ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

The video was to show the supermodel you mentioned is great in bed. It'd still be impressive if I posted a stock one.

Underground Racing has a lambo tt kit for $35k gives you 650whp on pump and 750-800 on race gas. HKS has a gt800 (800+ hp) kit for $12k or so for a GTR which is $80k brand new.

We are talking about $115k here so my examples are relevant.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Well your expectations are definetly lower than mine.

Except that the one you posted is 1100+ whp. Fail

No one is talking about a GTR. Follow a topic much?

115=!135 and thats by the cheapest number that you posted. IIRC the 35k doesn't include installation. So go ahead end this debate and find us a tt gallardo for 115k.

Edit-David sorry about this. Please feel free to pm a mod to clean up this mess.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Alpsta,

I just got a chance to read my response. I originally typed it through my phone and in a hurry. All I can say that it definitely came out extremely confrontational and on the rude side. I apologize for that. Lets just leave it with that I am not impressed with stock gallardo performance given how much they cost new.

Mrmatt3465

iTrader: (10)

Why so much bickering for such a helpful thread -_-

Thanks David for posting this. I look forward to reading your next installment. I don't think I'll be able to afford a 20b for years to come but its nice to know what shops have a good reputation given your experiences

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

It's ok Montego, no problems on my side PM sent.

But since you requested, I am posting this to end this debate

http://fyiauto.com/cars-sale/cars-fo...09&vid=2133627

Sorry for de-railing the thread; mods please feel free to clean up the mess.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

I'd appreciate if we could get back on track and mods please feel free to clean up the irrelevant posts. I am working on the next installment: Engine. I have been involved in an weekend event (istartjax.com) that will have me pretty booked up thru today so it might be a few days.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

and end... Well played sir as the last id seen they were no where near that low. And though it isnt 1100, 850 will make for a very fun time.

mefarri

iTrader: (2)

Like I said in the other thread, those numbers are fantastic. There still aren't a lot of people making that much power in a rotary, 20b or not. And especially not for extended periods.

NVMYRX-7

iTrader: (24)

Really, can't we all just get along

I'm sorry but the whole "rotarded" comment is funny, I don't care who you are

I had to hoist the flag on this one

Yes, anytime someone else builds your car it's going to cost money!

I live in Charlotte and can't wait to drive some of the roads in Ashville!

NVMYRX-7

iTrader: (24)

David, if you are happy with your car THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS!

socks

iTrader: (9)

David,

Having said that you're in asheville, have you checked out the Diamondback and Devils Staircase? They are in Little Switzerland, NC

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

^Haven't done this yet but they look great. What I need for DGRR are some roads in the Bryson City area that would be good runs but not as congested as the Tail. Also looking for good food options.

Wompa164

iTrader: (4)

Your story is exactly why I refuse to do business with 'shops' anymore outside of tuning or the odd fabrication job, and having enough similar experiences to yours I now do all of my own labor. It might take 3-4x longer but at least I know the job is done right to my standards and not some tweaker that the shop owners are paying $10/hr.

Blackadde///

iTrader: (27)

David, from someone else building a 20b FD, thanks for sharing your experiences along the way.

Also, glad Ben (Karack) was able to help you out while your car was here in Sacramento. He's been a great asset to the rotary community with his extensive knowledge and love for all things rotary. I can't say enough good things about him.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Back in NC now so will be able to post up more soon.

socks

iTrader: (9)

i'm only about an hour south of you in Greenville, SC. I'd love to see the car!

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

^ Come on up. Tray and I go mountain road driving a few times a week so pm me your contact info.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Engine Modifications and the Do’s and Don’ts of a 20B Conversion



Current State:
Pretty much like in the above picture. Relist of engine modifications and components:

