Hyper Ground System
05-19-03, 10:43 PM
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Hyper Ground System
Just wanted to put my $.02 in about that "Hyper ground system", I think it is great and more people should do it, There is believe it or not a noticeable power/response increase, I dont have anything other than "butt dyno" comparison but it also cleared up a slight stumble that I have had recently.
Furthermore it cost me only about $20 at the hardware store getting some grounding bolt connectors and some 6ga wire also some of those shrink wrap things...
I like it and I would do it again although it does require removing the rats nest but I was in there doing the turbo simplification anyway, thanks a ton to JONSKI for his help...
JDub
Furthermore it cost me only about $20 at the hardware store getting some grounding bolt connectors and some 6ga wire also some of those shrink wrap things...
I like it and I would do it again although it does require removing the rats nest but I was in there doing the turbo simplification anyway, thanks a ton to JONSKI for his help...
JDub
05-19-03, 10:57 PM
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can you list the points of attachment for the hyper ground system? im using a home depot ground system and i only have 2 or 3 points connected and so far it doesnt seem to have made any difference.
05-19-03, 11:04 PM
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I used pretty much the same diagram that Damion used give or take a point... Be sure you get right on the housings and all that... Damn I threw the file away! Look at a thread by Damion from a few days ago its got great pics...
P.S. Thanks Damion, great pics...
P.S. Thanks Damion, great pics...
05-20-03, 12:46 AM
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Yeah, thanx to Damien I just made some of my own. I will be posting some pics in the next couple days. It was cheap and I think mine are probably better than the Hyper ground because I soldered all my terminals on instead of crimping them.
Right now I'm still trying to figure out where the 2 on the exhaust go. They must have been removed a long time ago. I cannot really tell from Damien's pics, anyone got some better ones?
Right now I'm still trying to figure out where the 2 on the exhaust go. They must have been removed a long time ago. I cannot really tell from Damien's pics, anyone got some better ones?
08-05-03, 10:50 PM
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For those of you who want to know where to put the ground wires:
I purchased the full-on $120+ Hyper Ground system, which I wouldn't have done had I just had the instructions on where to put wires! I'm not saying it was a waste of money since the cables were well made, but I could easily have made my own from scratch. In the end, the directions were kind of ambiguous since they are not specific to the RX-7, but I followed the basic recommended layout and the cables just fit at my chosen connection locations, which was nice not to have a lot of extra cable length. In addition I put on a few custom-made ground wires, which may have been overkill but here's my story:
Symptoms: 3K hesitation (more like 2800-2900rpm hesitation). When cold: At partial throttle acceleration through 3K rpm, ALWAYS hesitation. Did not appear at high load/fast acceleration or when really babying the throttle. When warmed up: no hesitation, but intermittent SEVERE bucking (3-4 times back and forth usually), again at partial throttle, never at high load/fast acceleration. Intermittent means once every 1-2 days. Various sites have attributed this to confusion in ECU switching between single/dual injectors. I just bought the car (2nd owner), and it has done all this since I purchased it.
Solutions: Removed every ground wire, wire brushed/sanded lugs and connection points, and sanded paint from chassis where necessary. Did the same to the fusible links box on the positive side of the battery. Ground wires I did this to were:
Catback-to-chassis
Engine harness-to-chassis (left side of engine)
UIM-to-chassis
Engine harness-to-block (brass plate on lower left side of engine)
Engine harness-to-block (under UIM, under ignition coils)
Engine-harness-to ignition coils (under UIM)
ABS-to-chassis (I know, was probably for ABS only!)
Then I removed the UIM-to-chassis ground wire (has no rubber coating), cut it and put on a lug and turned it into a ground wire from the downpipe flange to the chassis (I used this wire since it has no plastic coating to melt on the very hot downpipe! This wire looks just like the stock Catback-to-chassis ground. I replaced this with a stereo cable replacement (two 10 ga wires) from the chassis to the UIM. In addition to this I added the following ground wires:
1) Two 10 ga. Stereo cables from UIM to Secondary Fuel Rail mounting bolt (found that recommendation on this site!)
