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David Hayes’ End of 3 Rotor Build, Rebuild, And Rebuild: A Reflection
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https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326906156
I’ve been asked to post up observations and recommendations on my 3 rotor conversion build, one that took many interesting twists and turns over the past 7 years. This thread is in response to those requests. What I plan on covering are my experiences in summary form (for the complete and overly chronicled 7-year thread, see: https://www.rx7club.com/build-threads-292/kilo-racing-3-rotor-fd-conversion-325733/), details on what I did and why I did it by category (Engine, Engine Management & Electronics, Exterior, Interior, and Tires & Suspension) and finally, thoughts on what I would do if I had to do it again and future plans – we’re never done are we? So sit back, buckle up, feel free to comment, and above all else, enjoy! A quick note – I am by no means a mechanical expert and don’t claim to be. If you want detailed technical recommendations, I am not the person for you. There are many experienced rotary guys here on the forum to help out with the technical details so listen to them, not me – Banzai-Racing, Dave Barninger at Speed1, Dale Clark, Howard Coleman, Defined Autoworks, Karak, Mahjik, Steven Osley, and of course Jesus Padilla at Kilo Racing are names that come immediately to mind. I am however a guy that has gone through quite a bit with the conversion and has had to learn along the way the do’s and don’ts of a rotary conversion. My thoughts and recommendations are based on these experiences and hopefully my $100K+ odyssey will help with your thought process as you contemplate modifications to your car, whether they are with your 2 rotor, 20B, or god-forbid (that’s for Tray here in Asheville ☺) an LSX. The Results Working from the recent first, the results. The car was taken to the dyno last Tuesday at Redline Performance in Asheville NC. Many thanks to Steven Osley for his work in prepping the car and in tuning it for the NC mountain altitude. If you are in need of expert rotary services in NC, contact “stevenoz” on this forum. He’s a great guy and a fantastic rotary resource. The car made 675 WHP and 531 ft. lbs. of torque at 18 PSI and 583 WHP and 435 ft. lbs. at 12 PSI. I’m most impressed with the 583 WHP at 12 PSI as this is 55 HP more than when I last went to the dyno. This is also the default boost level for my daily driving and the HP increase is noticeable. The car has more HP in it at both levels as we never reached a drop off in the HP curves. Steve Osley believes the car can hit 600 at 12 PSI and easily pass 700 at 18 PSI. I'm happy with where we are at though and there will be no rush from me to go higher in the RPM range. The dyno charts: https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326905781 https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326905782 And a link to one of the dyno runs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXK0...layer_embedded Lessons Learned: You can never have too much HP and torque for bragging rights but you can have too much “usable” HP. 675 WHP and 531 ft. lbs. of torque is great but try keeping that planted to the ground on anything but a straightaway, it is a challenge. For my driving skills, it’s nearly impossible so I generally don’t use high boost. And 583 HP and 435 ft. lbs. of torque is no slouch as the torque level of a 3 rotor will blast you off the line and the 500+ HP will keep you going. At this level, with a little more than 50% throttle, I can break the car loose. Observation: When I first started the build back in September 2004, 600 WHP had been eclipsed by only one person I know of on the forum – Red RX7 I believe. Now, it’s routinely reached by the 3-rotor crowd and even considered just a mid-range HP level. Rotary builds and tuning have come a long way. My personal belief here is meth/water injection has changed the game and made it easier to reliably reach higher levels of HP. Current State of Affairs Now some details on the car. My FD is a 1994 Brilliant Black PEP (Popular Equipment Package). It has the following engine, interior, exterior, and wheel and suspension mods: Engine • 3 rotor conversion by Kilo Racing, Orlando FL • CLR Motorsports balanced center assembly • New 13B aluminum housings • New thick center plate • 3mm RA Super Seals • Mazdaspeed race bearings • Guru stud kit • Pettit Racing lightweight chromoly flywheel • Precision