filoralph

i just recently upgraded my front brakes to AL 330 what other things must i upgrade? what master cylinder should i choose and bore size? i was thinking wilwood compact and porportioning vale

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

330 what? mm's?

you should upgrade the rears, change all rubber brake lines to steel braided, change to high temp fluid

I kept the stock master in mine.

Spalato

iTrader: (33)

the Mazda 929 MC is a popular upgrade when going bigger brakes...

ZoomZoom

iTrader: (2)

929 Mazda MC is exactly what you need. It adds a bit of stroke to push more fluid bit is OEM quality and almost a direct fit. You just make 1 brake line and you are done.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Actually it reduces stroke and increases pedal pressure compared to stock by increasing the bore and pushes more fluid given the same pedal travel. The 929 MC shouldn't be used with stock brakes but it's a good upgrade when using brakes with larger pistons.

filoralph

thanks guys i was looking at getting these what are your thoughts. good or bad?

Wilwood Compact Combination Master CYL 7 8" Bore Remote Reservoir WB 260 10374 | eBay

Wilwood Adjustable Proportioning Bias Valve Distribution Block Brake Switch | eBay

also im not going to be using for track mainly show and weekend driving should i take the brake booster off or leave it on. apparently chasebay do a BBE kit

Chase Bays Brake Booster Eliminator - Honda | Nissan | Mazda | Mitsubishi | AE86 - Chase Bays

Chase Bays Brake Booster Eliminator Combo - Chase Bays

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

No reason to eliminate it for a street driven car.

billyboy

I'd try without a booster before spending your money. Just remove the booster vacuum hose and plug the nipple...I suspect you'll like it less after that....a double check on insurance probably worthwhile beforehand.

The AL brakes, quite a few have balance issues with the various kits. Suspect they're the usual Taiwanese in origin. No dust seals on a street car always strikes me as bonkers.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

I have 332x32 fronts and 322x20 rears with braided lines on stock master cylinder (with brace) and stock booster.

I use Castrol SRF fluid.

I see no need for a master cylinder or booster change. This setup just works and will overpower street tires if pushed hard. Haven't tried track tires...

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I don't know that the brake rotor diameter matters as much as the brake piston area as far as feel and needing/wanting to upgrade to a larger master cylinder.

I put the Wilwood 6 piston 355mm front brake kit on my FD. The change in braking bias front to rear wasn't crazy bad (it is meant to work with stock ABS/rears), but the pedal stroke with stock master is a bit much for me.

I prefer a pedal that has less stroke and more pressure change from when you first start to engage the brakes.

I have found this is especially true with wide wheels/tires where you start to flex the spindle and push the pistons in on cornering or curb bumping.

It sure would be nice to know that the soft deep pedal means I have to pump it to have any brakes when I push it all the way down because the usual (larger master) pedal is stiff/low travel.

I raced a friends S14 with big Wilwoods front and back and a master upgrade and I really liked the feel- gotta get that!

RedBaronII

iTrader: (4)

929 MC is a night and day experience when you change it.
I went big brakes for the track and I did later the 929 and it was like stepping on a stone.
Feels awesome, do it.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

If the smaller cylinder will move enough brake fluid without an excessive pedal travel, then there is no reason to change it.

Here is the reasoning: Having the same amount of fluid moved over a slightly longer pedal travel allows for more precise braking pressure application. It also means you have more leverage on the pedal, so less pressure from the leg means the same amount of braking pressure applied to the brakes, albeit with more travel.

Stepping on a stone means you have to apply a little more force to get the same max braking pressure but you have less room for fine tuning your braking pressure. This would be considered less desirable to many.

The only reason I would want a larger cylinder is if i am bottoming out the brakes before lock-up, or my pedal travel is nearly full stroke to do so.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Stepping on a stone means you have to apply a little more force to get the same max braking pressure but you have less room for fine tuning your braking pressure. This would be considered less desirable to many.

The only reason I would want a larger cylinder is if i am bottoming out the brakes before lock-up, or my pedal travel is nearly full stroke to do so.

Have you driven a car with a big brake kit that increased the caliper piston surface area on the stock master cylinder?

Have you driven a car with a big brake kit that increased both the caliper piston surface area and the master cylinder surface area?

If you have larger than stock caliper piston surface area and a stock master cylinder your brakes feel mushier than stock and you have more travel for the same braking effect.

You say it isn't a problem and the longer travel means you have more range of pedal movement before lock-up. This is only partially true.

Just like a clutch everything for brakes happens at the engagement point. That is after you have pushed the pads through the air gap to the rotor and start actually applying force to the rotor.

With the smaller brake master you do have slightly more pedal movement per hydraulic pressure rise with the smaller brake master as you say, but it is offset by the much longer pedal stroke until the brakes actually contact the rotor.
The brake pedal movement to braking force ratio actually becomes less linear, not more linear in my experience.

