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Relatively new to the forum - I’ve spent the past 13 months building a single turbo FD, and finally got it started the other day. I started buttoning things up, and was ready to see if it would move. Unfortunately, it wouldn’t go into to gear. It seems that I’m not getting enough throw at the slave (just my initial thought). I went back and bled the clutch some more, and managed to get a bit more air out of the system. I have about 1cm of dead play after the pedal pin makes contact with the master. Still can’t get the clutch to disengage. I have an exedy twin plate, and I can hear it clattering when I depress the clutch. Now I’m wondering if the wedge collar and snap ring are installed properly (see picture). I’ve searched to see if anyone else has had similar problems. To get more throw, just to see if I was on the right track, I adjusted the clutch pedal as far in as possible, and I still can’t get the clutch to disengage. Pedal feel is rock hard, so I’m at a complete loss. At this point, I’m wondering if I installed the clutch properly. Any help would be much appreciated (even if its just pointing me to a thread that I missed in my search)
Maybe the clutch fork has a cracked finger. The original 92 design could not handle upgraded heavier clutches and they would fail. Mazda came out with a stronger fork that used a better heat treatment to solve the problem.
My 1992 made fork failed after a short while due to using the ACT heavier pressure plate.
Or maybe you installed the disk backwards as a few have done.
I know the clutch was installed properly, and the fork is unlikely cracked. I inspected it carefully before installing, and I can watch the throw out bearing move when the clutch pedal is depressed. It doesn’t bind, or move “strangely”. Also, the car hasn’t been driven - the motor only has 10 minutes (yes minutes) of time on it.
….so I’m at a complete loss. At this point, I’m wondering if I installed the clutch properly…..
Originally Posted by trident
I know the clutch was installed properly….
Not familiar with the your dual plate clutch but on some/all of the conventional clutch discs, at least on this car, if you don’t pay attention to the typical
markings it’s pretty easy to install them backwards. There are other causes, but that will result in your symptoms.
Id try a prybar and push the throw out bearing into the clutch disc to lock it into the disc.
It should go in and lock pretty easy but if it doesn’t the disc could be backwards.
Good luck 👍
Steve
yeah, bit of a contradiction on my part with regard to the proper installation - IRP installed the clutch on a crate motor (out of the car), so I assume it was installed properly. I’ve been doing some reading, and for the exedy twin plate, some people have had problems with a bad intermediate plate, but this is after running for a while. This clutch is brand new…
Id try a prybar and push the throw out bearing into the clutch disc to lock it into the disc.
It should go in and lock pretty easy but if it doesn’t the disc could be backwards.
Good luck 👍
Steve
Steve, are you suggesting that the throw out bearing is not locked in based on the picture? The bearing does not pull out from the clutch, and it does move the pressure plate. I thought the wedge collar was out too much, but it seems to “work”
I had a very similar problem to what you’re describing with my exedy twin disk after I installed it. It would not go into gear with the engine running. If I turned it off, shifted into first and restarted it would work until I pulled it out and tried to go back into first. I adjusted the clutch to the max throw as well. Like you I could hear the mid plate chirping with the pedal depressed. I had a new oem clutch master, new oem slave, new oem throwout bearing and new clutch fork.
I will give you a couple things to check. First, if the disk were installed backwards and you try to start the car in gear it will lurch forward because the disk hat will be wedged against the mid plate. All hell will break loose if you push in the clutch with it in this configuration while running.. If you can start the car in gear and it just operates normal till you pull it out of gear I highly doubt they will be in backwards. Second, check that the pivot point in the clutch master cylinder pushrod is not worn thru the bushing into the aluminum clutch pedal arm ( under the dash). Third, make sure the slave is tight on the trans adapter and the adapter is tight onto the bellhousing. Fourth, the pilot bearing sticking will do this as well, but that involves pulling the transmission to check.