PT 78mm GTS dual ball-bearing turbo • Gotham Racing turbo heat cover • ASE Turbo custom manifold • Synapse Engineering 50mm wastegate • Tial blow off valve • Pettit Racing 3 rotor custom intercooler • Custom Aluminum Radiators radiator with bottom protector plate and Spal twin fans • Black metallic powder-coated UIM and intercooler piping • 850cc and 1400cc primary and secondary injectors • Custom primary and secondary fuel rails • Twin Denso Supra fuel pumps, secondary activated under boost • Stainless steel fuel lines • Stainless steel OMP lines • Aeromotive fuel pump regulator • Tweakit Racing idler pulley • Pettit Racing billet rotor power steering pulley • Pettit Racing custom strut brace • Garfinkle engine torque brace • Kilo Racing braided throttle and cruise control cables • Kilo Racing custom engine shroud • Carbonetics triple disc carbon clutch • Silicone hoses • DEI heat shield Engine Management & Electronics • Microtech LTX-12s engine management system • Microtech wiring harness • MSD Blaster SS coils • Xcessive Amperage 200 amp custom alternator • XS Power AGM battery and custom tie-down • Sun Automotive Hyper Ground System • Greddy Profec B SPEC2 boost controller • PLX Devices DM-100 IMFD display modules • PLX Devices wideband AFR, Boost/Vacuum, AIT, EGT, Oil Pressure, and Water and Oil Temp sensor modules Exterior • Pettit Racing 99 spec front bumper • 99 spec front turn signals • 99 spec front lip • 99 spec brake ducts • Pettit Racing rear flares with stainless steel hardware • Custom "sleepy eye" popups with Hella 50mm Xenon HID projector low beams, Hella 90mm high beams and Kilo Racing custom shrouds • LED light conversion including “Audi-style” turn signals • Custom LED taillight conversion • Custom vented OEM hood • Rotary Extreme hood dampers • Shine Auto Project FRP undertray • 3.5 inch stainless steel downpipe • Magnaflow midpipe • Magnaflow 200 cell hi-flow catalytic convertor • Greddy stainless steel exhaust • DEI exhaust shield and heat wrap • JLK carbon fiber rear exhaust guard • Rotary13b1.com aluminum rotor oil cap, rotor dipstick, rotor shaped valve caps Interior • Mazda Nardi steering wheel with custom carbon fiber Mazda emblem • RX8 lighted shift knob • Pettit Racing short shifter • Aluminum gas pedal and footrest • Custom RX7 aluminum door sill plates • LED light conversion • Pettit Racing pillar mount • Redline Goods leather shift boot and center console cover • Mazda leather arm rest • Salva custom leather upholstery with perforated centers, black contrast stitching, “Mazda” headrest • Jason custom “3 Rotor” floor mats and rear carpet • Quiet Car soundproofing Tires & Suspension • Forgeline CCW three-piece polished aluminum wheels, 8.5 X 18 front +6.5 offset, 12.5 X 18 rears +7.5 offset • Michelin Pilot Sport2 tires, 245 35 18 front, 335 30 18 rear • TEIN Superstreet coilover kit • Banzai Racing urethane motor mounts • Banzai Racing differential brace • Pettit Racing front sway bar • Pettit Racing launch kit • Pettit Racing toe links and modified front spindles • Pettit Racing Big Brake Kit front • Pettit Racing slotted rotors rear • Hawk HPS brake pads • Stainless steel brake lines |
Thanks for doing this. I've kept up with your thread over the years and it was not a walk in the park. If anything it made me realize that considering a 3 rotor is not something to do on a whim and I'd always wondered what your final thoughts were.
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Pictures
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Had these taken last year in Jacksonville FL for a photoshoot (http://www.motormavens.com/2010/03/c...ree-rotor-rx7/). Car has changed a little since then and I am working on getting it detailed and then will post up new pics. Will be a few weeks though.
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326907171 https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326907277 https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326906639 https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326907171 https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1326907171 |
Pictures
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The Background: “Jesus Saves”
Bought the car new back in 1994 and have loved - and sometimes hated - it ever since. Can still remember seeing an FD for the first time. Spun around on the highway to find out what type of car it was – a CYM Mazda RX7. Bought one shortly thereafter and used it as my daily driver until 2004 when I started the 3 rotor conversion.
