IslandUnderdogFD

Greetings all,
After a very near miss with a ditch and a sweeping left corner, my FD was left dirty but okay. That said, while I'm aware it was ultimately my own stupidity that put me into said ditch, this was the second instance of my tires suddenly losing traction at very inconvenient times. And now that I'm stuck shopping for tires since one got mutilated, I'm wondering if stickier tires alone are the correct solution, or would aero assist maybe be a good idea to explore?
For reference, I'm currently on Continental ExtremeContact DWS06's with a 540 or 560 treadwear rating, in 245/40R18 and 275/35R18 F/R. The only other suspension mods I've done are FEED coilovers with HKS tophats. Last time I did an alignment I set the camber to -1.5 degreed all around, with a touch of toe-in in the rear and zero total toe on the front.

Any and all thoughts are greatly appreciated

cr-rex

iTrader: (114)

this can go pretty deep.... its not always a case of more or less grip, more or less suspension performance. sometimes its the driver or the road conditions. having the best (thing) in the world wont allow 90* turn at 80mph just as an example. i would advise going more into the ~200 treadwear tire range and giving those a shot. also keep in mind that these extreme high performance tires require HEAT to operate as intended. running them cold wont be an accurate representation of their performance. also in an 18 not entirely sure how many high performance options you have. a lot of the stuff i see is more 17. tire rack is a good resource for stuff like this since the reviews are so detailed. they even do video performance comparisons of similar tires.

ultimately i wouldnt completely rely on tires, suspension or a combination of the 2 to be your saving grace. sometimes its just the driver or road conditions but upgrading your tires anyway wouldnt hurt

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I have those tires on my Mazda 3. They are not the cause of your wipeout - unless they are bald.

Try and find what is often called a Car Control Clinic in your area. BMW Car Club of BC used to run them. Other organizations do also.

The technique of how and when you operate the controls (steering, gas, brake) play a huge part in high performance driving. Try and find an organization where you can learn more about that. Also, look into autocross.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

My personal experience.

The grippier tires I have the higher speed I wreck at.

My personal advice.
Put a square tire set-up on the car and learn what your inputs do to the chassis balance in a safe space.

The issue I had trying to learn to drive with front to rear wheel/tire stagger is you have a strong baseline understeer for most your inputs and then you will "feel" like there is snap oversteer sometimes (when a culmination of your inputs overwhelms the normal understeer state.)

I built my car 1st and then slowly took on learning to drive.

If you enter an autocross or other timed event you will understand what I mean. We ALL take pride in our own driving ability, but when you meet people who can really drive it opens you up to learning more.

Before I bought a new square wheel/tire set-up, I ended up swapping my staggered wheels around - so, 17x9.5 +40 up front and 17x8.5 +30 in back with square 255/40-17 tire set-up all around.

This gives nice turn in from slight stretch on front sidewall. It *looks* like normal stagger because of that front stretch as well.

gdub29e

iTrader: (16)

One of the truest statements I’ve read.

~ GW

c0rbin9

iTrader: (2)

+1 on Autocross. Personally, I can't imagine driving the limit of the tires on the street, and my tires are summer tires in the stock sizes. Easily good for 1 g of lateral grip.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

^These are all good points, but IMHO you were driving on Flintstones rock tires. Anything with tread wear in the 500's shouldn't be on a sports car.

Getting good tires is a good first step, second step is learning how to drive the car through a corner at speed and what to do if/when things go wrong. I will say good tires will help GREATLY at the speeds you can get up to on city streets.

Hit up Tire Rack's web site and put in your tire sizes. Look for a name brand you have heard of - if the brand is Fierce or Tiger, probably not a good tire for the car. Look for a summer performance tire unless you need a 3-season tire in your climate and will be driving when it's cold out, but summer performance will give the best grip in the warm (I'm from Florida so I have zero experience with snow or all season tires, so YMMV). Look around 200 treadwear. Yes they will be expensive, good tires aren't cheap. Get a proper alignment so you aren't scrubbing them into dust.

Hands down the tires are the MOST IMPORTANT thing on the FD. Everything about the car is designed to manipulate those 4 small patches of rubber that touch the road. If they suck, everything else sucks.

Dale

c0rbin9

iTrader: (2)

^ Agree with all of the above except for the 200TW recommendation. 200TW tires are the most aggressive compound you can get without going to a full race slick, and they're really for autocross and track use. If your primary use is street, you would be better off going with a high-performance summer tire.

For reference, the OEM tire on a G80 M3 is a Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, which is one of the high-performance summer tires. Others in this category include ExtremeContact Sport and Firestone Firehawk Indy500, which is a rebranded Bridgestone. These are the types of tires that the vast majority of modern performance cars are equipped with, and they are quite common for track use as well. They tend to have treadwears in the 300-400 range.

Some posters will disagree, but 200TW really don't belong on a car that doesn't see autocross or track use. You sacrifice ride quality, noise, comfort, and tread life for no real benefit.

silverTRD

iTrader: (37)

How wide are your wheels for the 275 width tires? I had this exact thing happen to me when I ran Azenis 615 in 275 on 9” or 91/2” wheel. The tires were mushroomed out past the wheel a little and made me have snap oversteer when pushed so it was unpredictable.

