H12 ABS Swap
10-17-09, 06:08 PM
#54
Ive been keeping an eye on this as well, I (as well as others Im sure) really appreciate the work you're doing trying to update/upgrade our cars. Ive been interested in doing this for a while and Im definitely going to be upgrading once you get it all figured out.
10-17-09, 09:50 PM
#55
It's done... I know where to source the connectors (for the abs computer), wiring, etc...
I'm more so interested in a few people trying it out before saying claiming anything.
I've provided proof that the part numbers (wheel sensors, abs tooth ring, etc) are the same. The last thing I really need help with is for someone to pick up one of the pumps & computers and install it. There are 3 of us 3rotor guys with down cars who are doing the swap but our cars wont up up and running for a few months at the very least. Someone else needs to jump on aboard and pick up a pump & computer and install it! :-)
I'm more so interested in a few people trying it out before saying claiming anything.
I've provided proof that the part numbers (wheel sensors, abs tooth ring, etc) are the same. The last thing I really need help with is for someone to pick up one of the pumps & computers and install it. There are 3 of us 3rotor guys with down cars who are doing the swap but our cars wont up up and running for a few months at the very least. Someone else needs to jump on aboard and pick up a pump & computer and install it! :-)
10-18-09, 09:01 AM
#56
AWESOME bro. Simply AWESOME. You actually FINISHED what I started a loooong time ago. Have the parts sitting in a box somewhere, but never got around to making it happen.
I am still a bit away from having my car 100% up and running, but I'm def. gonna give this a shot. And if it works, I'd be happy to make the kits with you =-)
~Ramy
FDNewbie Imports
I am still a bit away from having my car 100% up and running, but I'm def. gonna give this a shot. And if it works, I'd be happy to make the kits with you =-)
~Ramy
FDNewbie Imports
10-18-09, 11:39 AM
#57
I'm not interested in making a kit, just want my initial investment back. Someone else can make kits. I'm not one to answer tech questions or sales.
In fact, one buddy gave a brief run-down of a stupid customer who wanted part numbers from one of their kits(i assume the customer wanted to build his own kit).. my reply to him was along these lines
p/n 001: Our Kit
p/n 002: Shipping Box
p/n 003: Shipping Label
p/n 004: Packing Material
I've just lacked "customer service" for a long time :-)
10-18-09, 11:25 PM
#58
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I'm not interested in making a kit, just want my initial investment back. Someone else can make kits. I'm not one to answer tech questions or sales.
In fact, one buddy gave a brief run-down of a stupid customer who wanted part numbers from one of their kits(i assume the customer wanted to build his own kit).. my reply to him was along these lines
p/n 001: Our Kit
p/n 002: Shipping Box
p/n 003: Shipping Label
p/n 004: Packing Material
I've just lacked "customer service" for a long time :-)
In fact, one buddy gave a brief run-down of a stupid customer who wanted part numbers from one of their kits(i assume the customer wanted to build his own kit).. my reply to him was along these lines
p/n 001: Our Kit
p/n 002: Shipping Box
p/n 003: Shipping Label
p/n 004: Packing Material
I've just lacked "customer service" for a long time :-)
10-20-09, 05:08 PM
#60
Took some photos today with the ABS computer mounted (used the newer brackets that accompanied the computer itself). Also did a really rough fitment of the ABS pump using the US bottom bracket and top JP bracket - it *could* but to do this, a few holes would be needed to keep it in place - at the very least you can get some idea of how the placement will look and the amount of room taken up by the ABS pump.
A note on the bracket... I wouldn't run it this way, personally I'm building a copy of the jspec bracket (only reversed) to fit our cars. it sits the ABS pump (height position wise) in between wiper motor and the engine harness wall grommet. This is ideal, very ideal.
A note on the bracket... I wouldn't run it this way, personally I'm building a copy of the jspec bracket (only reversed) to fit our cars. it sits the ABS pump (height position wise) in between wiper motor and the engine harness wall grommet. This is ideal, very ideal.
10-20-09, 08:21 PM
#63
Good question.. Here is what Mazda said about the 2000 GF-FD3S:
Four-channel, four-sensor ABS - This is the best scheme. There is a speed sensor on all four wheels and a separate valve for all four wheels. With this setup, the controller monitors each wheel individually to make sure it is achieving maximum braking force without locking the wheel(s).
