DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Hey guys -

Well, through a stroke of luck I acquired an Apexi FMIC for a VERY reasonable price. It's the GT for the stock twins, comes with the air filters, etc.

I'm on the fence as to selling it or using it. If I sell it, I'll have most of the cash to get a decent used SMIC, which has been my plan. But, it's just damn tempting - bird in the hand, you know .

I VERY well know the SMIC/FMIC pros and cons. My car is a daily driver, I'd like to do autocrosses if our local region can find a new site (I would likely go on occasion, to have fun and qualify for Mazdacomp, but I'm not a hard core autocrosser) and I very likely won't be seeing any track time.

One of my big concerns is how well the AC will work after relocating the AC condenser lower for the FMIC. AC is a BIG one for me - mine's ice cold and gets cold quickly, which is good when you wear long sleeve shirts/ties every day for work, and have a wife who really likes AC.

Water temps are very much a concern, but that's an area I'd like to do my own testing in. I plan on ducting the radiator/IC nicely and monitoring things, also helps that we're in "winter" here in Florida, so things will be cooled off for some time.

Any advice would be mucho appreciated. You guys don't know how on the fence I am on this decision!

Dale

rotorbrain

mine performed quite poorly after the FMIC i installed. . . but it was in bad shape as well. it did work before, and made things worse afterward. i would assume you might notice a difference, though maybe not too terribly much with your a/c working properly. i ended up ripping mine out. . . which was a HUGE mistake. i now have to totally rebuild an a/c system. . . which im sure isnt going to be very cheap.

fsae_alum

I might be able to offer somethign relevant.

A while back, myself and a few Engineering buddies teamed up with an Engineer from C&R racing products to test a bunch or different radiators and fans (granted in a Nissan 240SX). Our setup consisted of a very sizeable Blitz LM FMIC. About 3" behind the FMIC was the AC Condenser, and less than 1" behind that was the Radiator (Koyo, OEM, C&R,etc...). Behind the radiator were teh fans (OEM clutch, Permacool, FAl, SPAL, ALtima). Anyways, we installed a datalogger to datalog air temps at the following locations:
Pressurized Intercooler Entrance
Pressurized Intercooler Exit
In front of the FMIC
In between the FMIC and the AC Condenser
Behind the Radiator
Underhood temp at the open element air filter (similar to the ever polular HKS racing Suction setup on the FD's)

We also datalogged water temps going into and leaving the radiator.

At about 85F ambient and about 85% RH, we tested highway cruising, drag runs, idling with the AC on full blast....all to get an understanding of the system temps and determine which combination worked best.

What we discovered was that the Intercooler didn't put out NEARLY as much heat as the AC condenser did. Under highway cruising and even drag runs, the pressurized intercooler exit temp was only about 3 degrees max above ambient. Regarding your situation, the air temp coming out of the backside of the FMIC weren't that high.....especially when compared to the air temps coming out of the AC Condenser. The AC Condenser would be hot to the touch (all while it was ice cold inside).

We ultimately discovered that the biggest helper in keeping the temps down was to make sure that ALL of the air went through the FMIC/Condenser/Radiator. We made up some temporary ducting shields to make sure that the air "didn't just take the easy way out " and immediately saw a dramatic decrease in temperatures.

In short, based on my actual experience in somewhat similar situations, I'd say that you'd probably be OK to run the FMIC intercooler as long as you provide proper ducting to make sure that the air doesn't take the path of least resistance (around the heat exchangers). If you really want to help out the system you could also place some good SPAL fans behind the intercooler to draw more air in at low speeds or when idling.

We put together a webpage on the test we did and the results we saw. I'll see if I can get to it and post a link for you in a bit. While it's not FD specific, hopefuly you can draw some conclusions from it.

Thanks!

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

^^This suggests to me that most FMICs are much too large. Remember that by moving the IC in front of the radiator, you're already making it much more efficient by giving it much cooler air to work with. Heat exchange is proportional to the difference in temperature: colder air across the IC fins will allow you to use a smaller IC and acheive the same results. Personally, I wouldn't even double the volume of the stock IC if you're going to go with a front-mount.


Here's another thing to consider: I've heard a rule of thumb somewhere saying that approximately 1/3 of the radiator's frontal area is occupied by fins and tubes, so your front air dam doesn't need to be much larger than 60-70% of your radiator's frontal area. In other words, your radiator is essentially blocking at least 30% of the airflow to whatever is behind it. Assuming that an FMIC will act the same, putting a large FMIC in front of the entire radiator means you've just decreased airflow to the radiator by 30%. Many aftermarket FMICs have huge end tanks that block the front air dam, so it would be safe to say you could cut airflow through the radiator in half by adding a big aftermarket FMIC.