Engine

• 3 rotor conversion by Kilo Racing, Orlando FL
• CLR Motorsports balanced center assembly
• New 13B aluminum housings
• New thick center plate
• 3mm RA Super Seals
• Mazdaspeed race bearings
• Guru stud kit
• Pettit Racing lightweight chromoly flywheel
• Precision PT 78mm GTS dual ball-bearing turbo
• Gotham Racing turbo heat cover
• ASE Turbo custom manifold
• Synapse Engineering 50mm wastegate
• Tial blow off valve
• Pettit Racing 3 rotor custom intercooler
• Custom Aluminum Radiators radiator with bottom protector plate and Spal twin fans
• Black metallic powder-coated UIM and intercooler piping
• 850cc and 1400cc primary and secondary injectors
• Custom primary and secondary fuel rails
• Twin Denso Supra fuel pumps, secondary activated under boost
• Stainless steel fuel lines
• Stainless steel OMP lines
• Aeromotive fuel pump regulator
• Tweakit Racing idler pulley
• Pettit Racing billet rotor power steering pulley
• Pettit Racing custom strut brace
• Garfinkle engine torque brace
• Kilo Racing braided throttle and cruise control cables
• Kilo Racing custom engine shroud
• Carbonetics triple disc carbon clutch
• Silicone hoses
• DEI heat shield
• AEM methanol/water injection kit

So now the work is done and I’ve got the car back together.

Build, Rebuild, and Rebuild.
The statement says a lot about my experiences with the 20B conversion and “don’t do like I did” pretty much sums it up unless you like frustration, time wasting, and spending lots of cash. So what to do with your 20B conversion or with modifications to your 13B? My thoughts.

The Do’s:

Think About the End Game
Check out the forum on any given day and you’ll see a vast array of new products and ideas for your build. If you are like me, you’ll get excited and want to “do that” or buy something new. And before long, you’ll end up with a pile of parts to put on the car and another pile to sell. I say, “Stop!” and think first.

So take a breather, step back, and ask yourself, “What is your vision on where you want to end up when you are done?” This is the most important question of them all and one that can save you a bunch of time and money if asked before starting the FD modification game. It’s critical to know what your goals and objectives are before beginning any FD modification project let alone one as complicated as the 3 rotor swap.

Think about how you want your car to look and operate once you are done and then use that vision as the guide for your build. Are you trying to build the best street car ever and if so, what does that mean? Does it have to do more with the performance of the car or are you more interested in looks? The FD is a pretty awesome car right out of the box so maybe you are most interested in refreshing the looks of the car versus sinking a lot of cash into performance modifications.

Remember, back in the day, the RX7 had one of the best 0-60 MPH times and was renowned for its handling capabilities. It was Motor Trend's Import Car of the Year and Playboy Magazine declared the FD better than the Dodge Viper in a 1993 comparison. The FD also made Car and Driver magazine's Ten Best list for 1993 through 1995 and Road & Track proclaimed the FD "The ace in Mazda's sleeve, a car once touted as the purest, most exhilarating sports car in the world.”

Those are compelling reasons to leave well enough alone with the engine and to focus only on refreshing the interior and exterior of the car. If this is your ultimate plan, remember to do the reliability mods listed in the sticky on the forum, skip the rest of this section, and you’ll be good to go. If not, then read on.

So, you are a glutton for punishment and have decided modifying your car for performance is the plan. If so, it’s vitally important you consider your end objectives before starting. What do you wish to end up with? Is your goal to build a daily driver or something for the track? Those are two completely different objectives and should be treated as such. If you want to track the car, what performance modifications are needed to make the car fun and exciting to drive? I’ll leave this up to the track guys to chime in, but my FD track expert buddies have told me around 400 WHP is a good sweet spot with much emphasis placed on cooling and also having an excellent suspension, brake, and tire setup. The point is, if this is your goal, then lay out a plan to achieve these objectives, tackling the items in order of priority.

For me, I knew I wanted to build a very streetable, daily driven 3 rotor. My vision was to create and upgraded version (see 3 rotor) of what I thought Mazda should have done with the FD and I wanted to hop in it and drive to and from work. I also knew I wanted more available torque (no more revving to 4,500 RPMs) with less stress on the engine and because I lived in FL, I needed to keep the AC and I didn’t want to sacrifice PS. Finally, I wanted to build what I considered a “sleeper” car, one that retained its stock look and feel.

Unfortunately, I had no idea what it meant to achieve the above vision. I had not thought through what my expectations were for the amount of torque I would like nor had I any idea of what levels of HP would achieve my vision.

So, as the “build, rebuild, and rebuild” title hints to, off I went on trying to put together my dream car without really even knowing what would satisfy me. My first thought was the Pettit Racing “Banzai” 3 rotor conversion would be the ticket. I had driven in one of Pettit’s 20B conversions and was pretty impressed – go for a ride sometime with Cam the owner of Pettit as he is crazy. But when I finally got the car back I realized the claimed 550 crank HP of the conversion was not (I dyno’d in at 397 WHP which is around 467 BHP) and the resultant work just didn’t please me very much. Sure, the car was fun to drive but I felt there should be more excitement.