2) Two 10 ga. Stereo cables from brass plate, lower left side of engine, to engine block at threaded hole directly above rear trailing spark plug.
3) Hyper Ground wire from batt negative to left side of chassis, just above connection for Engine harness-to-chassis ground wire.
4) Hyper Ground wire from batt negative to right side of chassis, exactly opposite the one on the left side (for these I bought bolts to thread into the pre-threaded holes in the chassis).
5) Hyper Ground wire from right side of chassis (same point as #4) to the UIM (same point as #1).
6) Hyper Ground wire from the UIM (same point as #5) to the engine block above the rear trailing plug (same point as #2).
7) Hyper Ground wire from engine block above the rear trailing plug (same point as #6) to left side of chassis (same point as #3).
You can see the Hyper Ground wires make a full circle around the engine compartment. Even if you removed the chassis and engine, the wires are still making a full circle lug-to-lug from the negative lug on the battery, around the compartment, back to the negative lug (this is called the "Circle Earth" system in Japan). To add all those wires to the UIM I removed the block hanger at that point, which can easily be reinstalled if I need to pull the engine! At every ground connection, I coated the area (bolt head, lug, anywhere I sanded off paint) with a battery-terminal anticorrosive gel I got at AutoZone. In addition to all this, I replaced the two V-belts on the engine as recommended by a different site.
When I first drove the car doing most of this, I had all of the above done except wire #4. The car was fully warmed up before I drove it, and twice in the same drive I had the bucking problem! CRAP! All that work for nothing, right? Well, then I did the following things:
- Installed wire #4
- Bought 1A battery charger, charged battery to 13.2V (charging voltage not rest voltage). Rest voltage went from 12.6V to 13.1V
- Disconnected negative on battery, pressed brake for 30 seconds to reset ECU
- Retension V-belts, which had stretched (I have the Krikit II gauge to measure belt tension).
After that, I have driven the car for a month with NO HESITATION PROBLEM. No bucking, no hesitation even when cold. My battery voltage is back down to 12.6V rest voltage and still no hesitation issues, although I plan to use the little charger monthly or so. I'm not going to theorize which of the above things fixed the problem, I'm just happy that all of the above work was worth it.
I'm not trying to advertise for Hyper Ground here, as I said I would make new cables myself if I could go back, but in addition to all of the above the car is DEFINITELY smoother at low RPM. Transitions from steady-state to on-throttle to off-throttle are a noticeably smoother. This is especially true when transitioning from deceleration to acceleration at low RPM in 2nd, like when a light turns green in front of you or after a speed bump. I went from driving an obviously turbo-ed, somewhat temperamental car to one in which I can make myself believe there's no turbo under there. Until the transition at least!
Now I just need to solve my low-boost-at transition problem!
I purchased the full-on $120+ Hyper Ground system, which I wouldn't have done had I just had the instructions on where to put wires! I'm not saying it was a waste of money since the cables were well made, but I could easily have made my own from scratch. In the end, the directions were kind of ambiguous since they are not specific to the RX-7, but I followed the basic recommended layout and the cables just fit at my chosen connection locations, which was nice not to have a lot of extra cable length. In addition I put on a few custom-made ground wires, which may have been overkill but here's my story:
Symptoms: 3K hesitation (more like 2800-2900rpm hesitation). When cold: At partial throttle acceleration through 3K rpm, ALWAYS hesitation. Did not appear at high load/fast acceleration or when really babying the throttle. When warmed up: no hesitation, but intermittent SEVERE bucking (3-4 times back and forth usually), again at partial throttle, never at high load/fast acceleration. Intermittent means once every 1-2 days. Various sites have attributed this to confusion in ECU switching between single/dual injectors. I just bought the car (2nd owner), and it has done all this since I purchased it.
Solutions: Removed every ground wire, wire brushed/sanded lugs and connection points, and sanded paint from chassis where necessary. Did the same to the fusible links box on the positive side of the battery. Ground wires I did this to were:
Catback-to-chassis
Engine harness-to-chassis (left side of engine)
UIM-to-chassis
Engine harness-to-block (brass plate on lower left side of engine)
Engine harness-to-block (under UIM, under ignition coils)
Engine-harness-to ignition coils (under UIM)
ABS-to-chassis (I know, was probably for ABS only!)
