Which FMIC, V-Mount or SMIC for your FD? (FAQ)
07-06-08, 11:01 AM
#1
Money Pit
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which FMIC, V-Mount or SMIC for your FD? (FAQ)
As a relatively NB I figured I would take on this topic as my first real post dealing with a common question that comes up in the forums.
I have read many FAQ's, multiple threads and dozen's of website articles about this topic. It appears that there is not one single thread that addresses this question.
I am not expert in intercoolers and I want to make sure that I do not come across as an expert in anything because I definitely am not.
90% of this information has come from other threads and websites and 10% is of my own opinion which may be completely invalid.
Most of my information came from other threads and also from this little gem:
http://www.fd3s.net/intercoolers.html
Let’s get down to business:
Firstly what type of IC Mount?
Standard, Front, or V-type
SMIC
Standard mount or SMIC's are the most common and more often than not are cheaper than a FMIC due to smaller core size and less piping required.
Standard mounts offer advantages over the FMIC by the fact that they do not obstruct the radiator thus allowing the car to run cooler however some people advocate that they can keep their FD almost as cool with the right FMIC setup in terms of air-flow, nose cone and all of that good stuff.
Standard mounts typically heat soak more so than Front mounts due to their proximity in the engine bay and having a smaller core. Some people have worked around this by ensuring tight seals and using correct ducting so that the SMIC always pulls in fresh air when the car is moving and combined with small electric fans to draw air through the IC even if the car is idle.
SMIC's are easier to install and do not require cutting of the chassis/bumper and comprehensive piping which can increase pressure drop and turbo lag that FMIC's may suffer from.
FMIC
Front Mount advantages are a much larger surface area thus more cooling efficiency upwards of 25-40% larger than some of the larger SMIC's. Heat soak is less of a problem as the FMIC is located in front of the radiator but I'm sure it can occur if the car has been stationary for an extended period of time. IC damage is also more likely because of the exposure in the front of the car which is open to anything that pops up from the road.
Many people have regretted installing a front mount mainly because of the level of difficulty required to install it in the first place. Other people have advocated that it is the best thing since sliced bread. Some people just like the look.
V-Mount
V-Mount or V-angled mount is probably the most talked about and most desired IC. Typically V-mounts require battery relocation though you may get away with a mini-battery setup. V-Mounts are touted the best because they tie the benefits of a massive surface area similar to a FMIC but with none of the cooling detriments that come from blocking the radiator. The other benefit with a V-mount is that the piping to the intake is far shorter than a FMIC thus increasing efficiency of the overall IC setup.
In general V-Mounts and large SMIC's may require battery relocation and cannot run with the stock intake (M2, Apexi and Pettit intakes appear to work most of them however). Also V-Mounts may require removal of the A/C, Air pump and a whole host of other things. So in itself V-mounts are not trivial installations.
General
In general an upgraded SMIC is suitable for most people who want to stay around 350whp. Anything more than that will require either the M2/ASP Race SMIC OR a FMIC/V-mount setup.
A FMIC is for people who want more than that and they have dealt with the cooling problem. (I would not recommend it for people living in the south like me). Some people have used vented hoods, larger or 99' spec front bumpers and actual air-dams to increase airflow in the engine bay. Other's have changed their radiator fluid mix to 90% water and 10% anti-freeze. Some have used water spray systems etc.
A V-Mount is for anybody who wants to make massive power and maintain some readability or without having to make changes to the airflow in the engine bay.
Which IC then should I go for?
There are many to choose from and it really depends on your budget and what you want to do with the car.
I believe from reading many threads that the following choices make the most sense:
XS Power SMIC - some people have sworn by it. It's a cheap E-bay SMIC but apparently it's not terrible. I don't believe comes with any IC ducting which again is absolutely essential unless you don't want a functional IC.
Greddy SMIC M-Spec for budget conscious people. It is definitely better than stock, relatively inexpensive and easy to install. The catch is that as far as I know it does not come with any IC ducting. In order for this IC to be actually useful, IC ducting is required. I believe Pettit sells a standard IC kit that can be used for this particular IC.
M2 Small IC apparently worthless and I do not know anybody who uses it or has it.
M2 Medium IC is probably the best SMIC around. However it is also one of the most expensive SMIC's.
Blitz SMIC - apparently looks beautiful but it's not the best SMIC out there and it's a tad overpriced given its performance.
Pettit Coolcharge II and III's are excellent SMIC's and come with all the ducting needed to ensure no hot air gets dragged through the IC. These are equally as expensive as the M2's but you do get what you pay for when it comes to quality.