I am going to try anti-knock-back springs behind the pistons to see if this helps limit this effect and possibly a check valve could also be used to help keep a bit of residual hydraulic pressure.

I hope to go to a larger master as well, but I think I will get a stock one and have it bored/brass sleeeved and use the larger 929 brake master's rebuild kit so its all 100% bolt on.

In any case, I sure would like a firmer pedal with less travel so I know when brake piston knock-back has happened and I have to pump the pedal again to start applying braking force to the rotor.

It sucks to floor the brake pedal and plow off course into something because you spent all your fluid movement getting the pistons to the rotor...

I would have to go up a class to get the RE-Amemiya more rigid spindles, so I am going to try to solve the brake pad knock-back problem with brakes mods and driver attention/feedback.

If the brakes feel soft on initial application, pump them- that would be the driver feedback.

RedBaronII

iTrader: (4)

Reading is fundamental.
What part did you missed?
The, went with big brake kit for the TRACK or after bbk, I did the 929 or both?
Talk from experience please, not from what your reasoning of Physics is.
No wonder everyone at the track with bbk go to a smaller Master Cylinder.
Thanks for clearing that one up.
I guess I'll go back to pumping the brakes and mushy pedal feel with the stock MC.

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

with many options for bbk, not every car will act the same. That said, I have RacingBrake front and rear setup with stock MC and it has much better feel and braking performance than before. I don't experience too much travel nor mushy feeling.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

Perhaps we have different definitions of "stepping on stone"?
And all of your examples would be too much pedal travel as I stated. Which in your situation would indicate a volume issue, thus a larger master cylinder makes sense.

As for having to press the pedal to the floor just to make up the gap between pad and disk, I have never had that problem.

Yes, I have done larger brake swaps (with calipers that required more volume) before. I did experience the need to go to a larger bore as i did not like the feel of the longer pedal travel in that vehicle (and it was close to bottoming out). I have also had the opposite experience, with the result being slightly longer pedal travel until lockup. (I never had to double pump the brakes to make up pad gap though, perhaps this would have changed my opinion on this?)

So instead of questioning the person making the statement, perhaps see that I qualified my post from the beginning. I personally do not want all of my usable braking force applied in the first 1/2" of pedal. That is what stepping on a stone means to me.


And, we have some misplaced anger from a keyboard warrior?

Your post is full of wrong assumptions and unnecessary jabs. I am posting from experience, and posting for the sake of explaining that balance is good. And preference also plays a part. I personally hate brakes that move less than half an inch (or so it feels) before I lock them up.

Maybe your 'preferences' are different, but I in no way insulted you or your decision to go to a 929 MC. So please refrain from the idiocy of your last post. You act like I questioned you on a personal level and I did not.


I made my post because there are more people on the forums than you. There are numerous people that read these threads and may think upgrading the master cylinder is a must, when it should be done in stages to get a balanced setup. At least, in my opinion.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

929 is a great upgrade. Chips Motorsports sells one that's machined so you can use the OE lines and don't have to fab anything.

Whatever the physics, the bottom line is you get a higher, harder pedal with whatever your setup is, compared to the OE MC.

I like a high hard one, LOL. If you like a limp one, hey that's cool, not that there's anything wrong with that.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

I wouldn't say "limp" per say, maybe more of a half chub?

For a dual duty vehicle, I like to have a bit more travel. I will admit I have never owned a pure track car, so the needs for that setup are a bit outside my realm of experience.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

So instead of questioning the person making the statement, perhaps see that I qualified my post from the beginning. I personally do not want all of my usable braking force applied in the first 1/2" of pedal. That is what stepping on a stone means to me.


If the smaller cylinder will move enough brake fluid without an excessive pedal travel, then there is no reason to change it.

You are correct, if you have enough brake force without excessive pedal movement you are good.

I could have replied by saying you are correct, but the condition of excessive pedal movement or not and excessive pedal effort or not is subjective.

Then gone on to explain as I did why I would prefer slightly stiffer than stock pedal and less movement and the conditions that I feel warrant that preference.

I have driven production based cars without brake boosters and I think that pedal effort is way too high and pedal movement... well, the pedal doesn't really move too much. You get some movement as you push the pads to the rotor and then you just push harder and harder with no pedal movement praying something will happen.

That is the other extreme I wish to avoid.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

Agreed on all points. My experience stops at limited track, and autocross with vehicles used for dual purpose. So I cannot count my input as valid outside of my limited experience.

As for brake boosters, I had originally planned on eliminating mine.... but I have never driven an RX7 without one. I ended up deciding to keep the booster for easier street driving.

jza80

iTrader: (32)

+1

I have the same RB setup with the stock master cylinder and the brake feel and pedal stroke are just about perfect IMO.