 AFR. A rotary engine can idle at 11's but its not ideal and misses a lot as well as fouls plugs.

The only thing I can really think of is that by putting in the new injector timing, your essentially creating negative lag since they respond so much quicker then the stock injectors. That you are able to idle leaner that way. But I'd still have to see it or do it to believe it. If its true, I'd love to run some ID1000's in my primaries.

thewird

2a+RoN

I am good friends with AZRR, but I work for Injector Dynamics. I will send a pair of 1000's as well. I have heard of the 1000's idling lean enough with PFC as Trout2 mentioned, but never saw any logs or data. Would love to see your results.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

Aaron:

re flow rates for ID injectors...

the ID site (which i found to be excellent) discusses why the ID1000 generally flows approx 1000 CCs of gasoline and 880 CCs of the typical "calibrated" test fluid.

my question is given this fact how do we relate the ID1000 to the traditional Bosch 1600.

is the Bosch 1600 flow rate derived from:

1. actual flow of gasoline
2. actual flow of "calibrated" (lower viscosity) fluid tested and then adjusted to gasoline for viscosity difference.
3. actual flow of "calibrated" fluid

currently i run the usual 850/1600 setup w an additional 1400 CCs of methanol. IDC for the gasoline side is around 74% at 500 SAE rw.

for 2010 i will be doing a number of serious track days as well as engineering my 2 rotor to run over 200 mph at the Oct Texas Mile.

in order to give my motor every chance of survival in Texas, it will need to make 600 rwhp for 30 seconds, i will be running no gasoline, just methanol.

it requires 132,717 BTUs (11.3 AFR) to make 600 rw rotary hp. since we want to run no more than 85% IDC that adds another 17.6% and further i want to be able to run 10 to 1 so the gross deliverability would be 176,446.

gas has 119,060 BTUs per gallon. 176,446/119,060 = 1.481 gallons per minute or 5609 CC/Min. that's gross. that's gas.

600 rw rotary hp on meth:

again, 132,717 net BTUs needed. methanol contains 57,250 BTUs per gallon.
we want 176,446 gross so 176,446/57,250 = 3.082 gallons per minute or 11,666 CC/Min.

so the question is what do i need from ID to get it done. i have a GZ manifold so have 6 ports.

the question posed at the top of this post becomes relevant.

do your ID 2000 injectors flow 25% more gasoline than the Bosch 1600s? are we talking apples to apples?

viscosity may be a factor... higher viscosity, lower flow i suppose.

gasoline .37-.44
methanol .59
ethanol 1.19! (just threw that in there for interested parties.)

the reason to run meth in Texas is cooling.

the cooling properties of the correct net amount to make 600 rw rotary hp:

gasoline 1775
methanol 7393

howard

2a+RoN

Howard, great q's...

Bosch 1600's flow ~1750-1800cc depending on part number (I have a graph of all 4 somewhere...) on our bench on gasoline. Since these were originally CNG injectors, I gather the 1600 name came from an uncalibrated "calibrated" test fluid..

Our ID2000's actually flow ~2200cc on gasoline, but calling them ID2200's just doesn't sound as nice...

So, from 1800 to 2200 nets a 22.22% increase in flow.


Our HP calculator is not currently on the site as we have been updating it, but if you get me your email, I will send it over. We have found it to be quite accurate and includes pressure, specific gravity, dead times, recovery times, etc., etc. unlike the common internet injector calculator and should get you very close. Keep in mind also that the ID2000's are capable of running 130psi base fuel pressure if your pumps can keep up, which results in ~3700cc/min. So with 6 injectors, we can definitely get you there on methanol.

I hope to make it out to Texas this October as well!