M2 Race IC is the ultimate SMIC but it does require either battery relocation or the mini-battery kit which is available at the rx7store. The price for this is generally the same as the Medium IC and performance wise it is around 20% larger surface area than the Medium IC.
HKS V-mount
I have read that this is very similar to the RX7 store's version except that it's HKS brand you’re paying for.
RX7 Stores V-Mount
Apparently a decent and reasonably priced V-Mount.
Greddy FMIC
I have not heard great things about it given the size
Other FMICs
I have not done the research
Overall for people who decent performance with reliability and do not want to spend $$$ on a V-Mount setup are probably best of with a decent SMIC replacement. I believe the key point is the IC duct - if the SMIC is not adequately sealed then you are going to have problems.
For other IC's are not listed I believe the two main parameters look out for are the following:
Total surface area (the depth of the IC is also very important) and number of rows
Pressure drop i.e. 1.5PSI pressure drop means that if you want to run 13PSI boost then your turbo's must generate 14.5PSI at X RPM to deliver that much boost to the intake manifold. Effectively the most effecient the IC the less your turbo's or turbo has to work and thus it will increase their life span and generate more power at lower boost levels.
Fundamentally the lower the pressure drop the better the efficiency of the IC.
Not all IC's are created equally, some may have a bigger surface area for cooling but may actually increase pressure drop because of the internal structure is more restrictive to the airflow going through it.
Anyways I hope this thread helps some of the other people out there who are trying to figure out how to best invest their money.
Btw if I have any wrong or anybody else wants to add color to the above thread please feel free.
Thanks!
I have read many FAQ's, multiple threads and dozen's of website articles about this topic. It appears that there is not one single thread that addresses this question.
I am not expert in intercoolers and I want to make sure that I do not come across as an expert in anything because I definitely am not.
90% of this information has come from other threads and websites and 10% is of my own opinion which may be completely invalid.
Most of my information came from other threads and also from this little gem:
http://www.fd3s.net/intercoolers.html
Let’s get down to business:
Firstly what type of IC Mount?
Standard, Front, or V-type
SMIC
Standard mount or SMIC's are the most common and more often than not are cheaper than a FMIC due to smaller core size and less piping required.
Standard mounts offer advantages over the FMIC by the fact that they do not obstruct the radiator thus allowing the car to run cooler however some people advocate that they can keep their FD almost as cool with the right FMIC setup in terms of air-flow, nose cone and all of that good stuff.
Standard mounts typically heat soak more so than Front mounts due to their proximity in the engine bay and having a smaller core. Some people have worked around this by ensuring tight seals and using correct ducting so that the SMIC always pulls in fresh air when the car is moving and combined with small electric fans to draw air through the IC even if the car is idle.
SMIC's are easier to install and do not require cutting of the chassis/bumper and comprehensive piping which can increase pressure drop and turbo lag that FMIC's may suffer from.
FMIC
Front Mount advantages are a much larger surface area thus more cooling efficiency upwards of 25-40% larger than some of the larger SMIC's. Heat soak is less of a problem as the FMIC is located in front of the radiator but I'm sure it can occur if the car has been stationary for an extended period of time. IC damage is also more likely because of the exposure in the front of the car which is open to anything that pops up from the road.
Many people have regretted installing a front mount mainly because of the level of difficulty required to install it in the first place. Other people have advocated that it is the best thing since sliced bread. Some people just like the look.
V-Mount
V-Mount or V-angled mount is probably the most talked about and most desired IC. Typically V-mounts require battery relocation though you may get away with a mini-battery setup. V-Mounts are touted the best because they tie the benefits of a massive surface area similar to a FMIC but with none of the cooling detriments that come from blocking the radiator. The other benefit with a V-mount is that the piping to the intake is far shorter than a FMIC thus increasing efficiency of the overall IC setup.
In general V-Mounts and large SMIC's may require battery relocation and cannot run with the stock intake (M2, Apexi and Pettit intakes appear to work most of them however). Also V-Mounts may require removal of the A/C, Air pump and a whole host of other things. So in itself V-mounts are not trivial installations.
General
In general an upgraded SMIC is suitable for most people who want to stay around 350whp. Anything more than that will require either the M2/ASP Race SMIC OR a FMIC/V-mount setup.
