When it comes to road racing it's a power and weight game if the cars are setup to balance the power. The car with the most power to weight will win. There's no possible way you or Howard could argue that. Sure if you don't have boost until 5k and you go from 200 rwhp to 500 you'll have traction problems. I haven't seen Rich's Dyno but I'm betting the power curve really isn't bad from 4k on. Sure I'll have less tire per horse but I'll take that equation over over too much tire and not enough power. To think I'd be slower in a 500 rwhp car with bigger tires VS a 350 rwhp with smaller tires is straight up crazy talk and frankly you should know better. Howard sure as hell will. The problem isn't which one will be faster but which one will end up with a pile of DNFs and we all know that answer unless you go with an LSX. And as I've said for years if and when I end up with a v8 in my car it will likely be in a v8 car that can handle that power with a lot less effort than trying to make the FD something it isn't.

I realize a detuned v8 like Brent is running is a very smart play but at the same time a highly tuned/properly tuned rotary (around 350) really isn't that un reliable and it's boat loads cheaper. I doubt I've spent over 5k on my car the last 4 years, excluding tires, gas and brakes. I also LOVE keeping up with todays cars in my humble 13b, shooting flames, the sound, the fury, the endless top end power. I like that linear never ending power curve and really don't like that down low grunt in other words I'd rather be a cheetah than a horse It just feels ruff where as there is no power curve like a rotary it's as smooth as silk and once that's in your blood it's so tuff to enjoy another stream of power.

As far as traction control goes your right foot is your traction control and if you can't determine if the tires are spinning or the car is moving in the wrong direction then go to a skid pad and figure it out.

 

I completely agree with you. Sadly our cars are close to being 20 years old. So sad. Hopefully when Mazda gets off their collective asses and puts out a new rotary powered car it will be well worth the wait, and won't resemble the RX-8 in any way.

Gordon, your right a 500HP FD is every bit a race car. Albeit a race care with A/C. And all things considered pretty tough overall. Granted there are some necessary upgrades, but most FD owners make them well before the 500HP mark.

My question is this however. With all the collective knowledge of the board., and valid complaints about boost transition . What would be the best turbo for 500HP and a very smooth boost curve that pulls to redline? Because it sounds like everyone just wants a nice smooth powerband without the sudden OH yea my boost just kicked in feeling.

 

wow this is a really great thread!!

I have never been in a 500+hp car before but I live in the country area and always take the back curvy roads when I get the chance and the response of the twins is amazing to me coming out of corners and I cant really see the same response coming from a big single turbo especially on really tight corners.

BNR’s are on my list of things to put in the car and I am sure that I wont be disappointed at all with BOTH the response and power from just the BNR‘s. IMO

 

^^ I agree as long as the twins are setup sequentially.

 

oh it would have to be! if not then why stay with the twins...?

 

What would your thoughts be on a compound setup ?? It's been done before and keeps some of the low end from the twins. It would be somewhat expensive, but possibly worth the effort.

 

i am in the 500hp range and i would not go back to the 320 i was making on the twins for anything. the precision 67 65 spools up very quick and as long as your rpms are above 4 grand (which if you are talking about corner exits and such they usually are) the boost is practiacally instant. although the open wg is obnoxious in town, i love it. it can easily be rerouted into the dp, and that would probably increase power, i love the noise. also people talking about unreliability and race gas and 3 fuel pumps ect.. where is that coming from? my dc is low on my 850/1600 setup with 2 supra pumps, pump gas with 5050 meth, and i have not had a single reliabilty problem except what i expected,(a single plate clutch not holding up, and the stock rear diff exploding.) all summer. I just grenaded the diff at the track last week but other than that i drive it about 3-4 days a week 80 miles round trip to work and for fun on the weekends. the no A/C gets old, the coilovers at full stiff can on shitty roads, but as far as response and all out power, it is incredible and would never go back.

 

show me a 500WHP 2 rotor that has A/C and doesn't cook itself to death without a nonesistent hood or custom v-mount and lasts through the summer, i want to see this unicorn.

at least turbos keep becoming more efficient, back years ago there was no alternative to lag with the new relatively cheap BB turbos and more efficient maps that they keep coming out with. hell, build a reasonable 400WHP car with 9.7 rotors running E85, GT35R and you have instantaneous spool once you press the throttle so i'm not sure why some people think it's impossible to make a rotary more up to date with today's standards and piston engines, they update compression so why can't we? my 8.5 rotors are going bye bye, but they did give me over 65k miles of reliable power but at the cost of response, i built that engine not intending for it to be anywhere near 400WHP+ though, albeit the low comp rotors do give a healthy safety margin.

 

The problem is that the FD is old.

The newer turbo cars already have some kind of gear-based boost control and in some cases torque limiting capabilities built into the ECU. I'm looking at some Evo X maps right now. On Evos and STi's you can turn down the boost based on vehicle speed or gear... low speed boost targets and high speed boost targets. On the Evo/STi All this is possible with the factory computer using free software. That's because they are relatively modern cars with a large base of support, and the FD is neither.

 

Alpsta

Yes, you read my mind i thought of that video while reading some of the responses.

