food for thought on reliability for our FD's.
10-06-05, 02:23 AM
#26
Originally Posted by mtnpass
The power levels of a renesis are far less than even a bpu fd..Most of us have dynoed 180-190 bpu+ (intake, catback exhaust , ignition control and grounding kit). While even a bone stock fd usually generates 218-230 rwhp.
How many miles are on your 8? Apparently these engines are starting to wake up near the 32k mark. Either that or the ecu is starting to lean out to more ideal A/F ratios and to the original factory tune. I think it's a combination of both. Check the link!
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=73523
Personaly putting NA renesis in a Fd is pointless since the rew is already capable of making more power in turbo charged form. Now puting a NA Renesis in a lighter 1st gen......is something to think about.
10-06-05, 02:29 AM
#27
Originally Posted by rynberg
First of all, there is no evidence that the Renesis will last 200k miles like previous n/a rotaries. Secondly, the cost of swapping a much lower powered Renesis into an FD would cost more than an engine rebuild and R&R. I'm perfectly content with replacing a motor every 5-7 years or so and enjoying 50% more power and double the torque of an n/a motor.
But think of the possibilities if you just used the race inspired Renesis short block (with intake manifolds) and fabbed a turbo charging system with a standalone ecu? I mean there is really no telling what this engine is capable of if built right however, I don't think the stock shorter apex seals in the Renesis will last up to 200k with out getting brittle and breaking.
Last edited by t-von; 10-06-05 at 02:38 AM.
10-06-05, 05:50 AM
#29
Originally Posted by t-von
I does have a PPF. It's a closed section PPF.
Some of you guys need to go search the Rx8 forum to get more educated. Some of you guys just don't realize how well that engine is truly engineered. There are racing organizaions that use stock Renesis parts in their race engines.
Some of you guys need to go search the Rx8 forum to get more educated. Some of you guys just don't realize how well that engine is truly engineered. There are racing organizaions that use stock Renesis parts in their race engines.
While the Renesis is the state of the art in NA rotary, it's not worth the effort/cost to put one into an FD. What racing teams do with parts has nothing to do with that. The FD benefits excellently from turbocharging, and the reliability at 10psi is still 'good'.
Dave
10-06-05, 07:13 AM
#30
Originally Posted by joeyz87
The problem is Asian people ( no offense) have a lot of pride, in 1995 the U.S. kind of dishonered them by only buying a few hundred fds. They had worked hard to produce a great car(fd) and we disrespected by not wanting it. So just like the aisan guy who left the craps table when the pit boss said he was taking to much time setting the dice. The rx7 left the us.
ANd all these years later, instead of giving us a new improved fd, they give us a car with less power, less torque, more weight and 4 doors. The turbo charged miata is cool though lol.
They gave us a much improved engine design albeit in n/a form and still reaching the power levels of a stock FD.
All the safety features, airbags, traction and stability control, stiffer chassis, improved suspension and brakes, a lot more interior space, etc., and only gained 200 lbs in the process? Wow, I'm very impressed! It's like comparing the original 1990 Miata vs the redesigned 2006 Miata MX-5, much improved, and still only 200 lbs more.
btw, the turbocharged Mazdaspeed Miata has been discontinued but the 2006 basic version already has the same power in a n/a powerplant
10-06-05, 08:18 AM
#31
No it's not Turbo'd
Originally Posted by dubulup
^I'm having trouble with your post.
10psi on stock twins isn't the same at 10psi on a 35/40...so, you can't say, "since you did nothing to add to the strain!"
10psi by 3000 not as quick as the twins??? I would get 12 psi before 3k with seq twins and a few mods <---again apples to oranges
10psi on stock twins isn't the same at 10psi on a 35/40...so, you can't say, "since you did nothing to add to the strain!"
10psi by 3000 not as quick as the twins??? I would get 12 psi before 3k with seq twins and a few mods <---again apples to oranges
but 10 PSI on twins = 10 PSI on 35/40 as far as strain is concerned... since we're talking about Pounds Per Square Inch (Pressure) and that doesn't change from Twins to Single, what does change is volume of airflow, and that's what makes the difference in power, I never intended to imply that there was no difference in final output, on the contrary, the final RWHP # should be much higher than on twins, due to volume of output... since HP = Volumetric Efficiency....
Bottom line if you have nothing but spare time, and $$ lying around the house, go for it, but if you're kicking $10,000.00 around like you hand out haloween candy, and want me to replace my 13B, I'll take an LS1 swap any day.... if we're talking 30k I'll go 3 Rotor... send to dcrosby@paypal.com
-DC
Last edited by DCrosby; 10-06-05 at 08:20 AM.