Three-channel, three-sensor ABS - This scheme, commonly found on pickup trucks with four-wheel ABS, has a speed sensor and a valve for each of the front wheels, with one valve and one sensor for both rear wheels. The speed sensor for the rear wheels is located in the rear axle. This system provides individual control of the front wheels, so they can both achieve maximum braking force. The rear wheels, however, are monitored together; they both have to start to lock up before the ABS will activate on the rear. With this system, it is possible that one of the rear wheels will lock during a stop, reducing brake effectiveness.
In other words, you can drive/corner the car harder without spinning out because the ABS computer able to pay attention to each wheel.
Four-channel, four-sensor ABS - This is the best scheme. There is a speed sensor on all four wheels and a separate valve for all four wheels. With this setup, the controller monitors each wheel individually to make sure it is achieving maximum braking force without locking the wheel(s).
Three-channel, three-sensor ABS - This scheme, commonly found on pickup trucks with four-wheel ABS, has a speed sensor and a valve for each of the front wheels, with one valve and one sensor for both rear wheels. The speed sensor for the rear wheels is located in the rear axle. This system provides individual control of the front wheels, so they can both achieve maximum braking force. The rear wheels, however, are monitored together; they both have to start to lock up before the ABS will activate on the rear. With this system, it is possible that one of the rear wheels will lock during a stop, reducing brake effectiveness.
In other words, you can drive/corner the car harder without spinning out because the ABS computer able to pay attention to each wheel.
If so, then going to this 4-channel ABS system does NOT allow you to drive/corner harder without spinning.
It does allow you to engage ABS and the rear wheels will be independently pulsed so each rear wheel remains at maximum traction.
My understanding of something like an Autologic traction control system, is you only need to install/read wheel speed sensors on the two rear wheels since a 3-channel ABS system doesn't have sensors on the two rear wheels.
Regarding bleeding the ABS system, if it's anything like the Mercedes ABS systems, a power bleeder at 30-psi is all that is needed.
:-) neil
10-20-09, 08:32 PM
#64
My understanding is that this 4-channel system is ABS, not a "stability" system.
If so, then going to this 4-channel ABS system does NOT allow you to drive/corner harder without spinning.
It does allow you to engage ABS and the rear wheels will be independently pulsed so each rear wheel remains at maximum traction.
My understanding of something like an Autologic traction control system, is you only need to install/read wheel speed sensors on the two rear wheels since a 3-channel ABS system doesn't have sensors on the two rear wheels.
Regarding bleeding the ABS system, if it's anything like the Mercedes ABS systems, a power bleeder at 30-psi is all that is needed.
:-) neil
If so, then going to this 4-channel ABS system does NOT allow you to drive/corner harder without spinning.
It does allow you to engage ABS and the rear wheels will be independently pulsed so each rear wheel remains at maximum traction.
My understanding of something like an Autologic traction control system, is you only need to install/read wheel speed sensors on the two rear wheels since a 3-channel ABS system doesn't have sensors on the two rear wheels.
Regarding bleeding the ABS system, if it's anything like the Mercedes ABS systems, a power bleeder at 30-psi is all that is needed.
:-) neil
I mean by that is it gives the ability to brake harder & later in turn taking a corner at faster speed & braking later.
10-23-09, 04:50 PM
#65
Alright Guys... I've got a good deal of PM's on the swap and info on how to do it, etc..
Here are the parts needed for the swap:
a) ABS Pump & Computer
b) Computer Connector (off the shelf Bosch connector)
c) 3 * 20awg wire about 7' long
d) Pump mounting bracket
a) ABS Pump & Computer
I bought 6 total from various places (I got four from an auto wrecking yard in Japan). I bought another one from ebay.com.au (which came with wheel sensors). So these can be picked up here and there. Expect to pay for the parts. I've not seen them "cheap" by any means.
b) Computer Connector (off the shelf Bosch connector)
http://www.bosch-connectors.com
p/n: 1928402198 / 88way connector
c) 3 * 20awg wire about 7' long
...
d) Pump mounting bracket
You can use the stock US ABS bracket (lower half) and build your own plate to mount to the JSpec pump or something. My view on this is it'll sit too high.
The JSpec bracket is a nice one to copy so for those interested - I'll send photos of what they look like or maybe you can figure it out on your own (say if you're going to mount the ABS unit where your HVAC use to be!)
Some thoughts on the swap:
there is only a 3 wire difference from the 3channel vs. the 4 channel;
you can cut(or as i prefer 'de-pin')the old connector and install the new Bosch connector, run three additional wires and you're done. I've managed to note the wheel sensor wiring, pump wiring, power wiring & even the diagnostics port wiring.