Had I taken the time to talk to others that had gone the 3-rotor conversion route, I would have come away with the following:

- The Pettit Banzai twin turbo setup would not satisfy my desired objectives,
- The “sweet spot” for my vision would require a single turbo setup to achieve above 500 WHP and over 400 ft. lbs. of torque and anything above this would be a bonus, and
- 3 rotor engines when properly built can easily achieve the above levels of WHP and torque.

So, my initial plans should have included:

- A single turbo setup. I have a T78 BB turbo, which works great for me. The GT42R is also a nice choice and both are capable of supporting well over 900+ HP. If I were to do it again, I’d definitely go with one of the new billet compressor wheels that give faster spool ups and more HP, and
- An engine built to support 600+ WHP.

Priority items for the build:

- Rebuilt engine that had balanced rotating assembly – eccentric shaft, rotors, and weights,
- Good street porting job for proper airflow. Most everyone does this but my initial build had a pretty sloppy port job. I would discuss this with your engine builder to ensure you get a port job that is clean and professional and one that will meet your goals,
- Stud kit (http://www.xtremerotaries.co/product...ents/stud-kits) to prevent engine flex, a problem with 3 rotors,
- “Unbreakable” seals such as the ALS kit (contact allrotor93) or the RA Super Seals. I have the RA “blacks” in mine and they are controversial as to whether they damage the rotor housings, and
- An upgraded fuel system to support the higher HP levels. A note here – I have two fuel pumps that initially were both wired to come on with engine start and I had the relay “mod” everyone here discusses for reliability. By performing this mod though you essentially end up with a fuel pump that is on at the 100% level all the time. For me this meant two fuel pumps on full bore all the time, which I felt was not good for the longevity of the pumps. Thus, I had one rewired to be triggered by the ECU under boost, saving the wear and tear on the second pump,
- Center housing oil modification that runs more oil to the center rotor. It’s pretty easy to do so why not?, and
- Methanol/water injection. This is a big one so I saved it for last. The death of a rotary engine is heat and anything you can do to cool down the engine is a big plus. Meth/water injection kits are a must on your build as they keep the engine cool and provide an extra level of safety. See Howard Coleman’s thread on the topic and you will be convinced: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ater+injection

Research and Plan, Plan, Plan
See my story and you’ll know why I highly recommend you spend a lot of time researching and planning. It will save you hundreds if not thousands of dollars and much time and frustration.

Think about your goals and then start filling in a plan to get to your objectives. Sit back and take your time with this so you really know what you want to accomplish with the build. And when you think you have the plan together, take a few weeks to think about it. I bet you’ll end up changing some of the priority items.

Interview Different Shops/Mechanics
Now that you have your plan together, find a shop that will execute your plan. I am making a bold assumption here that you need a shop/mechanic to do the work. This may not be the case and you might be a DIY guy, which is great. If so skip to the next section with one thought – are your skills really good enough to pull off doing all the work yourself? Can you pull out and rebuild a rotary yourself? If you’ve never done it before, I highly recommend you enlist the services of an expert the first time. I even suggest you be there if possible as the work is done. There’s nothing like seeing it before diving in for the first time.

If you are like me and engine rebuilding is not your thing, then find the right shop for you. And remember, the size of the shop does not necessarily equal quality work. In the rotary world, you are more likely to find one or two man shops and many of these do great work. You are also likely to get more personal service at these facilities then at the big shops.

My advice to you is to find a shop/mechanic with which you are comfortable that has the expertise to do your job and will perform the work in a timely and professional manner. I think it is a big plus to have the shop close to where you are so you can periodically check in to ensure the work is progressing on schedule. I’d ask for references and then follow up on these. I would also post up on the forum and ask about the shop you are considering. You might be surprised with what you hear.

A final thought: Keep business business and separate your build from personal emotions. The rotary world is small and we all develop personal relationships with other members of the community. Try to separate these personal relationships from your build. Keep the build transaction on a business level to ensure your expectations are being met. After the build, go out and be friends.