10-06-05, 09:34 AM
#32
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So the topic has become more interesting.
i should be a given to those of you who keep saying, "turbo rew has more torque then a n/a renesis" well no sh*t
it's a turbo. the definition of "turbo" explains it all. what my idea is. ok. IF it we're a simple swap. it wouldn't be a bad idea. even IF it only lasts as long as our "TURBO" rew's... you in "theory" woudlnt' worry any where near as much in emissions or detonation when tuning as much as the turbo versions. Also for the mr greddy kit barely works. i've seena few rx8's witht hose kits and they've haven't had a problem. b/c the owners haven't messed witht the kit. UNLESS it has been properly tuned for more boost. **** my 93 base with top speed D/P and C/B was slowly but surely beaten by a rx8 on 7psi greddy kit. only b/c top of 3rd into 4th he was a little quicker. from a dig we we're even. again. b/c of the original n/a platform. if your crying about torque that much then dont' do it. n/a = less torque just means launching higher. what you think honda b/k/f series engines do? they already have sh*t hp then they add light flywheels etc. so they launch at 5-6K or higher. besides that fact. i personally think it'd be an idea to look into like the others said.
the reliability issue is a hope granted, hopefully tru. we'll find out in a few K miles. if they start grenading. my idea mainly is. 10hp short of a FD, the engine i "think" is lighter than ours anyway. plus we'll dump al the turbo weight. helpign out more. and parts are so much more available for the renesis then the rew. we're scavenging remachined parts and salvage parts.
shoot. the majority of all the lemans and grand am etc rx8's racing are getting good places or winning with damn near if not STOCK engines. and out lasting... that's a hell of a feat. my .02.
mayeb i'm just a dreamer
los
i should be a given to those of you who keep saying, "turbo rew has more torque then a n/a renesis" well no sh*t
it's a turbo. the definition of "turbo" explains it all. what my idea is. ok. IF it we're a simple swap. it wouldn't be a bad idea. even IF it only lasts as long as our "TURBO" rew's... you in "theory" woudlnt' worry any where near as much in emissions or detonation when tuning as much as the turbo versions. Also for the mr greddy kit barely works. i've seena few rx8's witht hose kits and they've haven't had a problem. b/c the owners haven't messed witht the kit. UNLESS it has been properly tuned for more boost. **** my 93 base with top speed D/P and C/B was slowly but surely beaten by a rx8 on 7psi greddy kit. only b/c top of 3rd into 4th he was a little quicker. from a dig we we're even. again. b/c of the original n/a platform. if your crying about torque that much then dont' do it. n/a = less torque just means launching higher. what you think honda b/k/f series engines do? they already have sh*t hp then they add light flywheels etc. so they launch at 5-6K or higher. besides that fact. i personally think it'd be an idea to look into like the others said. the reliability issue is a hope granted, hopefully tru. we'll find out in a few K miles. if they start grenading. my idea mainly is. 10hp short of a FD, the engine i "think" is lighter than ours anyway. plus we'll dump al the turbo weight. helpign out more. and parts are so much more available for the renesis then the rew. we're scavenging remachined parts and salvage parts.
shoot. the majority of all the lemans and grand am etc rx8's racing are getting good places or winning with damn near if not STOCK engines. and out lasting... that's a hell of a feat. my .02.
mayeb i'm just a dreamer
los
10-06-05, 10:21 AM
#33
Originally Posted by Nat6c
Also for the mr greddy kit barely works. i've seena few rx8's witht hose kits and they've haven't had a problem. b/c the owners haven't messed witht the kit. UNLESS it has been properly tuned for more boost.
http://www.darylsphotos.com/7-13-200...iors%20034.htm
The above car has the GReddy turbo kit. It doesn't add a lot of power, but definitely more than stock (he's not whipping on my M3 just yet). However, the coils on the RX-8 are even worse than the FD's. People are frying those things especially when trying to run the turbo kits. My buddy's RX-8 was just flat out going into limp mode on the track with the turbo installed. You obviously haven't had any first hand experience with seeing what happens with the kit.
Not to say you can't make and RX-8 fast, it's just not as easy as bolting on a turbo kit and calling it a day.
Originally Posted by Nat6c
**** my 93 base with top speed D/P and C/B was slowly but surely beaten by a rx8 on 7psi greddy kit. only b/c top of 3rd into 4th he was a little quicker. from a dig we we're even. again. b/c of the original n/a platform.