I've got nothing to offer in terms of the hard lines - there have been a few posts to websites with "better than good" quality brake lines with tool rental,etc.
I have not completed the installation myself - I've only managed to figure out the correct part numbers & wiring issues. I've toyed with mounting the pump and I've discovered (for me at least) i'd rather copy the JSpec bracket. Who knows how long it'll be before I get around to getting under the car and run brake lines myself - I'm hoping by then a few guys will have done the swap and can report on how their brake-line install went. this is one of those swaps where it can get costly pretty fast so I think if a few of us join up and tackle the swap from different ends that we can keep coats down on this.
I've had a handful of questions asking about one of the units I've got stateside..
still have some left but I can't promise you a direct bolt-on type of swap but surely will help along the way - i'm in it too.
Here are the parts needed for the swap:
a) ABS Pump & Computer
b) Computer Connector (off the shelf Bosch connector)
c) 3 * 20awg wire about 7' long
d) Pump mounting bracket
a) ABS Pump & Computer
I bought 6 total from various places (I got four from an auto wrecking yard in Japan). I bought another one from ebay.com.au (which came with wheel sensors). So these can be picked up here and there. Expect to pay for the parts. I've not seen them "cheap" by any means.
b) Computer Connector (off the shelf Bosch connector)
http://www.bosch-connectors.com
p/n: 1928402198 / 88way connector
c) 3 * 20awg wire about 7' long
...
d) Pump mounting bracket
You can use the stock US ABS bracket (lower half) and build your own plate to mount to the JSpec pump or something. My view on this is it'll sit too high.
The JSpec bracket is a nice one to copy so for those interested - I'll send photos of what they look like or maybe you can figure it out on your own (say if you're going to mount the ABS unit where your HVAC use to be!)
Some thoughts on the swap:
there is only a 3 wire difference from the 3channel vs. the 4 channel;
you can cut(or as i prefer 'de-pin')the old connector and install the new Bosch connector, run three additional wires and you're done. I've managed to note the wheel sensor wiring, pump wiring, power wiring & even the diagnostics port wiring.
I've got nothing to offer in terms of the hard lines - there have been a few posts to websites with "better than good" quality brake lines with tool rental,etc.
I have not completed the installation myself - I've only managed to figure out the correct part numbers & wiring issues. I've toyed with mounting the pump and I've discovered (for me at least) i'd rather copy the JSpec bracket. Who knows how long it'll be before I get around to getting under the car and run brake lines myself - I'm hoping by then a few guys will have done the swap and can report on how their brake-line install went. this is one of those swaps where it can get costly pretty fast so I think if a few of us join up and tackle the swap from different ends that we can keep coats down on this.
I've had a handful of questions asking about one of the units I've got stateside..
still have some left but I can't promise you a direct bolt-on type of swap but surely will help along the way - i'm in it too.
Last edited by hwnd; 10-23-09 at 04:57 PM.
10-23-09, 05:47 PM
#67
b) Computer Connector (off the shelf Bosch connector)
http://www.bosch-connectors.com
p/n: 1928402198 / 88way connector
c) 3 * 20awg wire about 7' long
Is the pump lighter than the 93 - 94 pump like the 95 unit was or heavier?
10-24-09, 12:19 AM
#70
I made a mistake
The wheel sensor part numbers ARE different.
As you can see they're off (FD01 vs. F1). I'm surprised I didn't notice that mistake.
I've included screen shots showing the part numbers as they are - no more mistakes!
10-24-09, 12:22 AM
#71
Now does this mean the sensors function differently? no
Since the ABS unit is flashable - I *may* look into the idea of flashing the cpu's (abs computer has two cpu's on board) and adjust for the us-wheel sensors. but i think its far more important to see if they actually function differently.
I do have two sets of wheel sensors (both sets came from '01+ model fd's).
Since the ABS unit is flashable - I *may* look into the idea of flashing the cpu's (abs computer has two cpu's on board) and adjust for the us-wheel sensors. but i think its far more important to see if they actually function differently.
I do have two sets of wheel sensors (both sets came from '01+ model fd's).
10-24-09, 01:37 AM
#72
Let's now give up just yet... I'm noticing that the 16bit ECU went back a lot further than anyone may have thought. I'm seeing the 16bit ECU part number on H7 model FD's (starting with vin: FD3S-407533 / Type-RS).