Then I removed the UIM-to-chassis ground wire (has no rubber coating), cut it and put on a lug and turned it into a ground wire from the downpipe flange to the chassis (I used this wire since it has no plastic coating to melt on the very hot downpipe! This wire looks just like the stock Catback-to-chassis ground. I replaced this with a stereo cable replacement (two 10 ga wires) from the chassis to the UIM. In addition to this I added the following ground wires:
1) Two 10 ga. Stereo cables from UIM to Secondary Fuel Rail mounting bolt (found that recommendation on this site!)
2) Two 10 ga. Stereo cables from brass plate, lower left side of engine, to engine block at threaded hole directly above rear trailing spark plug.
3) Hyper Ground wire from batt negative to left side of chassis, just above connection for Engine harness-to-chassis ground wire.
4) Hyper Ground wire from batt negative to right side of chassis, exactly opposite the one on the left side (for these I bought bolts to thread into the pre-threaded holes in the chassis).
5) Hyper Ground wire from right side of chassis (same point as #4) to the UIM (same point as #1).
6) Hyper Ground wire from the UIM (same point as #5) to the engine block above the rear trailing plug (same point as #2).
7) Hyper Ground wire from engine block above the rear trailing plug (same point as #6) to left side of chassis (same point as #3).
You can see the Hyper Ground wires make a full circle around the engine compartment. Even if you removed the chassis and engine, the wires are still making a full circle lug-to-lug from the negative lug on the battery, around the compartment, back to the negative lug (this is called the "Circle Earth" system in Japan). To add all those wires to the UIM I removed the block hanger at that point, which can easily be reinstalled if I need to pull the engine! At every ground connection, I coated the area (bolt head, lug, anywhere I sanded off paint) with a battery-terminal anticorrosive gel I got at AutoZone. In addition to all this, I replaced the two V-belts on the engine as recommended by a different site.
When I first drove the car doing most of this, I had all of the above done except wire #4. The car was fully warmed up before I drove it, and twice in the same drive I had the bucking problem! CRAP! All that work for nothing, right? Well, then I did the following things:
- Installed wire #4
- Bought 1A battery charger, charged battery to 13.2V (charging voltage not rest voltage). Rest voltage went from 12.6V to 13.1V
- Disconnected negative on battery, pressed brake for 30 seconds to reset ECU
- Retension V-belts, which had stretched (I have the Krikit II gauge to measure belt tension).
After that, I have driven the car for a month with NO HESITATION PROBLEM. No bucking, no hesitation even when cold. My battery voltage is back down to 12.6V rest voltage and still no hesitation issues, although I plan to use the little charger monthly or so. I'm not going to theorize which of the above things fixed the problem, I'm just happy that all of the above work was worth it.
I'm not trying to advertise for Hyper Ground here, as I said I would make new cables myself if I could go back, but in addition to all of the above the car is DEFINITELY smoother at low RPM. Transitions from steady-state to on-throttle to off-throttle are a noticeably smoother. This is especially true when transitioning from deceleration to acceleration at low RPM in 2nd, like when a light turns green in front of you or after a speed bump. I went from driving an obviously turbo-ed, somewhat temperamental car to one in which I can make myself believe there's no turbo under there. Until the transition at least!
Now I just need to solve my low-boost-at transition problem!
Last edited by FtWorthless; 08-05-03 at 11:09 PM.
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08-06-03, 07:07 AM
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FtWorthless:
So did the grounding job fix the hesitation or the ECU reset? I tried the grounding job and I still have the awful hesitation you have. I have also heard that the fuel system is the culprit (2 stage fuel pump. Surprise! The changeover point is at 3k!). I am wondering if the ECU reset cleared something WRT the fuel system so now it works correctly.
What an irritating problem! None of the cars came with this problem from the factory. But the fault is in so many cars I can't help but beleive there is a gremlin in the car that everyone can get. But how the hell do we get rid of it for once and for all!
Any other theories?