Now, you can take that Greddy turbo and use a different ECU like the new Intercepter and eek out 280-290rwhp (supposedly). But then you are back to your reliability issues by running a small turbo with a lot of PSI (thus creating a lot of heat and high charge temps).
10-06-05, 10:41 AM
#34
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Like i said the yello rx8 with the 7-8psi was tuned correctly. it's not like he smoked me. just from top of 3rd into 4th he was startign to slowly creep away. i didn't say it was a stock greddy kit. i've eaten the other rx8's around here alive with/without em. 
with any aftermarket turbo kit you have to make yourown upgrades. unless it's a full kit. hence why their 2-3k or more. a $1-1500 turbo kit is always missing somethign you'll need.
los
with any aftermarket turbo kit you have to make yourown upgrades. unless it's a full kit. hence why their 2-3k or more. a $1-1500 turbo kit is always missing somethign you'll need. los
10-06-05, 10:55 AM
#35
Originally Posted by Nat6c
Like i said the yello rx8 with the 7-8psi was tuned correctly. it's not like he smoked me. just from top of 3rd into 4th he was startign to slowly creep away. i didn't say it was a stock greddy kit. i've eaten the other rx8's around here alive with/without em. with any aftermarket turbo kit you have to make yourown upgrades. unless it's a full kit. hence why their 2-3k or more. a $1-1500 turbo kit is always missing somethign you'll need.
los
with any aftermarket turbo kit you have to make yourown upgrades. unless it's a full kit. hence why their 2-3k or more. a $1-1500 turbo kit is always missing somethign you'll need. los
http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/gr...x8%20turbo.htm
10-06-05, 11:03 AM
#36
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they say its' complete. but. i dunno maybe my definition of a "Complete" turbo kit is different from others. i guess the subject here is dead anyways 
but it was an idea.
los.
but it was an idea.
los.
10-06-05, 11:07 AM
#37
Originally Posted by Nat6c
they say its' complete. but. i dunno maybe my definition of a "Complete" turbo kit is different from others.
Heck, that's more of a kit than what you'll get on the FD. Turbo "kits" for the FD 'assume' you know what else you need beside the turbo, manifold, downpipe (maybe a wastegate and oil lines depending on the manufacturer).
10-06-05, 06:54 PM
#39
No it's not Turbo'd
Originally Posted by Mahjik
It is a complete kit as you can take a stock RX-8, and you have everything you need to the turbo install and have the car run. What do you think is missing?
Heck, that's more of a kit than what you'll get on the FD. Turbo "kits" for the FD 'assume' you know what else you need beside the turbo, manifold, downpipe (maybe a wastegate and oil lines depending on the manufacturer).
Heck, that's more of a kit than what you'll get on the FD. Turbo "kits" for the FD 'assume' you know what else you need beside the turbo, manifold, downpipe (maybe a wastegate and oil lines depending on the manufacturer).
10-06-05, 07:20 PM
#40
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My friend, a track guy, has gone through 8 motors without water injection and zero with water injection. He recently dynoed his car and discovered the afrs were at 12.5+ at high rpm (probably due to a change made to the fuel system recently). Granted, he has done less track events with his current motor than with the other motors, but I think his experience is a pretty compelling case for the band aid powers of water injection.
10-06-05, 09:36 PM
#42
Originally Posted by DCrosby
Bottom line if you have nothing but spare time, and $$ lying around the house, go for it, but if you're kicking $10,000.00 around like you hand out haloween candy, and want me to replace my 13B, I'll take an LS1 swap any day.... if we're talking 30k I'll go 3 Rotor... send to dcrosby@paypal.com
-DC
Reted installed a NA 20b into an fc for less than 10k. It put down 223 rwhp on a stock un opened block. Hell that's better than what the fd gets with turbos and stock boost. 30k is only if you have the specialty shop do it.
10-06-05, 09:55 PM
#43
what about a basic renesis block with 13brew rotors and RA apex seals and a good single? should be worth more power than a 13brew block, breathe better so you have to run less psi, and be more reliable because it's being made with good (read: new) parts? or, to get around the mounting/ecu issue, how about a 13brew ported block with renesis rotors? lighter rotors+higher compression=less boost for same amount of power.
bench racing is just that, bench racing. throw around ideas all you want, but in the end, they're all still just ideas.
bench racing is just that, bench racing. throw around ideas all you want, but in the end, they're all still just ideas.