I switched to a set of similar tread wear tires but 255s on a 10” wheel and it was night and day difference. This was also 17s vs the previous 18” setup. Maybe that’s your issue.

My .02

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

IIRC tread wear ratings are established by the manufacturers and aren’t standard. What is a 200 something with one might be 300 something in another. It’s a handy guide but has some variance. And that being the case I do disagree with avoiding anything with a 200-something tread wear. There are also other things to consider when choosing a tire, wet performance, noise, ride quality etc. And each tire has a lifespan other than tread depth and they just get hard and old with age. Generally speaking I prefer to stay in the high 200/low 300 area. With decent rubber all being directional these days and a fairly aggressive alignments even stock I’ve found that’s a kind of a sweet spot in performance vs buying tires every other season.
Tire rack FTW

DaveW

I really like my Firehawk Indy 500's. Excellent grip, decent ride and 340 wear rating. Plus they are asymmetric, not directional, so they can be rotated to any position if you use a "square" setup.

Sgtblue

iTrader: (16)

I run those…and running square too. Forgot that they’re not directional. Best tire deal out there imo. Really like my set as well.

the_saint

I ran the Firehawk Indy 500s on my Subaru WRX STi and really like them. Great grip in the dry, good ride. Not a quiet tire. Excellent wear. I would run them again.

They were very predictable at the limit which I liked. I did not track them, so not sure how they would hold up in lapping situations but for the street they offer more grip than you can safely use.

As others have mentioned, autocross / seat time with instruction will be helpful to understand the limits.

A very good value tire.

Billj747

The Continental Extreme contact FORCE is a great daily drivesble 200 TW tire.

https://motoiq.com/project-fd-rx7-re...al-force-tire/

Get to some autocrosses and track days!

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

^^
That new 200utqg Continental is exactly why people are saying the new 200utqg tires are just new versions of "streetable" DOT legal race tires like RA1, NT01, R888(R), etc.

That Continental was developed by Hoosier race tires to compete in 200utqg autocross racing and even uses a variant of the Hoosier R7 race tire compound, so it WILL have race tire downsides (worse performance cold, heatcycle out, etc).

Several of the old DOT legal race tires are MORE streetable than these new 200utqg street tires and LONGER lasting despite lower utqg ratings.

They arw no doubt awesome tires and I would use them as I have daily-ed DOT slicks even in the past.

Just beware any 200utqg tire developed in last 8 year is probably a race tire.

Billj747

The Conti FORCE tire was developed by Hoosier (I know a few of the guys on the dev team) but it's designed for the WRL racing league where durability and heat cycles are at the top of the priority list. It's also fantastic in cold weather and does not need to be 'heated up'. Short of driving in freezing temperatures, or extremely deep standing water (where any 200TW tire will suffer) there really isn't any downsides to the FORCE tire. It's extremely quiet and comfortable as a daily driven tire, i'm very impressed.

Most of this new 200TW class tire are faster than the old 'standard' of Toyo RA1 and Nitto NT01, but some are more cold-weather/light car/autocross focused like the RE71R and A052, while others like the RT660 and RS4 hold up a little better to higher heat and heavier cars. The Conti FORCE seems to be the best of both worlds but just short of outright lap time for autocross or 1-lap time attack performance of the A052, but have better durability than the RT660 and RS4.

I respectfully disagree with the 'warning' of 200TW tires. I've personally daily driven A052s, Conti Force, RT660s, AD08Rs, and RS4s for years. For a performance car, I highly recommend them for daily driving if you don't live in freezing areas or constantly drive in deep rain -which a Conti SPORT or Michelin PS4S would be more ideal.

0.02

EDIT - I only have brief experience with the new Kumho V730 (in Rob Dahms FC) which is a 200 TW tire that looks like a slick. That tire I'm not sure i'd recommend as a daily driven/mild wet weather tire. But i'll reserve judgement until I spend more time with them.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I agree with everything you have written regarding the new 200utqg tire except that they are good tires for novice driver with no downsides (besides tire wear) over a less sporty all season.

There is just so much difference between the normal 200utqg heroic grip and their grip in situations where ALL tires have less grip that it can get a novice driver into trouble quickly.

It might be common sense that that shaded patch of road on your favorite mountain pass could still be frosty well into a nice warm day- but realizing that from a ditch on the side of the road is a hard lesson.

If you came into that same corner at 30mph (instead of 65mph on 200utqg tires) with your all season tires howling in protest you MIGHT make it out the other side since the speeds are lower and the all seasons work much better on frosty pavement.
At the very least you enter the ditch at a lower speed with less resulting damage.

Im saying this from the point of view of having lived through learning how to daily on DOT race tires. There were some situations...

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Absolutely disagree..... IMO after almost 25 years of ownership and driving at this point over 100 FDs, nothing fits the chassis better than a 200 TW tire. Most perform adequately in the rain, offer the grip that spirited driving requires, provide superior steering feel and braking performance, and (if the car isn't a true daily driver) will last many years. There's quite frankly an endless list of benefits for someone who enjoys driving their RX-7 the way it was meant to be driven.