One of the downsides to the pull type clutch is the wedge collar. The fingers easily get bent and will pull cockeyed on the pressure plate fingers. The amount your wedge collar is pulled off the pressure plate looks odd to me. Having said that, mine was just like that when I was having trouble. I bought the act monoloc wedge collar to replace it thinking that was the problem ( involves pulling the trans which I got really good at after this issue) mine had three fingers bent. The negative was after I reinstalled everything with the new wedge collar it was a lot better but it’s still acted funny sometimes.
So I disassembled it a second time and sent the whole clutch assembly back to exedy. They checked everything and it was perfectly fine. When I received it back, I reinstalled it and still do not have enough throw to separate it enough to go into gear. Sometimes it would go in, sometimes it would not. Ultimately in the end I wound up machining the slave cylinder adapter down about 40 or 50 thousand. This worked perfectly. I believe that some of the assemblies are just slightly too tall when new and the disks because there’s two of them, have enough surface area to catch the mid plate and not allow the 1st gear synchro to slow down enough to get into gear. This has been my experience. I’ve been running the car for bunch of years now with no problems since..
Steve, are you suggesting that the throw out bearing is not locked in based on the picture? The bearing does not pull out from the clutch, and it does move the pressure plate. I thought the wedge collar was out too much, but it seems to “work”
Correct, that's what I'm thinking from your pic.... the throw out bearing is not fully locked into the disc.
The throw out bearing will be seated into the disc... yours is further away.
Heres what I mean
Last edited by estevan62274; 10-01-22 at 09:05 PM.
I had a very similar problem to what you’re describing with my exedy twin disk after I installed it. It would not go into gear with the engine running. If I turned it off, shifted into first and restarted it would work until I pulled it out and tried to go back into first. I adjusted the clutch to the max throw as well. Like you I could hear the mid plate chirping with the pedal depressed. I had a new oem clutch master, new oem slave, new oem throwout bearing and new clutch fork.
I will give you a couple things to check. First, if the disk were installed backwards and you try to start the car in gear it will lurch forward because the disk hat will be wedged against the mid plate. All hell will break loose if you push in the clutch with it in this configuration while running.. If you can start the car in gear and it just operates normal till you pull it out of gear I highly doubt they will be in backwards. Second, check that the pivot point in the clutch master cylinder pushrod is not worn thru the bushing into the aluminum clutch pedal arm ( under the dash). Third, make sure the slave is tight on the trans adapter and the adapter is tight onto the bellhousing. Fourth, the pilot bearing sticking will do this as well, but that involves pulling the transmission to check.
One of the downsides to the pull type clutch is the wedge collar. The fingers easily get bent and will pull cockeyed on the pressure plate fingers. The amount your wedge collar is pulled off the pressure plate looks odd to me. Having said that, mine was just like that when I was having trouble. I bought the act monoloc wedge collar to replace it thinking that was the problem ( involves pulling the trans which I got really good at after this issue) mine had three fingers bent. The negative was after I reinstalled everything with the new wedge collar it was a lot better but it’s still acted funny sometimes.
So I disassembled it a second time and sent the whole clutch assembly back to exedy. They checked everything and it was perfectly fine. When I received it back, I reinstalled it and still do not have enough throw to separate it enough to go into gear. Sometimes it would go in, sometimes it would not. Ultimately in the end I wound up machining the slave cylinder adapter down about 40 or 50 thousand. This worked perfectly. I believe that some of the assemblies are just slightly too tall when new and the disks because there’s two of them, have enough surface area to catch the mid plate and not allow the 1st gear synchro to slow down enough to get into gear. This has been my experience. I’ve been running the car for bunch of years now with no problems since..
~ GW
I actually just ordered the Monoloc earlier today - I am able to put the car in gear and start it, but I did have it on jack stands at the time. Might check on the ground. I like your idea of milling the slave cylinder adapter - seems like the easiest solution (after checking the wedge collar). Thank you for such a detailed answer.
I actually just ordered the Monoloc earlier today - I am able to put the car in gear and start it, but I did have it on jack stands at the time. Might check on the ground. I like your idea of milling the slave cylinder adapter - seems like the easiest solution (after checking the wedge collar). Thank you for such a detailed answer.
It is the easiest solution to the problem without having to machine a new taller slave cylinder push rod.