So did the grounding job fix the hesitation or the ECU reset? I tried the grounding job and I still have the awful hesitation you have. I have also heard that the fuel system is the culprit (2 stage fuel pump. Surprise! The changeover point is at 3k!). I am wondering if the ECU reset cleared something WRT the fuel system so now it works correctly.
What an irritating problem! None of the cars came with this problem from the factory. But the fault is in so many cars I can't help but beleive there is a gremlin in the car that everyone can get. But how the hell do we get rid of it for once and for all!
Any other theories?
08-06-03, 07:39 AM
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Good write up Ftworthless. Damian you are the web master. 
I've got the issue as well. I went to Elliots and got 10 ga. cable. I guess I need to rethink the cable size. It looks like 6 ga. may be in order. BTW Elliots hardware has copper cable in all different colors, with connectors.
I'm going to replace my battery with an Optima as well. We'll see if it works.
I've got the issue as well. I went to Elliots and got 10 ga. cable. I guess I need to rethink the cable size. It looks like 6 ga. may be in order. BTW Elliots hardware has copper cable in all different colors, with connectors.
I'm going to replace my battery with an Optima as well. We'll see if it works.
08-06-03, 12:16 PM
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my .02
I have the HyperGround kit.
Biggest improvement was on my stereo, the aftermarket Sub and Bose setup was improved alot. Other than that, the car was really smoothed up. I still retain the 3k hesitation when cold.
I have the HyperGround kit.
Biggest improvement was on my stereo, the aftermarket Sub and Bose setup was improved alot. Other than that, the car was really smoothed up. I still retain the 3k hesitation when cold.
08-06-03, 10:48 PM
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sibleyg:
I don't really know what fixed it in the end, but if I were to hazard a guess it was the combination of the ground wires and the battery state-of-charge. According to the writeup on Rob Robinette's former site, the 3K problem can often be an amperage problem, which the ground wires help fix. However, a lower charge battery will source less amperage, and the voltage will fluctuate more with varying current draw. In my mind, adding the ground wires did little if the battery was at a low state of charge, allowing these fluctuations. Charging the battery seemed to fix the problem - I don't think this would have done it on its own, but in combination with the ground wires the ECU now sees a constant voltage supply and ground.
The only thing that confuses me is how my battery is back down to where it was but it still is fixed. That's where the fact I reset the ECU comes in, but I don't know. I'm pretty sure my ECU was reset before the first drive anyway since I had batt. neg disconnected for quite a while when installing the ground wires (unless there's some huge capacitors in the ECU box), but I still had at least the bucking problem. I have heard the ECU can learn (is that right or am I thinking of the Power FC or something else?), so resetting it may be important. It may be that due to battery state-of-charge I'm on the verge of the problem reoccuring and I need to keep the battery topped up, but I don't know. I'm intentionally leaving it alone to see if the problem was related to battery state-of-charge.
In reality, I was so annoyed that I just threw every solution I had ever heard for the problem at the car and I don't really care which one solved it at this point! (I never did use the BG 44K fuel system cleaner that I bought so it wasn't a fuel problem!) I know it would be nice for other people to know which thing I did fixed it, but I wasn't really trying a scientific experiement, and each car seems to respond differently anyway, which is weird. I would recommend that anyone who has done the ground wire thing without results at the very least charge their battery up and then reset the ECU. If the problem goes away for a short period of time and then comes back, a new battery, which will hold a high state-of-charge longer, may help.
I don't really know what fixed it in the end, but if I were to hazard a guess it was the combination of the ground wires and the battery state-of-charge. According to the writeup on Rob Robinette's former site, the 3K problem can often be an amperage problem, which the ground wires help fix. However, a lower charge battery will source less amperage, and the voltage will fluctuate more with varying current draw. In my mind, adding the ground wires did little if the battery was at a low state of charge, allowing these fluctuations. Charging the battery seemed to fix the problem - I don't think this would have done it on its own, but in combination with the ground wires the ECU now sees a constant voltage supply and ground.