400 TW tires belong on a Toyota Camry or a Ford Edge. I know you're a new-ish owner to these cars, consider driving them with different setups before making blanket statements. Not trying to be overly harsh, rather provide an alternate viewpoint

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I mean, I do agree.

But I also wouldnt recommend an FD to a novice performance driver to learn on outside of the safe confines of autox.

And if a novice performance driver is learning to drive an FD up to and over its limits on the streets I recommend(ed) a lower performance tire where mistakes will happen at lower speeds.

the_saint

Definitely agree. I DD a car with Michelin Cup 2 tires and it blew my mind how much more grip they provided over the OEM P Zero. And compared to how much grip the RA1 provided the tire tech is amazing. Even the grip provided by the Michelin PS AS4 (an all season) tire impressed me. Currently running them in 225/50/16 on the stock rims, while I chose my next tire (likely the Conti FORCE)

Looking forward to trying this on my tire. Need to 'refinish' my TE-37s, but debating going to a square set up as per the motoiq article.

As long as you are using common sense ( a lot of it), and can avoid driving when the weather turns cold, I would have no issues driving a 200TW tire in the city. If you live where there are down pours and you will be expecting to drive at interstate speeds, or expect to be caught in near freezing temps then perhaps a tire like the Michelin PS4S might be a better choice if you want to avoid going to a high performance all season (if you believe they exist).

After my upcoming last HPDE, I will be taking off my Cup 2 tires and putting on the Alpins as morning temps are dropping into the 40s (yes.... already) and I have no interest in being caught with the wrong tires.

Common sense is required, but I accept that for many it isn't that common.

Any drivers car should be rewarded with the proper tire for the proper season.

Due to my brutal work schedule and upcoming travel I am spending tomorrow putting winter tires on to 2 of our vehicles (that have summer tires for the summer). Those 2 cars will be receiving all seasons for the spring/summer/fall when the summer tires need replacing.

the_saint

Forgot to add....

I think that we should be thankful that we are living in a time where the tire tech has advanced so much! Many all-seasons offer traction that would rival a pure summer tire from 15 years ago. And the street tires (of the 200TW class) rival race tires from 15 years ago.

c0rbin9

iTrader: (2)

I'm sorry, but the idea that 200TW are the ideal street tire for the FD is ludicrous. Yes, it is true that competition tires like this have better comfort and treadlife than they ever did in the past. They still don't compare to a high-performance summer tire in these areas though, and their wet performance is comparatively poor. You're talking about a tire that has more grip than a racing slick did when the FD was new.

It is not as if tires like the Continental ExtremeContact Sport or Michelin Pilot Sport 4S are your grandpa's truck tires either. These tires are positioned between the 200TW tires and what TireRack calls "ultra-high performance summer tires". They have excellent dry grip (at the expense of some comfort/treadlife compared to milder tires), and come stock on many high-performance modern sports cars and exotics. Continental ExtremeContact Sport, for reference:




I agree that my initial post may have sounded dogmatic, and I don't mean to imply that one type of tire will be best for all situations - a lot of this is personal preference, after all. That said, I do think there is a tendency, especially in the FD community, to gravitate toward the most extreme version of whatever aftermarket part is available (the SHORTest shifter, most POWERFUL turbo, STICKIEST tires, etc.) That is fine if that's what you want, but I think many people would be better served by a more streetable setup. To get back to the OP's topic though, the OP asked (very sensibly) whether getting grippier tires would be the solution to him having lost grip in a turn. And to that, I wholeheartedly agree with the posters who said that if your problem is losing grip, you would be better off sharpening your driving skills at a driving school or some sort of competition (autocross, karting, etc.) rather than simply going to grippier tires.

c0rbin9

iTrader: (2)

delete

Billj747

My unasked opinion would be:

The ideal tire choice depends on your use and conditions.

200TW is fine for an FD (even an amateur) if you don't drive spiritedly or above legal speeds in heavy rain or near freezing weather.

If you drive your FD where you get caught in heavy rain frequently and want extra security, or if you want a little more longevity and you don't ever plan on tracking the car, the PS4S or Conti SPORT tire are incredible and still offer way more grip than what's safe on mountain roads.

If you drive your FD in freezing conditions.... Buy a different car as a dd

I've been caught out in heavy rain in Florida on NT01 R-comps and it wasn't bad if I drove the same speed as traffic. Sure if I had PS4S or Conti SPORT tires, I could feel comfortable with a lack of hydroplaning at triple digit speeds, but that doesn't mean I couldn't make it home from the track on NT01s in the rain without being safe.

the_saint

Don't discount your driving style.

If you are one to hang out the back end, or hoping to drift (until you are truly good) you may be better served with a tire with perhaps less grip, but great feedback at the limit.

Even if you don't plan to slide a car on the road, the grip offered today is at a level where you will be finding yourself in a ditch (as posted above). I think the reality is that most drivers will exceed their skill level and drive to the capability of the car, and with a 200TW tire find themselves in a situation they don't want to be in and will not be able to avoid a collision/accident/wreck.