Prior to then, had done some 2-rotor upgrading. Had Pettit Racing in West Palm FL rebuild and street port the engine and put on a set of Pettit “blue printed and balanced” twin turbos along with the usual other Pettit goodies – flow thru exhaust, Pettit piggyback chip, etc. Car made around 320 WHP and was fun to drive. In 2004, sold my software company and had a decision to make – should I sell the FD and buy a Porsche GT2 or go for what was to me the ultimate in rotary conversions, the installation of a 20B? It was my wife that ultimately talked me into the 3-rotor conversion, rightly saying the FD was unique and why not build my dream rotary car? With her awesome backing, off I went on what I thought would be a 6-month process and one that I thought would cost $45K. 7 years later and over $100K less in the bank account, I am finally calling an “official” successful end to the build. A Cliff Notes version of the past 7 years: June 2004 – July 2005: Pettit Racing, West Palm Beach FL. Large shop, had done to date the most 3-rotor conversions in the U.S. Dropped the car off for the Banzai 3-rotor conversion. My car was the last Banzai Pettit did, completing a run of eleven. Expected completion time was 6 months. Actual completion time: 1 year – and two hurricanes later. Advertised WHP: 475 WHP. Actual: 397 WHP. Blew the twin turbo setup trying to make the claimed 15 PSI of boost. Car was fun but just didn’t seem as powerful as it should have been. First clue of impending problems. Fully expected the car to be "turn key". It became, however, a matter of diminishing returns at Pettit. The question was how long do I wait while the tuning takes place and is any progress being made? After several months of "tuning" and multiple trips to Pettit, I decided enough is enough and took the car without it being 100%. I could have kept the car there and forced them to fix it, but I don't think it would have made any difference. Sometimes you just deal with the reality and the timing of the situation. Lesson Learned – Discuss with your mechanic the details of the project, its cost, and timing. I've had work done at Pettit in the past and it all went well and was on time. With this project, I said "I trust you, do what is needed". Now that I know more about the whole 20B conversion project, I would have gone single turbo from the beginning and would have written a contract with a "max time limit" and cost on it. Most mechanics won't accept this though. Cost to Date: $55,000 on actual conversion costs, exceeding what I believe I can get for it in return (once you add in the actual value of the car also). The $55K does not include an additional $15K for one 2003 Mazda Miata for my wife as we’re down to one car during the conversion. Turns out to be a major PITA for her. Must make wife happy – Miata does the trick. August 2005 – July 2006: Wolf EMS USA in Sacramento CA Sent for single turbo conversion. Wolf tuning expert Chris Greene claims Wolf Australia wants to use the car as its “show car” entry into the US rotary market. Got great price on turbo kit – ASE Engineering BB GT42R turbo and equal length manifold, TurboSmart blow off valve - plus fuel system upgrades and installation and tuning, and ship the car cross-country to CA. Expected completion time: 2 months. Actual completion time: never. Car sits at “shop” while deadline after deadline passes. Chris decides to redo the wiring harness and hacks off the front support beam (neither authorized). Car is in a million pieces when Chris goes on a “walk about”, completely disappearing for many weeks. Local forum members including Karak help stake out shop and when Chris finally shows for work, have transporter pick up the car. Driver is shocked by condition of the car and finds several boxes to load up all the parts that are strewn everywhere. Car is taken to TX and Chris’ shop goes under a few weeks later, stranding half a dozen forum members and their cars as the landlord impounds them. Takes multiple weeks for forum members to get cars back. Lesson Learned: Talk is cheap and keep your car close. Chris certainly knows how to fabricate and to tune, but his actions did not match his promises. With distance comes a relaxed attitude of getting the work accomplished as routine check-ins on progress or the lack thereof would have certainly helped move things along. Cost to Date: $75,500 including $2,500 in transportation costs. August 2006 – November 2008: Gotham Racing, Fort Worth TX. Car is transported from CA to Gotham Racing, another big shop with a great reputation. When delivered, Gotham finds numerous issues with the car. Parts everywhere, wiring hacked up, engine left open and exposed to the elements. Due to backlog, car sits for several months before work begins. Gotham slowly pieces the car back together and promises delivery in August 2007. Gotham driver hits “swamp rat” on way to drop off car to me in New Orleans and has to limp the car back to TX for repair. A month later, the bad news is in – the engine built by Pettit Racing has metal shavings in it. Inspection reveals numerous mismatched and damage parts used in engine. Incorrectly pressed center bearing is cause of failure. Pettit initially denies engine is theirs, but ultimately comes thru on providing new parts, including thick center plate, new rotor housings, matched rotors, and new NRS ceramic seals. March 2008 – engine is back together and I fly out to TX with my father in law to break in new engine. Freak snowstorm hits and we slip slide our way back to the shop, almost taking out State Trooper in the process. Car undergoes several break-ins while at Gotham and new parts have to be ordered, including two new Haltech ECUs. Turns out employees are stealing from the shop as several of my engine parts “surface” when they are sold to a local RX7 owner who then contacts me. Not good. Gotham closes for business and car is taken over to Jotech (http://jotechracing.com/ - check it out, this is how a shop should be run), a mostly Supra tuning house. Kenny Tran and his brother treat my father in law and me like family and help to prep the car for final tuning. Car was supposed to be tuned by a former Gotham employee but he goes MIA and Steve Kan steps in to bring the project to an end. Finds numerous issues with the car that he fixes, but engine blows on the dyno during its last run – yes, seriously, the last run planned. Lessons Learned: The size of the shop doesn’t equal quality and it is hard to be a high priority when you are far away. Inspection showed my Pettit Racing “blue printed and balanced” race engine was not. In addition, Gotham had a great reputation and I was happy to have Steve Kan work on the car. Unfortunately this didn’t happen as by the time my car showed up at Gotham, Steve had turned over Gotham daily operations to others and the work suffered as a result with numerous delays of two years and in the quality of the end product, a blown engine. Cost to Date: $110,000 and counting. November 2008 – March 2009: Kilo Racing, St. Cloud FL. Jesus Saves! My father in law and I trailor the car from TX to Jesus Padilla in FL. His shop coincidently is only 2.5 hours from my home in FL. Damn ☺ At this point I am at my end and explain to Jesus he is my last resort and if he can’t fix the car, it’s out of the rotary world for me. Famous Jesus (known as “Kilo”) saying: “We’ll see”. Within a few weeks he calls me and asks me to come down to discuss the situation. The inspection revealed a center apex seal had blown but fortunately hadn’t caused much damage (ceramic seals are known to take out most everything, including turbos). The cause of the blown engine was advanced timing and Jesus estimated he could have everything rebuilt and back together within two or so months. Wait, what was this, only two or three months? Yes, he promises me it will be done and he was a man of his word. By March 2009, I pick up the car ready to go. The work needed on the car was much more substantial than just rebuilding the engine. Jesus redid just about all the wiring as he found many issues with what had been done by previous shops. He also went over all the engine bay components, redoing the AC and other items. He replaced the Haltech ECU with his favorite, a Microtech LTX-12s, which required rewiring the system. But the work is completed and I pick up the car, finally it is done! Lessons Learned: Sometimes experts can be close to home and they don’t need to be big shops. Jesus’ shop is just 2.5 hours away. He’s pretty much a one-man show but he really knows know his stuff. Look him up sometime. He and his son are big drag racers and are well known in that community. That is how I got to him. He had raced against Kenny Tran and Kenny really respected him and his knowledge. If you are in FL and need an expert, Jesus is your man. His contact info: 1110 Quotation Ct. Suite C, Saint Cloud, FL 34772 Phone 407-556-3971 Cost to Date: $115,500. That’s correct, Kilo Racing rebuilt the engine, replaced the ECU, rewired the car, and then completed the tuning for $5,500. Wish I had met Jesus before I began the 3-rotor odyssey with Pettit Racing and others but happy to know him now has a great rotary resource and as a friend. April 2009 – Present: Have been driving the car and tweaking it here and there. Been back to Kilo for additional tuning and to have the methanol/water injection reinstalled and activated. Car is now in the Asheville NC area. Will discuss this and more in the Next Installment: Engine Modifications and the Do’s and Don’ts of a 20B Conversion |
i'm glad you got the car back in one piece after the ordeal, got the other issues all worked out and seem to be finally enjoying the car. it has definitely been a LONG road for you David. it was nice to see your car and engine in person at least once(at Wolfe EMS), even though the circumstances following that went downhill quick, but eventually climbed back uphill again.
i'm definitely a promoter of solely run shops, you don't need a huge shop or to pay extravagant prices to actually have someone who cares about their reputation step in and do the job right(still trying not to sound biased). good job Jesus! |
Well I'm glad i got the long and short of your story David.
Good thread and look forward to more of your posts. |
^ Sure thing Drew. As an aside, I'm busy plotting out some DGRR roads and am going to start driving them next week so I can suggest some good alternatives to the Dragon. Tray up here is a great resource and he's been showing me the ropes and going out with me.
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After following the original thread and now reading the "Final Reflection" the one thing that really comes to mind is that David has the MOST patience I have ever seen....
Major props to Kilo for keeping David a Rotary Enthusiast.. |
Very nice david! Any specifics on the tuning end with the injection system? What mix of water/meth did you end up with?
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^ Thanks Garrett. Happy to be back on the road. I'll cover the injection system in the next installment but the skinny is it's an AEM unit that comes on with boost at around 10 PSI. I run a 50/50 ish mix of water to meth (I just put in Boost Juice which I think is 51/49) and when it comes on, it's 10% up to 50% at 18 PSI.
How about you? Got that thing back tougher in time for DGRR? Tuning? Kilo is right down the road from you. |
AI doesn't need to be super complicated, i've seen plenty of people try to well over engineer their system and in the end it still does the same thing as most other kits out there. a basic progressive kit is just fine for most any application with some warning indicators for faults.
sorry for the sidetrack. |
Originally Posted by David Hayes
(Post 10942137)
Tray up here is a great resource and he's been showing me the ropes and going out with me.