The only thing that confuses me is how my battery is back down to where it was but it still is fixed. That's where the fact I reset the ECU comes in, but I don't know. I'm pretty sure my ECU was reset before the first drive anyway since I had batt. neg disconnected for quite a while when installing the ground wires (unless there's some huge capacitors in the ECU box), but I still had at least the bucking problem. I have heard the ECU can learn (is that right or am I thinking of the Power FC or something else?), so resetting it may be important. It may be that due to battery state-of-charge I'm on the verge of the problem reoccuring and I need to keep the battery topped up, but I don't know. I'm intentionally leaving it alone to see if the problem was related to battery state-of-charge.
In reality, I was so annoyed that I just threw every solution I had ever heard for the problem at the car and I don't really care which one solved it at this point! (I never did use the BG 44K fuel system cleaner that I bought so it wasn't a fuel problem!) I know it would be nice for other people to know which thing I did fixed it, but I wasn't really trying a scientific experiement, and each car seems to respond differently anyway, which is weird. I would recommend that anyone who has done the ground wire thing without results at the very least charge their battery up and then reset the ECU. If the problem goes away for a short period of time and then comes back, a new battery, which will hold a high state-of-charge longer, may help.
Last edited by FtWorthless; 08-06-03 at 10:56 PM.
09-02-03, 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by SERIES7
Sweet thread, I'd like to bring it back from the dead for those of us who are just about to put on these ground wires.
BTW, did a soych.
Sweet thread, I'd like to bring it back from the dead for those of us who are just about to put on these ground wires.
BTW, did a soych.
David
09-02-03, 09:34 PM
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Great, I welcome back this great tread. I wish I could add something worthwhile to it. I'm still working on mine one wire at a time.
Great job Damian.
Edit - 1000 posts for damian
time to celebrate
Great job Damian.
Edit - 1000 posts for damian
time to celebrate
Last edited by cpa7man; 09-02-03 at 09:43 PM.
09-02-03, 10:10 PM
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Damian, thanks for the nice job on the pics for the wiring kit. I followed them with no success. BTW, the heat from my engine started making my bright blue wires a dingy grey after 2 weeks.
FtWorthless, I tried the ECU reset (actually Chris Sanders at Banzai Racing, the local RX7 guru here in SE Michigan, did while checking a boost problem I developed, and surprise, surprise he did get a hesitation. I drive the car out of the shop and whatta-ya-know the 3K hesitation/bucking starts before I get 2 miles.
I don't know if I believe the battery state of charge theory. I have charged my battery, replaced the battery when I got the car and recently to no avail. I am much more fond of the dual stage fuel pump being the root cause. These cars never had the problem before otherwise there would be a TSB or something! Even something as simple as replacing the fuel pump woudl eb recommended. So why are there so many of ther cars with this problem, why so randomly, why so many theories and why no definite fix!
I am going out of my mind on this one. Even to the point of replacing the motor mounts, installing an ETB and ignoring the hesitation so long as the bucking motion stops making my CDs skip!
Any other suggestions are really appreciated at this point.
FtWorthless, I tried the ECU reset (actually Chris Sanders at Banzai Racing, the local RX7 guru here in SE Michigan, did while checking a boost problem I developed, and surprise, surprise he did get a hesitation. I drive the car out of the shop and whatta-ya-know the 3K hesitation/bucking starts before I get 2 miles.
I don't know if I believe the battery state of charge theory. I have charged my battery, replaced the battery when I got the car and recently to no avail. I am much more fond of the dual stage fuel pump being the root cause. These cars never had the problem before otherwise there would be a TSB or something! Even something as simple as replacing the fuel pump woudl eb recommended. So why are there so many of ther cars with this problem, why so randomly, why so many theories and why no definite fix!
I am going out of my mind on this one. Even to the point of replacing the motor mounts, installing an ETB and ignoring the hesitation so long as the bucking motion stops making my CDs skip!
Any other suggestions are really appreciated at this point.
09-03-03, 09:02 AM
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stock ecu for a touring edition. normal boost, nothin special.
Actually the wiring was a success to clear up a line noise problem I had in the stereo. No change in heistation though.
Actually the wiring was a success to clear up a line noise problem I had in the stereo. No change in heistation though.