Okay, engine rebuild time.... I can go with Mazda's grossly overpriced seal set ($440 for just apex seals) .. and that is WITH an employee discount.

I began my search for better options....

Rotary Aviation has a complete rebuild kit for $580 that includes EVERYTHING except side seals and corner seals. I can reuse my corner seals and I can get side seals from Atkins as they are Mazda OE parts. I plan to use RA seals as they are said to be harder and I am looking for reliability here. My friend told me that their soft seals are complete crap and their springs have a tendancy to 'flatten out' so that basically makes most of the kit USELESS. It also included thrust bearings which was a added bonus as well. I'd still need to get the oil pan gasket, front cover gasket and a few other of the more external gaskets....

Atkins Rotary has a overhaul kit but it doesnt include nearly as much and it is $700! This didnt include apex seals, or a lot of other things for that matter... the only benifit is it has the external gaskets but they are aftermarket and I'm not sure how good they are.

Overhaul Gasket Kit (Aftermarket)
Apex Seal Springs
Corner Seal Plugs
Corner Seal Springs
Side Seal Springs
Oil O Ring Vitons
Front Main Seal
Rear Main Seal
Pilot Bearing and Seal
Thermal Pellet
Hylomar Sealant

I'm not sure what my other options are at this point for parts... I'm gonna recalc some of the Mazda stuff, maybe see what springs and side seals run from them.

Do the Atkins softseals suck like the Rotary Aviation ones? Any other companies to look at for parts?

Thanks,
~Kris

 

I don't think the RA apex seals are soft (is this what you're talkiing about? -- it wasn't clear) -- you might be thinking of Hurley.

-Max

 

I heard that Atkins and Hurley had softer seals and that Rotary Aviation had harder seals... I want the RA's because they are harder, I'm hoping they will be more reliable for that reason.

~Kris

 

If you read the Rotary Performance section, you'll notice that the eariler batch of RA kits, supposedly didn't have heat treated springs (which caused them to get flat). That was remedied a while ago.

 

http://www.jhbperformance.com/products/apex.php

Try these.

 

Bingo!
Most of the parts in the RA rebuild kit are top notch. My friend just put his RE together with the RA kit and used stock Mazda springs and Atkins solid corner seals.

 

adding this to my favorites list, was wondering which rebuild kit to get. The REdub is making some knocking that increases when I accelerate so I figure I'm gonna rebuild mine while I do the 5 speed swap, swap turbos (leaking), and 99 spec conv. quite a little project I have going....

 

BTW, don't use that Lucas crap with your 13B, it fouled my oil injection and didn't properly lubricate the motor. Screwed up my ****, don't let it happen to yours.

 

My opinion on this is to just go with the Mazda OEM.. It cost more but I think its worth the money. My cars been down for now... 8 months.. I would hate to try to save a little and later have to pull the damn motor again and down for another 8 months. I don't have time for all that and hence I got my engine built by someone who knows what they are doing and spent that extra money for all new parts.

 

Damn, apex seals are that much? Last time I bought a set of 6 it was like $200 total.

Just checked - Mazdatrix (which is always pricey) is $63 each, which is $378 a set. Any sort of discount would get that more like $300.

Dale

 

I agree.. Its hard to believe just apex seals are that much.. especially with discount.

Last time I check, it was mid 50s per corner.

 

I use atkins parts in most of my rebuilds...theyre almost always readily accessible, and work well with a used housing rebuild. IF youre using new rotorhousings, you can use atkins seals as well, but I might also recommend that you step up to a harder seal like mazda or rotaryaviation. The beauty of atkins seals is that theyre soft enough to break in quickly to used housings, yet strong enough to hold up to some pretty good abuse.

As for mazda seals, theyre well proven and hold up well, but the recent switch to 2pc rx-8 seals has a few people nervous, especially when some were having warpage problems from modified engines running these. Still, theyre generally regarded as being a bit harder than atkins seals, and still hold up well most of the time. If reusing housings you'll have a slightly longer breakin since theyre a bit of a harder seal.

For rotaryaviation seals, theyre pretty new to the market but I've heard of no bad stories (since the production issues were handled last year). I've used a few sets myself in engines I knew would see abuse and still don't have a busted set to show for it. In fact, one of my customers called the other day and admitted to running a 100 shot of nitrous and exceeding 20psi boost on a mildly modded turbo II with these seals, and he didnt break them...did manage to break the rear iron at the dowelpin, though, and is now pissing out oil everywhere through the hole. The only thing is about these seals, is that if you're reusing housings you'll have a longer breakin for compression to come all the way up, since these are a harder seal and don't seem to wear as much.