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Great anthology David....
I live only 40 minutes East of Kilo Would love to have Jesus sprinkle fairy dust on mine but he doesn't do PFC's..... |
Originally Posted by David Hayes
(Post 10942168)
^ Thanks Garrett. Happy to be back on the road. I'll cover the injection system in the next installment but the skinny is it's an AEM unit that comes on with boost at around 10 PSI. I run a 50/50 ish mix of water to meth (I just put in Boost Juice which I think is 51/49) and when it comes on, it's 10% up to 50% at 18 PSI.
How about you? Got that thing back tougher in time for DGRR? Tuning? Kilo is right down the road from you. |
Originally Posted by David Hayes
(Post 10942137)
^ Sure thing Drew. As an aside, I'm busy plotting out some DGRR roads and am going to start driving them next week so I can suggest some good alternatives to the Dragon. Tray up here is a great resource and he's been showing me the ropes and going out with me.
Thanks for your contribution. Can't tell you how sick I am of reading "how can I import an Fd from Japan" or "how much power will my Fd have if I add stickers all over it" hahahahahah See u at the gap! |
Originally Posted by moosejaw
(Post 10942343)
With the exception of what he has under his hood
Originally Posted by ttmott
(Post 10942384)
Great anthology David....
I live only 40 minutes East of Kilo Would love to have Jesus sprinkle fairy dust on mine but he doesn't do PFC's.....
Originally Posted by G's 3rd Gen
(Post 10942402)
Very nice! Its back together and I have done the break in miles and installed an aquamist kit. Suppose to be getting tuned this weekend by Gaby skern. If it doesnt work out I will take it to kilo sometime before DGRR!
Originally Posted by papsmagu
(Post 10942616)
Awesome thread but this post makes it 100 times better hahahahahah just joking
Thanks for your contribution. Can't tell you how sick I am of reading "how can I import an Fd from Japan" or "how much power will my Fd have if I add stickers all over it" hahahahahah See u at the gap! As for mapping out the roads, I am going by what you guys said last year - find some roads as fun as the Tail (there are a bunch of them here in Asheville and hopefully out by Nantahala also) that also have good food options. In the meantime, here is one of Highway 151, a popular road in the Asheville area. I've been on it and it is a lot of fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Dw7...eature=related |
Great thread and write up, thank you for sharing your experiences. And congratulations for building such a nice car.
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well i think i know where i might have to ship my car to get the 20B done lol. Great thread love the car. keep up the good work sir!
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Originally Posted by David Hayes
(Post 10941887)
Cost to Date: $115,500.
-Austin |
^Yep like I said, could have gone in another direction and probably would have if I had known then I was going to spend what I did. I have ended up though with something pretty cool and unique.
One of my main objectives with the thread is to help others achieve their goals without going thru what I did nor overspending to extreme levels. Hopefully what we'll discuss in future segments will help. |
Hey David. I didn't know you had the Pettit BBK. I just picked a used kit with slightly different calipers. Can you post a review and maybe some pics?
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Originally Posted by turbodrx7
(Post 10944095)
Soooooo many amazing cars could be purchased for this price, and you stuck tooling around in an FD. LMAO
-Austin Being in US he probably could've purchased a BMW M or a used Porsche but he can do that now if he wanted to, nothing missed, it is easy to buy a stock car if it's your dream. But one of projects like this are best realised when the fire inside is at its peak. |
^ I bought the car new in 1994 and paid cash:
https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1327067272 Paid $34,500 and thought I got a great deal. Didn't know Mazda was trying to get rid of the remaining FD stock then and had dealer incentives of around $4,500. Oh well. As for the conversion and what I paid, it was all cash. I also would have paid cash outright if I had not done the conversion and had purchased something else so turbodrrx7 has a point, one which I considered greatly before moving forward with the conversion. If I had known then I was going to spend what I did, I frankly would not have done it. But the positive is now it's done, I've got something unique. I see turbodrrx7 has an LSX in his car. He obviously saw something different about putting a Corvette engine in the FD versus just buying a Corvette. We all have our own motivations for what we do. Collin, I do run the Pettit BBK. Will discuss this more in the tires and suspension kit but it has saved me more than once, particularly on the Tail of the Dragon and following another crazy 20B (Silver FD from Ohio - you know who you are :) ) thru the Cherohala Skyway. |
i would have to say you definitely were taken advantage of along the way simply because the shop owners knew you had the money to front the project, many things likely didn't need to change direction or be upgraded and the car sat on waiting for those "upgrades".
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