I say ditch the ricer FMIC and get something reasonably sized, for instance the IC from an Evo or Neon SRT. I think a reasonably sized FMIC is a great idea, but I haven't seen many of those, and putting an IC in front of the radiator will usually require you to add a lot more piping, which yields a slower throttle response.



Better yet, I think a nice water (or methanol) injection setup would be a much better long-term investment if you want to cool your intake temps.

-s-

fsae_alum

^^^^^ Ahhh....but going to a larger FMIC allows you to put the end tanks to the sides of the front bumper openings, therefore not blocking the air flow completely.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Let's not get TOO off topic on FMIC vs. SMIC.

That's good to know about condensor performance. Looking at some install pics for the Apexi FMIC, it seems the radiator, IC, and condensor form a "triangle" so the radiator fans will still pull through the condensor.

Anyone with the Apexi FMIC, I'd appreciate any input.

Dale

Gorilla RE

iTrader: (1)

Dale,
we have a cym at our shop that we put a apexi fmic on and it works great! unlike the greddy fmic the apexi one doesn't really make that big of a difference with a/c performance. this is mainly due to the fact that the greddy fmic's piping comes up from the front/middle of the bumper causing the rad/cond combo to stand more upright (ie directly behind the core of the intercooler. the apexi fmic's piping is more "to either side" so the rad doesn't have to stand at such an angle therefore the condenser can sit almost "flat" on the under tray condenser ducting. i originally thought this wouldn't work well due to the fact that the radiator and condenser are not flat against each other so the a/c fan can have a direct "pull through" of the condenser. BUT the triangular affect between the fmic/rad/cond with the use of the under tray (of course) and some miner ducting around the edges it works just fine!! though no matter were its located with a fmic I'm sure a fan on the condenser WOULD help.
-J-

on a side not: this is my fav fmic due to the fact you DO NOT have to cut your bumper up. plus it is set pretty far back so its kind of "hiding". and its bar and plate type if that makes a difference to you.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I can't comment on the Apexi but here is my experience.

I've owned 2 FDs. One stock-ish with a Fluidyne and SMIC. Another with a Greddy FMIC and Koyo. The A/C worked better on the stock-ish car especially when driving slowly or in traffic. Air flow through the condensor helps provide cooler A/C. At speed it didn't make as large of a difference in the A/C air coolness but it definitely wasn't as cool. With the SMIC car, I wouldn't have the cold **** set to full cold. On the FMIC car, I would.

FMIC car's coolant temps runs about 10 degrees Celcius hotter (around 95C to 100C) in stop/go traffic in the hot/humid NE summer (ambient temps in 90s F). Fans set to activate at 85, 87, 89C.

I am running Evans in the FMIC equipped car but I can't conclude what (if any) difference that made to coolant temps in stop/go traffic. SMIC car used water + anti-freeze.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Good input here - thanks, guys! I do like the fact that the Apexi front mount doesn't require serious hacking to install. Greddy changed a lot of their front mount kits some time back to be as absolutely far forward as possible, so you get the big shiny IC look. That's neat, but you typically have to hack the crap out of the front of the car to accomplish it.

It does make sense that the Apexi front mount would do better on cooling due to the placement of the condensor. It also would be pretty easy to add another fan to the condensor and wire that into the AC circuit to aid in low speed/stopped cooling.

Thanks,
Dale

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

I have the APexi GT FMIC but the A/C is not reinstalled yet. I have to do some relocation because of the single. I don't want the lines running so close tot he turbo. The A/C condensor is underneath and tucks in to the tray but it is actually at an angle (maybe 15 degrees), so it is not flat as most people think and will get air from the undertray. You need to remove a section of the undertray for it to tuck inside. There is some hacking of the body for the core to fit. You have to cut the pasenger side where the intake pipe is, that peice of metal is in the way. You can do it with a dremel and some patience.

If you do not have all the relocation brackets for the condesor then you may be better off custom mounting it to the front of the radiator, so the fans suck air through it.

I custom mounted my radiator at more of a stock angle. I did not like it strait up because the bottom was below the sway bar. Now the lowest thing under my car is the wastegate return pipe to my exhaust since I have Widefoot sway bar mounts.