A FMIC is for people who want more than that and they have dealt with the cooling problem. (I would not recommend it for people living in the south like me). Some people have used vented hoods, larger or 99' spec front bumpers and actual air-dams to increase airflow in the engine bay. Other's have changed their radiator fluid mix to 90% water and 10% anti-freeze. Some have used water spray systems etc.
A V-Mount is for anybody who wants to make massive power and maintain some readability or without having to make changes to the airflow in the engine bay.
Which IC then should I go for?
There are many to choose from and it really depends on your budget and what you want to do with the car.
I believe from reading many threads that the following choices make the most sense:
XS Power SMIC - some people have sworn by it. It's a cheap E-bay SMIC but apparently it's not terrible. I don't believe comes with any IC ducting which again is absolutely essential unless you don't want a functional IC.
Greddy SMIC M-Spec for budget conscious people. It is definitely better than stock, relatively inexpensive and easy to install. The catch is that as far as I know it does not come with any IC ducting. In order for this IC to be actually useful, IC ducting is required. I believe Pettit sells a standard IC kit that can be used for this particular IC.
M2 Small IC apparently worthless and I do not know anybody who uses it or has it.
M2 Medium IC is probably the best SMIC around. However it is also one of the most expensive SMIC's.
Blitz SMIC - apparently looks beautiful but it's not the best SMIC out there and it's a tad overpriced given its performance.
Pettit Coolcharge II and III's are excellent SMIC's and come with all the ducting needed to ensure no hot air gets dragged through the IC. These are equally as expensive as the M2's but you do get what you pay for when it comes to quality.
M2 Race IC is the ultimate SMIC but it does require either battery relocation or the mini-battery kit which is available at the rx7store. The price for this is generally the same as the Medium IC and performance wise it is around 20% larger surface area than the Medium IC.
HKS V-mount
I have read that this is very similar to the RX7 store's version except that it's HKS brand you’re paying for.
RX7 Stores V-Mount
Apparently a decent and reasonably priced V-Mount.
Greddy FMIC
I have not heard great things about it given the size
Other FMICs
I have not done the research
Overall for people who decent performance with reliability and do not want to spend $$$ on a V-Mount setup are probably best of with a decent SMIC replacement. I believe the key point is the IC duct - if the SMIC is not adequately sealed then you are going to have problems.
For other IC's are not listed I believe the two main parameters look out for are the following:
Total surface area (the depth of the IC is also very important) and number of rows
Pressure drop i.e. 1.5PSI pressure drop means that if you want to run 13PSI boost then your turbo's must generate 14.5PSI at X RPM to deliver that much boost to the intake manifold. Effectively the most effecient the IC the less your turbo's or turbo has to work and thus it will increase their life span and generate more power at lower boost levels.
Fundamentally the lower the pressure drop the better the efficiency of the IC.
Not all IC's are created equally, some may have a bigger surface area for cooling but may actually increase pressure drop because of the internal structure is more restrictive to the airflow going through it.
Anyways I hope this thread helps some of the other people out there who are trying to figure out how to best invest their money.
Btw if I have any wrong or anybody else wants to add color to the above thread please feel free.
Thanks!
07-06-08, 11:30 AM
#2
Thats a pretty good informative write-up. The only thing I would like to add is that almost all of the SMIC allow you to keep your battery in the engine bay so you dont have to do a relocation. And they allow you to use a full size battery which is beneficial to those with a lot of electrical components, ie stereo system. I believe the only SMIC that cant fit a battery is the m2 large and the pettit coolcharge III.
07-06-08, 11:30 AM
#3
dorito powered
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 2,839
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well what are you looking for, as your information stated, if you want about 350 hp go with an upgraded SMIC, that's what I'm gonna do cuz I don't want any more than 350
07-06-08, 12:03 PM
#4
Full Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Guernsey, Channel Islands
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All depends on what your overall upgrade plan is.
The SMIC's are fine for the twin turbo setups, the front mount intercoolers (and the V-mounts) are only really of great use if you want big power or are running a single turbo.
Sometimes there always seems to be a compromise with the front mounts or V-mounts. Relocate battery to the boot, might have to lose the A/C that sort of thing.
And you have to remove the front bumper assembly to fit a front mount.
The only obvious advantage they have over the SMIC's is that they are out of the heat of the engine bay.
The SMIC's are fine for the twin turbo setups, the front mount intercoolers (and the V-mounts) are only really of great use if you want big power or are running a single turbo.
Sometimes there always seems to be a compromise with the front mounts or V-mounts. Relocate battery to the boot, might have to lose the A/C that sort of thing.
And you have to remove the front bumper assembly to fit a front mount.