10-06-05, 11:38 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by DCrosby
I know the twins spool a bit faster, also my refernece was a set with a bad secondary turbine, and it didn't spool non seq. untill 3400 @ 10 PSI
but 10 PSI on twins = 10 PSI on 35/40 as far as strain is concerned... since we're talking about Pounds Per Square Inch (Pressure) and that doesn't change from Twins to Single, what does change is volume of airflow, and that's what makes the difference in power, I never intended to imply that there was no difference in final output, on the contrary, the final RWHP # should be much higher than on twins, due to volume of output... since HP = Volumetric Efficiency....
Bottom line if you have nothing but spare time, and $$ lying around the house, go for it, but if you're kicking $10,000.00 around like you hand out haloween candy, and want me to replace my 13B, I'll take an LS1 swap any day.... if we're talking 30k I'll go 3 Rotor... send to dcrosby@paypal.com
-DC
but 10 PSI on twins = 10 PSI on 35/40 as far as strain is concerned... since we're talking about Pounds Per Square Inch (Pressure) and that doesn't change from Twins to Single, what does change is volume of airflow, and that's what makes the difference in power, I never intended to imply that there was no difference in final output, on the contrary, the final RWHP # should be much higher than on twins, due to volume of output... since HP = Volumetric Efficiency....
Bottom line if you have nothing but spare time, and $$ lying around the house, go for it, but if you're kicking $10,000.00 around like you hand out haloween candy, and want me to replace my 13B, I'll take an LS1 swap any day.... if we're talking 30k I'll go 3 Rotor... send to dcrosby@paypal.com
-DC
A turbo efficiency is measured by the heat generated at a given pressure. While that is certainly a factor in making HP at 10PSI this would be negligible.
To increase volumetric efficiency you need to get more air into the engine, like porting which add more duration and flow to the engine. Booting has the same effect by raising the pressure or the air which improve the volumetric efficiency.
10-07-05, 07:52 AM
#45
Originally Posted by joeyz87
Even if they turbo charged the rx-8 is would make it heavier 3200-3300 lbs. So it still would not be as fast as fd.
RX-8's weight anywhere between 2950 lbs (base) to 3050 lbs (full option Grand Touring)
10-07-05, 08:18 AM
#46
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by t-von
Reted installed a NA 20b into an fc for less than 10k. It put down 223 rwhp on a stock un opened block. Hell that's better than what the fd gets with turbos and stock boost. 30k is only if you have the specialty shop do it.
-Ted
10-07-05, 08:21 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by FLA94FD
The boost pressure reading comes from the UIM. So the pressure is created because of the resistance entering the engine. More velocity would equal more pressure right? The boost only has two places to go, wastegate/BOV or through the engine. Assuming that the wastegate/BOV is regulating the pressure, velocity should be controlled by the engine consumption not the turbine. Please explain this to me if I'm mistaken.
A turbo efficiency is measured by the heat generated at a given pressure. While that is certainly a factor in making HP at 10PSI this would be negligible.
To increase volumetric efficiency you need to get more air into the engine, like porting which add more duration and flow to the engine. Booting has the same effect by raising the pressure or the air which improve the volumetric efficiency.
A turbo efficiency is measured by the heat generated at a given pressure. While that is certainly a factor in making HP at 10PSI this would be negligible.
To increase volumetric efficiency you need to get more air into the engine, like porting which add more duration and flow to the engine. Booting has the same effect by raising the pressure or the air which improve the volumetric efficiency.
10-07-05, 08:33 AM
#48
Oh GOD!
Not another thread about Renesis going into an FD.
Why!!! This mis-conception about renesis being better than 13b-rew is non-sense!
I've acturally talked to one of the leading figure in rotary world and he himself also said renesis isn't made for making power.
Only good think I could see about renesis is the emission and slightly higher RPM from the dealership. Other than that, it would cost more to get renesis into an FD (subframe, ecu, etc) and if you are going to go thru all that for possible increase in engine life?? I don't know, it just don't make sense. New always don't mean better.
If you are going to do all that, go LS1. close to 400 at the flywheel and get 30mpg on interstate. And proven to be reliable.
Not another thread about Renesis going into an FD.
Why!!! This mis-conception about renesis being better than 13b-rew is non-sense!
I've acturally talked to one of the leading figure in rotary world and he himself also said renesis isn't made for making power.
Only good think I could see about renesis is the emission and slightly higher RPM from the dealership. Other than that, it would cost more to get renesis into an FD (subframe, ecu, etc) and if you are going to go thru all that for possible increase in engine life?? I don't know, it just don't make sense. New always don't mean better.
If you are going to do all that, go LS1. close to 400 at the flywheel and get 30mpg on interstate. And proven to be reliable.
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