Does 500 rwhp make an FD more enjoyable to drive? (13b only)
#51
All out Track Freak!
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
Even with 315s I have to believe you'd struggle to find traction, especially in slower corners. It's been proven in the SCC shootout years ago that a mildly tuned FD retaining the stock twins and making about 320 rwhp can beat up on single turbo Supras producing 500-600+ rwhp. If you can get the power to the ground (and maintain it), great, but I don't see that happening in an FD without sophisticated traction control
I realize a detuned v8 like Brent is running is a very smart play but at the same time a highly tuned/properly tuned rotary (around 350) really isn't that un reliable and it's boat loads cheaper. I doubt I've spent over 5k on my car the last 4 years, excluding tires, gas and brakes. I also LOVE keeping up with todays cars in my humble 13b, shooting flames, the sound, the fury, the endless top end power. I like that linear never ending power curve and really don't like that down low grunt in other words I'd rather be a cheetah than a horse It just feels ruff where as there is no power curve like a rotary it's as smooth as silk and once that's in your blood it's so tuff to enjoy another stream of power.
As far as traction control goes your right foot is your traction control and if you can't determine if the tires are spinning or the car is moving in the wrong direction then go to a skid pad and figure it out.
#52
pissin' on pistons
iTrader: (26)
The low end torque and "instant spool" of the twins really isn't that impressive these days. Maybe for an early 90s car it is, but not now.
I've been tuning Subarus lately. The 2.5 motors make gobs of torque by 3000-4000rpm (easily 350-400 torque) even with a bolt-on turbo, partly because you can reliably wind them to over 20psi on straight pump fuel. After driving those cars when I then drive a sequential FD the low end is meh (better than a single FD though), the transition is irritating, and the top end just isn't that great either.
I've been tuning Subarus lately. The 2.5 motors make gobs of torque by 3000-4000rpm (easily 350-400 torque) even with a bolt-on turbo, partly because you can reliably wind them to over 20psi on straight pump fuel. After driving those cars when I then drive a sequential FD the low end is meh (better than a single FD though), the transition is irritating, and the top end just isn't that great either.
Gordon, your right a 500HP FD is every bit a race car. Albeit a race care with A/C. And all things considered pretty tough overall. Granted there are some necessary upgrades, but most FD owners make them well before the 500HP mark.
My question is this however. With all the collective knowledge of the board., and valid complaints about boost transition . What would be the best turbo for 500HP and a very smooth boost curve that pulls to redline? Because it sounds like everyone just wants a nice smooth powerband without the sudden OH yea my boost just kicked in feeling.
#53
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sanger, california
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wow this is a really great thread!!
I have never been in a 500+hp car before but I live in the country area and always take the back curvy roads when I get the chance and the response of the twins is amazing to me coming out of corners and I cant really see the same response coming from a big single turbo especially on really tight corners.
BNR’s are on my list of things to put in the car and I am sure that I wont be disappointed at all with BOTH the response and power from just the BNR‘s. IMO
I have never been in a 500+hp car before but I live in the country area and always take the back curvy roads when I get the chance and the response of the twins is amazing to me coming out of corners and I cant really see the same response coming from a big single turbo especially on really tight corners.
BNR’s are on my list of things to put in the car and I am sure that I wont be disappointed at all with BOTH the response and power from just the BNR‘s. IMO
#57
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hudson WI
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i am in the 500hp range and i would not go back to the 320 i was making on the twins for anything. the precision 67 65 spools up very quick and as long as your rpms are above 4 grand (which if you are talking about corner exits and such they usually are) the boost is practiacally instant. although the open wg is obnoxious in town, i love it. it can easily be rerouted into the dp, and that would probably increase power, i love the noise. also people talking about unreliability and race gas and 3 fuel pumps ect.. where is that coming from? my dc is low on my 850/1600 setup with 2 supra pumps, pump gas with 5050 meth, and i have not had a single reliabilty problem except what i expected,(a single plate clutch not holding up, and the stock rear diff exploding.) all summer. I just grenaded the diff at the track last week but other than that i drive it about 3-4 days a week 80 miles round trip to work and for fun on the weekends. the no A/C gets old, the coilovers at full stiff can on shitty roads, but as far as response and all out power, it is incredible and would never go back.