The only obvious advantage they have over the SMIC's is that they are out of the heat of the engine bay.
07-06-08, 02:37 PM
#6
This topic have been beaten to death. although you read the FAQ, I would suggest you do a search on "FMIC", "v-mount", "smic", or add any "vs" in between because there are a few misleading points vmount and front mounts.
most V-mounts DO NOT require battery relocation if you run a PC680. you are ONLY comparing the ones in Rx7 store but there are other Vmount setups available. vmount is the most desired because it is the best setup where both the IC and radiator gets fresh air so you have same water temp as a SMIC and same intake temp as a FMIC. only downside is vmount setup must be well ducted to maximize its efficiency.
anyone can run a vmount even with a stock 255hp setup. its not only for high HP application. What is really effected by HP is the intercooler core size. whether its a 2 row for lower HP application, or a 3 row for higher HP setup. most vmounts are 2 rows for example Knightsports. Where HKS is a 3 row core but still can be used for stock twins or single turbo.
FMIC on the other hand, benefits most for Drag racers. due to short runs with high boost, cooler intake air is the best while you have time to allow water temps to drop between runs. Although FMIC blocks the radiator, reason for air loss often is due to the large gap between the IC and Rad. Especially if its not well ducted. Which is why Blitz FMIC or oldschool Greddy and Apex are better FMIC application due to the cores are sitting back to back. Reducing the loss of air flow for maximum cooling efficiency. Thats how all factory OEM cars are designed when they have a upright radiator.
Street application anysetup is fine.
Blitz SMIC have been discontinued long time ago
there's more to it, but just adding my .02. thx
most V-mounts DO NOT require battery relocation if you run a PC680. you are ONLY comparing the ones in Rx7 store but there are other Vmount setups available. vmount is the most desired because it is the best setup where both the IC and radiator gets fresh air so you have same water temp as a SMIC and same intake temp as a FMIC. only downside is vmount setup must be well ducted to maximize its efficiency.
anyone can run a vmount even with a stock 255hp setup. its not only for high HP application. What is really effected by HP is the intercooler core size. whether its a 2 row for lower HP application, or a 3 row for higher HP setup. most vmounts are 2 rows for example Knightsports. Where HKS is a 3 row core but still can be used for stock twins or single turbo.
FMIC on the other hand, benefits most for Drag racers. due to short runs with high boost, cooler intake air is the best while you have time to allow water temps to drop between runs. Although FMIC blocks the radiator, reason for air loss often is due to the large gap between the IC and Rad. Especially if its not well ducted. Which is why Blitz FMIC or oldschool Greddy and Apex are better FMIC application due to the cores are sitting back to back. Reducing the loss of air flow for maximum cooling efficiency. Thats how all factory OEM cars are designed when they have a upright radiator.
Street application anysetup is fine.
Blitz SMIC have been discontinued long time ago
there's more to it, but just adding my .02. thx
Last edited by RX7LINK; 07-06-08 at 02:43 PM.
07-06-08, 03:10 PM
#7
Teddy bears have claws
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eugene/Springfield, OR
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want a fmic, but don't want all the fitment issues, try looking at the APEXi GT fmic. It's sort of hybrid between a smic and a true fmic as it is in front of the rad, but still in the engine, so I didn't have to trim the bumper or rebar at all. I didn't have any fitment issues and the only trimming I needed to do, was cut about an inch off the ends of my HKS dual intake. It also let me keep A/C too.
I can't comment on any temp increase because I installed it with a brand new rebuilt motor from Pettit with enlarged coolant passages and the old dual 32 row oil cooler kit from rotary extreme.
The only downside was the instructions were all in Japanese, so it was a kind of a pain the *** to figure out which brackets were for what. I actually ended up making a lot of my own brackets.
Here's a link to rx7store's page with it: http://www.rx7store.net/category_s/112.htm
Oh, with this intercooler you have to be careful with what intake you use. The inlet is right where most of the intake systems like to put the fillters.
I can't comment on any temp increase because I installed it with a brand new rebuilt motor from Pettit with enlarged coolant passages and the old dual 32 row oil cooler kit from rotary extreme.
The only downside was the instructions were all in Japanese, so it was a kind of a pain the *** to figure out which brackets were for what. I actually ended up making a lot of my own brackets.
Here's a link to rx7store's page with it: http://www.rx7store.net/category_s/112.htm
Oh, with this intercooler you have to be careful with what intake you use. The inlet is right where most of the intake systems like to put the fillters.