I'll dig around a little more and see if wheel sensors were interchanged or not.
I'll dig around a little more and see if wheel sensors were interchanged or not.
10-24-09, 02:52 AM
#73
H7 & H10 w/ 16bit ECU
Front Wheel Sensors
FD04-43-70XC
FD04-43-73XD
Rear Wheel Sensors
FD04-43-71YC
FD04-43-72YC
US Wheel sensors from a '94
Front Wheel Sensors
FD05-43-70XB
FD05-43-73XC
Rear Wheel Sensors
FD04-43-71YC
FD04-43-72YC
I think we're just fine on the wheel sensors folks. I say this only because the "99 spec" ECU was used in the '97 model cars with those FD04 wheel sensors - and thats really where it counts - the sensors are wired to the ECU and nothing else. Seems the wheel sensors where interchanged with this ABS Computer. My sensors might show different resistance-readings for many reasons (bad meter, bad wire, who knows) or they might be right on. Perhaps resistance isn't an issue with the ABS Computer? I'm not sure. Either way, I'm still running 'em.
Front Wheel Sensors
FD04-43-70XC
FD04-43-73XD
Rear Wheel Sensors
FD04-43-71YC
FD04-43-72YC
US Wheel sensors from a '94
Front Wheel Sensors
FD05-43-70XB
FD05-43-73XC
Rear Wheel Sensors
FD04-43-71YC
FD04-43-72YC
I think we're just fine on the wheel sensors folks. I say this only because the "99 spec" ECU was used in the '97 model cars with those FD04 wheel sensors - and thats really where it counts - the sensors are wired to the ECU and nothing else. Seems the wheel sensors where interchanged with this ABS Computer. My sensors might show different resistance-readings for many reasons (bad meter, bad wire, who knows) or they might be right on. Perhaps resistance isn't an issue with the ABS Computer? I'm not sure. Either way, I'm still running 'em.
Last edited by hwnd; 10-24-09 at 02:58 AM.
10-24-09, 05:02 AM
#74
Very nice write up!
I am currently working FD3S-4xxx Type-RS RHD-LHD conversion
I can tell that it has same 314mm RZ or 99 spec RS-RZ brakes, brake booster, ABS sensors.
But still it is 3-way, ABS pump is slightly different and overall got only one brake line to rear end.
ABS sensors look same. I am concerned regarding ABS sensor wheels. Will try to measure gaps to see if there was any difference between 94 USDM - 8 bit, 97JDM - 16 bit respectively.
My plans were to make it work with 94 USDM ABS cpu, but now getting excited of making it 4-way as it is allready 16bit.
I am currently working FD3S-4xxx Type-RS RHD-LHD conversion
I can tell that it has same 314mm RZ or 99 spec RS-RZ brakes, brake booster, ABS sensors.
But still it is 3-way, ABS pump is slightly different and overall got only one brake line to rear end.
ABS sensors look same. I am concerned regarding ABS sensor wheels. Will try to measure gaps to see if there was any difference between 94 USDM - 8 bit, 97JDM - 16 bit respectively.
My plans were to make it work with 94 USDM ABS cpu, but now getting excited of making it 4-way as it is allready 16bit.
10-24-09, 06:12 AM
#75
Very nice write up!
I am currently working FD3S-4xxx Type-RS RHD-LHD conversion
I can tell that it has same 314mm RZ or 99 spec RS-RZ brakes, brake booster, ABS sensors.
But still it is 3-way, ABS pump is slightly different and overall got only one brake line to rear end.
ABS sensors look same. I am concerned regarding ABS sensor wheels. Will try to measure gaps to see if there was any difference between 94 USDM - 8 bit, 97JDM - 16 bit respectively.
My plans were to make it work with 94 USDM ABS cpu, but now getting excited of making it 4-way as it is allready 16bit.
I am currently working FD3S-4xxx Type-RS RHD-LHD conversion
I can tell that it has same 314mm RZ or 99 spec RS-RZ brakes, brake booster, ABS sensors.
But still it is 3-way, ABS pump is slightly different and overall got only one brake line to rear end.
ABS sensors look same. I am concerned regarding ABS sensor wheels. Will try to measure gaps to see if there was any difference between 94 USDM - 8 bit, 97JDM - 16 bit respectively.
My plans were to make it work with 94 USDM ABS cpu, but now getting excited of making it 4-way as it is allready 16bit.
mind checking the vin and computer for me?