#58
Sharp Claws
iTrader: (30)
show me a 500WHP 2 rotor that has A/C and doesn't cook itself to death without a nonesistent hood or custom v-mount and lasts through the summer, i want to see this unicorn.
at least turbos keep becoming more efficient, back years ago there was no alternative to lag with the new relatively cheap BB turbos and more efficient maps that they keep coming out with. hell, build a reasonable 400WHP car with 9.7 rotors running E85, GT35R and you have instantaneous spool once you press the throttle so i'm not sure why some people think it's impossible to make a rotary more up to date with today's standards and piston engines, they update compression so why can't we? my 8.5 rotors are going bye bye, but they did give me over 65k miles of reliable power but at the cost of response, i built that engine not intending for it to be anywhere near 400WHP+ though, albeit the low comp rotors do give a healthy safety margin.
at least turbos keep becoming more efficient, back years ago there was no alternative to lag with the new relatively cheap BB turbos and more efficient maps that they keep coming out with. hell, build a reasonable 400WHP car with 9.7 rotors running E85, GT35R and you have instantaneous spool once you press the throttle so i'm not sure why some people think it's impossible to make a rotary more up to date with today's standards and piston engines, they update compression so why can't we? my 8.5 rotors are going bye bye, but they did give me over 65k miles of reliable power but at the cost of response, i built that engine not intending for it to be anywhere near 400WHP+ though, albeit the low comp rotors do give a healthy safety margin.
#59
rotorhead
iTrader: (3)
But yeah, really I think traction is the limiting fun factor... when you run out of traction it switches from fun to praying. So I think the real question is, at what HP do you no longer have traction (which depends on tire width, type, alignment), but I would wager that unless you're doing over 120 in 5th... anything over 550 with no traction control is useless.
The newer turbo cars already have some kind of gear-based boost control and in some cases torque limiting capabilities built into the ECU. I'm looking at some Evo X maps right now. On Evos and STi's you can turn down the boost based on vehicle speed or gear... low speed boost targets and high speed boost targets. On the Evo/STi All this is possible with the factory computer using free software. That's because they are relatively modern cars with a large base of support, and the FD is neither.
#61
pissin' on pistons
iTrader: (26)
The problem is that the FD is old.
The newer turbo cars already have some kind of gear-based boost control and in some cases torque limiting capabilities built into the ECU. I'm looking at some Evo X maps right now. On Evos and STi's you can turn down the boost based on vehicle speed or gear... low speed boost targets and high speed boost targets. On the Evo/STi All this is possible with the factory computer using free software. That's because they are relatively modern cars with a large base of support, and the FD is neither.
The newer turbo cars already have some kind of gear-based boost control and in some cases torque limiting capabilities built into the ECU. I'm looking at some Evo X maps right now. On Evos and STi's you can turn down the boost based on vehicle speed or gear... low speed boost targets and high speed boost targets. On the Evo/STi All this is possible with the factory computer using free software. That's because they are relatively modern cars with a large base of support, and the FD is neither.
#62
Brother of the Rotary
iTrader: (2)
Yeah, we run the Autronic which has the ability for TC and all that jazz.
While I understand that modern turbos provide better spool, I still find it difficult to believe that running the size of turbo required for those power levels, while keeping the boost at reasonable levels, doesn't result in a somewhat peaky powerband.
I can only relate to our racecar, which has gone through the gamut of turbos: SP with T3 GT35, T4 GT35R, then HBP with GT40 and now T04Z. We're in the 450+whp range, and our powerband is still generally between 6000-8200 rpm. Mind you, we've got a Saenz 6-speed sequential, so staying in the powerband on the track is no problem. I just don't think I would enjoy that type of car on the street with a regular 5-speed. Somehow, I would always expect it to feel slightly...sluggish...
I'd certainly like to drive (in) a 450-500whp car on the street, maybe I would be converted.
While I understand that modern turbos provide better spool, I still find it difficult to believe that running the size of turbo required for those power levels, while keeping the boost at reasonable levels, doesn't result in a somewhat peaky powerband.
I can only relate to our racecar, which has gone through the gamut of turbos: SP with T3 GT35, T4 GT35R, then HBP with GT40 and now T04Z. We're in the 450+whp range, and our powerband is still generally between 6000-8200 rpm. Mind you, we've got a Saenz 6-speed sequential, so staying in the powerband on the track is no problem. I just don't think I would enjoy that type of car on the street with a regular 5-speed. Somehow, I would always expect it to feel slightly...sluggish...
I'd certainly like to drive (in) a 450-500whp car on the street, maybe I would be converted.