 

ECU controlable traction control is available with various aftermarket parts. There is also gear based boost control on the Haltech's, Vi-pecs, and Motech's I'm not jumping your ****, because I agree with you. I'm just saying if you throw enough money at it there are ways to bring the FD into the modern era.

 

Yeah, we run the Autronic which has the ability for TC and all that jazz.

While I understand that modern turbos provide better spool, I still find it difficult to believe that running the size of turbo required for those power levels, while keeping the boost at reasonable levels, doesn't result in a somewhat peaky powerband.

I can only relate to our racecar, which has gone through the gamut of turbos: SP with T3 GT35, T4 GT35R, then HBP with GT40 and now T04Z. We're in the 450+whp range, and our powerband is still generally between 6000-8200 rpm. Mind you, we've got a Saenz 6-speed sequential, so staying in the powerband on the track is no problem. I just don't think I would enjoy that type of car on the street with a regular 5-speed. Somehow, I would always expect it to feel slightly...sluggish...


I'd certainly like to drive (in) a 450-500whp car on the street, maybe I would be converted.

 

I'm not sure how you read that into my post, I was referring to the SCC shootout a few years ago where a relatively stock FD beat up on single turbo Supras producing far more horsepower.

http://sportcompactcar.automotive.co...mes/index.html

 

But STIs and Evos are ugly, and most are owned by ricer punks....no thanks

 

I"ll second that.
I can't speak for everyone else, but there are literally 5 FD in my local area, and we hardly ever get together. But that being said look at it like this. The FD's engine and sensor set up is at least compared to more modern cars pretty stupid. it's ODB I , and there isn't any way to retrofit a more modern setup into the car. At least I haven't figured it out yet, although I'm sure it could be done somehow.

 

I dont think anyone or at least a majority of people who have a 500+hp FD would ever go back to 350hp or maybe 400hp.

Can a rx7 really put 500+hp down to the floor going THROUGH a turn and not spin out??? just asking.

 

It's a matter of traction, suspension down force and driver skill. Could it happen going flat out... depends on the curve I suppose, but anything is possible. Even if it's highly unlikely .

 

unfortunately standalones still avoid many of these current technologies, they seem to like the fact that they are years behind the factory boards. microtech for example is stuck in the stone ages and refuses to adapt simply because it works, just not very easily or well.

 

seems there are mixed feelings about this. But here is what i have tested and came up with over the years. I am now running aem and will always run it as its so flexable. the power fc would not idle for **** but did make me over 500hp but i switched to aem which will do you laundry if you ask it to lol but not my car idles like a stock fd. as for fuel mods i have ONE supra pump 1680/850 injectors and a fuel regulator and a precision pt67h turbo that has instant spool on my custom long runner manifold with that i have ran 25psi with the injectors maxed out and all this is being held by a act HDD clutch set up with a solid organic disk that i have drag raced with slicks and it held just fine. to make 500hp its not hard and you dont need 7 fuel pumps and a magical wand. you can build 500hp with great spool and response and very streetable very easy.

 

the mixed feelings come from the pure fact that a 500WHP FD will not be a cornering champ, where a 350WHP FD with the stock twins is much more easy to manage. each car should be built with a purpose, the guys who dislike 500WHP light sport cars usually are the type who do not run in a straight line and like the pure feel of G's back in your seat versus being pulled into the door or center console without having to manage their foot ever so slightly. each of which is understandable, you don't need 500WHP to have a "quick" car depending on your point of view.

 

hmmmm I would really like to see a car use at least 500hp down through a "average" turn and still have traction.

 

A set of double "Ds" that make you feel really great taking to a party but are really only fun for short periods and only after you spend alot of money to get her in the mood vs. a 'C' cup that's lively, quick-witted, cheap(er) to entertain and fun all the time....not just behind closed doors. If you can afford only one, which is the keeper.......???

 

Well yes (AVCR has had it forever) but as I pointed out, if I have an Evo I get it for free and it works every time. The newer traction control systems are integrated into the torque request system and thus the electronic throttle control and the wheelspin sensors. You won't get that level of integration with an aftermarket computer. The brand new ZR-1 models are designed so that you can literally floor the gas pedal in a turn and that will send a signal to the computer to keep the wheelspin under control using the electronic throttle.

I'm not saying Evos are awesome or "better" than the FD I'm just saying that they are modern and the FD is not. That's why they safely and reliably make 300hp at 23psi on the completely stock 2.0 4B11T engine.

 

Well thats' never going to happen , on an oval track sure all day. I'm stuck in the middle of this debate. I want a high HP car, and I love the feeling I get when I'm in a 500+ HP FD. However, I also like being able to make quick and accurate changes in direction without fear of the back end stepping out . which you can't do easily or cheaply in the FD. That said There are several cars in Japan doing just that ( 500HP ) and handle well on the circuit or touge. But they are running 12 in . wide tires and expensive suspension setups adjusted to suit the specific event. It's very possible to do it. But you have to be able to control your boost levels. If you have a way to make 500 in the straights and 375 through the corners with excellent boost transition then you'd have an unbeatable car

 

uhmm hi - lo boost button? lol