David Hayes’ Recommendations
This is by no means meant to be a complete list of those shops that do great quality work. I hear very good things about other mechanics/shops but I don’t have any personal experiences with them. So don’t take this as a slight, I just haven’t done business with you. Those that I do have experience with and gladly recommend are:

- Kilo Racing, St. Cloud FL: “Jesus” saves says it all. Kilo (Jesus Padilla) is a great humble guy who does excellent work. I now list him as a friend also,
- Speed1, Allentown PA (http://www.speed1allentown.com/): Dave was great to me last time up in PA. He’s eccentric like the rest of us and really knows his rotary stuff,
- Steven Osley, Asheville NC: Best rotary mind in the Carolinas. Very unassuming guy and a rotary expert through and through. It’s been a pleasure getting to know him and I am very comfortable having him work on my car. Contact “stevenoz” on the forum.

Again, there are many more shops and mechanics out there but not ones I have experiences with so they are not on the list. I did consider putting Defined Autoworks (http://www.definedautoworks.com/) on the list as I have met Logan several times and I really like the work they do. I just don’t have any personal experiences with them though.

Execute and stay on top of the build
So you’ve found the right mechanic/shop. What now? Agree to a plan and then make yourself a top priority. I recommend having upfront conversations with your mechanic/shop about your plan and the expected schedule for completion. I’d have as many of these conversations as required so both you and the shop are comfortable as to what needs to be done on the car and you know when to expect the work to be completed. I highly recommend you then get this (work to be done, parts to be used, cost for the work, and expected completion time) in writing. This will save you a lot of headaches in the future.

Once you are satisfied with the above, set a date to deliver your car and then make yourself a top priority by keeping in touch with the shop and by ensuring you are fully informed with what is being done. My experience shows that the larger the job, the more chances there are you will be constantly pushed to the back of the priority list as shops tend to concentrate on smaller jobs for cash flow. You do not want to be in a position like I was where your car is only worked on when no other work is in the shop. To me this is unacceptable and not customer oriented. Remember to separate personal emotions from business and treat the build as a business transaction only. Don’t hesitate to pull your car out of the shop if the work is not being done relatively according to schedule or up to the quality level you expect. Take if from me, if you start to get the feeling something is not going right, you are probably right and it won’t get any better hoping that things will change. They won’t and you’ll waste more time and money.

A note here to mechanics/shop owners: I know that on many occasions unexpected things come up with a build. These are after all, 18 year-old cars. The work is most always not as straight forward as contemplated and other work has to be done or additional parts need to be ordered. These are legitimate reasons for delays. No doubt about it. Simply communicate these issues in a timely fashion to the customer and all will be happy. Unfortunately, it is my personal experience that most shops do not do this. Be one of the shops that goes against the norm and gives timely updates on the build and you will have customers knocking down your doors with additional business.

Next Installment: Engine Management & Electronics

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

An additional 3 rotor thought: You can start with an NA 20B conversion and then upgrade if you wish. See Gordon Monsen's NA 3 rotor build. The car is a blast to drive and has plenty of usable torque and power. It's free revving and very unique. If I were to build a 20B exclusively for mountain roads, this would be my route - last year at DGRR, I could count on one hand the times I actually hit boost on the Tail. I'd do all the engine prep work required to support more HP and a turbo and then treat that as a phase two of the project if I ultimately decided the turbo route was the way to go.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

I would assume from the lack of response that this info is not of interest? Let me know if you want me to continue with the thread. If not, no big deal. It takes a lot of time to do this and I don't want to waste anyone's time.

RX7M5GUY

iTrader: (2)

David, please continue with your candid report on your building experience. I think your work to provide that info for the benefit of others is commendable.

Cheers, Philip

SpAm@FC

iTrader: (4)

very informative!
Thanks for sharing, please go on!

Flybye

1) Let me just say you deserve 1,000 trophies for sticking in there with the little Wankel. I'm sure you had probably reconsidered the GT2 at one point, but then realized everything that has occurred is due to unreadability with the shops themselves and not just bad luck with the motor itself. I mean who would have imagined Pettit doing a **** job with the motor?

2) You deserve another trophy for being the original owner. God I wish I could say that but I was fresh out of high school.

3) Have other stories like this popped up from Pettit? What the heck happened to them?

4) What was the software company you sold? If ya don't mind me asking.

pd_day

iTrader: (6)

Keep up the good work David, your information is well appreciated!

CYD

I was going to wait until everything was complete and make a compilation for my build. Please see through to completion David! Don't falter Finish the race!

+Drinks on me when you roll through the NW and through my area.

Thanks,
~CYD