As far as the rest of the soft seals, everybody pretty much sells the same thing. I personally don't buy a "kit" from anywhere, just order the parts I need for each individual engine. Many of atkins' gasket kits are aftermarket, and are cheaper than the others out there (I've checked), and they work just fine...they include stock mazda coolant seals, dowel seals, and tension bolt seals, just the paper gaskets are aftermarket, but a paper gasket is a paper gasket people, it does the same job regardless if it's yellow or red or blue.

As for oil control rings, get the viton rings...atkins makes their own, which work well and last longer than stock, and I believe RA obtains theirs from mcmaster carr which I have never bothered to try. RA also obtains their INNER coolant seals from mcmaster carr, which are teflon encapsulated...these aren't as widely used or proven, though I've used them before with no problems...they do require stretching and manipulation during installation to fit properly, I dont think theyre made specifically for the rotary engine since their size is just a bit off. Their outer seal seems to be just a stock mazda one.

 

Hmm, that is some interesting information RR. I dont mind the extended break-in period of the seals at all... as long as it wont have any ill effects on the housing itself.

I am going to reuse my corner seals but replace the side seals... the builder doesnt feel safe reusing them.. he said he want to replace everything except the oil control seals (metal) on the rotors and the corner seals.

Given what you said RR, the RA kit has some pretty decent stuff... in exception to the not so fitted teflon seal. I think I'll get the RA kit, it comes with most everything.. I'll buy the side seals from Atkins as well as the viton oil seals and coolant seal... I'll have to compare the prices at Mazda for the paper gasket set but I may get it at Atkins too.

The seal prices were from the local Mazda dealer, the builder use to work there and gets a employee discount still so that was his cost. :/ Not sure why but it was 73$ a seal... maybe that dealer just gouges on prices.

~Kris

 

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought the ra apex seals wear the housings down quicker than oem one's because they are harder.

 

Any harder seal will wear housings more than stock...and any softer seal will wear them less, with the only exception being ceramics, which are hard without much friction.

Mazda did a lot of R & D, and found that regardless of their best efforts, either the housing, the seals, or both, WILL wear. They finally settled on a design that allows both parts to mutually wear...that's right, housings are designed to wear just like seals. This way, it's a compromise, but they were able to get decent mileage out of an engine. Making the seals too hard would chatter and cause the housings to flake and wear out quickly, and making the housings too hard would cause the seals to wear prematurely and break.

 

RR,

So, I thought Mazda went back to 3 piece?? I'm slightly out of the loop since my engine get built.

 

If they have, I haven't heard about it, or seen it. Though, it's been a few months since I've ordered or used a mazda 2mm seal in a rebuild.

 

I remember reading somewhere while back about them going back to 3 piece.

 

I think I've decided to go with a Rotary Aviation overhaul kit and Atkins side-seals, I'll order the aftermarket exterior gasket set (oil pan gasket, etc) and possibly use the OE coolant seal since the RA one isnt 'exact' and that worries me.

Otherwise the rest of the kit should work great and my front housing and replacement rear housing are in superb shape.

I like the RA kit as it comes with front and rear seals as well as new thrust bearings and some other neat odds and ends. I just figured I'd post my final setup one last time before I took the plunge.

~Kris

 

check these out http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MakeTrack=true

 

Nice find.. Man, those are expensive.. But still less than Ianetti's (I forgot how much Ianetti's cost)?

 

I have had many conversations about this very subject with Chris Ott and Ari Yallon of www.rx7.com, with Bryan of BNR Supercars (who is an established engine builder as well) and also with Steve "Genghis" Kan, one of my partners over at Gotham about this very subject. With my 425-450 rwhp setup, i went with stock internals, down to the 2mm 2 piece oem apex seals. It's safe to say that Mazda has put more R&D money into this subject than any small company out there. This coupled with my horrendous experience with playdoh Hurley apex seals and it made the decision easy for me.

 

I'm on a limited budget and boarderline having to sell the car once I'm done so I am trying to do things right but do it on a budget... a few of my friends are very happy with RA seals so I figured I'd give them a shot, its a nice benifit as long as their newer springs are better and dont flatten out since they are now heat treated. :/ The coolant seal not being exact worries me, that just seems like it is asking for trouble and the Atkins side seals are OE peices just sold through them. Hopefully things will be on the up and up by the time she is back on the road and I can keep her.

I still need to send my injectors off but I cant get them out of the rails... is there a special tool that gets them out easier.

~Kris

 

why are u buying oem side seals and coolant o-ring from atkins? is it a lot cheaper?

 

I am sure that Ray at Malloy (1 888 533 3400) can and will beat their prices.