#63
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,045
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://sportcompactcar.automotive.co...mes/index.html
#65
pissin' on pistons
iTrader: (26)
I can't speak for everyone else, but there are literally 5 FD in my local area, and we hardly ever get together. But that being said look at it like this. The FD's engine and sensor set up is at least compared to more modern cars pretty stupid. it's ODB I , and there isn't any way to retrofit a more modern setup into the car. At least I haven't figured it out yet, although I'm sure it could be done somehow.
#66
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: sanger, california
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont think anyone or at least a majority of people who have a 500+hp FD would ever go back to 350hp or maybe 400hp.
Can a rx7 really put 500+hp down to the floor going THROUGH a turn and not spin out??? just asking.
Can a rx7 really put 500+hp down to the floor going THROUGH a turn and not spin out??? just asking.
#68
Sharp Claws
iTrader: (30)
The problem is that the FD is old.
The newer turbo cars already have some kind of gear-based boost control and in some cases torque limiting capabilities built into the ECU. I'm looking at some Evo X maps right now. On Evos and STi's you can turn down the boost based on vehicle speed or gear... low speed boost targets and high speed boost targets. On the Evo/STi All this is possible with the factory computer using free software. That's because they are relatively modern cars with a large base of support, and the FD is neither.
The newer turbo cars already have some kind of gear-based boost control and in some cases torque limiting capabilities built into the ECU. I'm looking at some Evo X maps right now. On Evos and STi's you can turn down the boost based on vehicle speed or gear... low speed boost targets and high speed boost targets. On the Evo/STi All this is possible with the factory computer using free software. That's because they are relatively modern cars with a large base of support, and the FD is neither.
#69
500+hp club
iTrader: (26)
seems there are mixed feelings about this. But here is what i have tested and came up with over the years. I am now running aem and will always run it as its so flexable. the power fc would not idle for **** but did make me over 500hp but i switched to aem which will do you laundry if you ask it to lol but not my car idles like a stock fd. as for fuel mods i have ONE supra pump 1680/850 injectors and a fuel regulator and a precision pt67h turbo that has instant spool on my custom long runner manifold with that i have ran 25psi with the injectors maxed out and all this is being held by a act HDD clutch set up with a solid organic disk that i have drag raced with slicks and it held just fine. to make 500hp its not hard and you dont need 7 fuel pumps and a magical wand. you can build 500hp with great spool and response and very streetable very easy.
#70
Sharp Claws
iTrader: (30)
the mixed feelings come from the pure fact that a 500WHP FD will not be a cornering champ, where a 350WHP FD with the stock twins is much more easy to manage. each car should be built with a purpose, the guys who dislike 500WHP light sport cars usually are the type who do not run in a straight line and like the pure feel of G's back in your seat versus being pulled into the door or center console without having to manage their foot ever so slightly. each of which is understandable, you don't need 500WHP to have a "quick" car depending on your point of view.
#72
Urban Combat Vet
iTrader: (16)
A set of double "Ds" that make you feel really great taking to a party but are really only fun for short periods and only after you spend alot of money to get her in the mood vs. a 'C' cup that's lively, quick-witted, cheap(er) to entertain and fun all the time....not just behind closed doors. If you can afford only one, which is the keeper.......???
#73
rotorhead
iTrader: (3)
ECU controlable traction control is available with various aftermarket parts. There is also gear based boost control on the Haltech's, Vi-pecs, and Motech's I'm not jumping your ****, because I agree with you. I'm just saying if you throw enough money at it there are ways to bring the FD into the modern era.
I'm not saying Evos are awesome or "better" than the FD I'm just saying that they are modern and the FD is not. That's why they safely and reliably make 300hp at 23psi on the completely stock 2.0 4B11T engine.
#74
pissin' on pistons
iTrader: (26)
Well thats' never going to happen , on an oval track sure all day. I'm stuck in the middle of this debate. I want a high HP car, and I love the feeling I get when I'm in a 500+ HP FD. However, I also like being able to make quick and accurate changes in direction without fear of the back end stepping out . which you can't do easily or cheaply in the FD. That said There are several cars in Japan doing just that ( 500HP ) and handle well on the circuit or touge. But they are running 12 in . wide tires and expensive suspension setups adjusted to suit the specific event. It's very possible to do it. But you have to be able to control your boost levels. If you have a way to make 500 in the straights and 375 through the corners with excellent boost transition then you'd have an unbeatable car