Couple things I forgot to mention. Did you check that the clutch disk (s ) slid freely on the splines of the input shaft? If the splines have a burr, that can make them act goofy too. Are you using a braided or the oem rubber line for the master / slave interconnection?
If you exhaust all options like I did and decide to adjust the slave adapter, make sure you remove material from the three bolt flange side ( bellhousing side). The adapter has a 18° or so on the slave side if my memory serves.
Also, fun fact. I run a big bore slave from feed. It makes the pedal effort feel like stock. https://www.rhdjapan.com/fujita-engi...nder-fd3s.html
It is the easiest solution to the problem without having to machine a new taller slave cylinder push rod.
Couple things I forgot to mention. Did you check that the clutch disk (s ) slid freely on the splines of the input shaft? If the splines have a burr, that can make them act goofy too. Are you using a braided or the oem rubber line for the master / slave interconnection?
If you exhaust all options like I did and decide to adjust the slave adapter, make sure you remove material from the three bolt flange side ( bellhousing side). The adapter has a 18° or so on the slave side if my memory serves.
Also, fun fact. I run a big bore slave from feed. It makes the pedal effort feel like stock. https://www.rhdjapan.com/fujita-engi...nder-fd3s.html
~ GW
when installing the transmission, I had trouble getting it to slide in. It is certainly possible that the disks are bound on the spline. I’ve installed many transmissions on different cars, and this was the most difficult to get aligned. It’s been lingering in the back of my mind as the culprit. I just got back under the car and released the wedge collar from the throw out bearing. I think the gap I’m seeing is just the way this clutch looks. It is engaged (maybe a bit closer). I am using a braided line. Just started the car to see if it would go in gear - no dice. I’m thinking the transmission is gonna have to come back out…
First off, before you do anything else, do you have a braided stainless clutch line? If not, stop, get one, then continue forward.
The stock rubber line has a LOT of flex. Any pressure plate that puts more load on the system will swell the stock rubber line. I've worked on cars that would only BARELY disengage the clutch at the very bottom of the pedal travel, and really not enough to properly drive. Simply going to the braided line and re-bleeding was all it needed.
If you have original clutch hydraulics (slave and master) replace those with new parts too.
Once bled, the clutch should have that slight free play slop at the top of the pedal then be solid all the way down if it's bled right.
I had a lot of trouble with mine as well. I did check all the stuff I mentioned prior, but believe I missed the wedge collar being bent or quite possibly bent it trying to install the trans. I can’t see from the photo but do all the white paint marks lineup on the twin disk? The factory paints a white stripe on them which has to lineup or the mid plate spring fingers can’t ride in their grooves correctly. You can rotate the engine and visually check this.
Also, make sure somebody didn’t loosen any of the bolts on the back side of the flywheel. These holds the stanchion risers onto the flywheel. If they are loose it will cause a big issue too. The directions clearly say to never touch them. I cannot remember the torque off the top of my head, but it’s worth checking to make sure none are loose before you pull the trans. You can get these bolts from the passenger side front bell housing cover located just behind the exhaust of the rear rotor.
You may indeed have to pull the trans, which is unfortunate, but the wedge collar alone is worth it for the more positive connection.
First off, before you do anything else, do you have a braided stainless clutch line? If not, stop, get one, then continue forward.
The stock rubber line has a LOT of flex. Any pressure plate that puts more load on the system will swell the stock rubber line. I've worked on cars that would only BARELY disengage the clutch at the very bottom of the pedal travel, and really not enough to properly drive. Simply going to the braided line and re-bleeding was all it needed.
If you have original clutch hydraulics (slave and master) replace those with new parts too.
Once bled, the clutch should have that slight free play slop at the top of the pedal then be solid all the way down if it's bled right.
Dale
Dale,
yeah, I have a stainless line, new master, and rebuilt the slave. The pedal has a solid feel all the way down, with about 1cm of “slop” at the top of the stroke. I’m fairly confident it is bled well. The clutch plates are aligned ( blue stripe painted from factory). As I said in my previous post, I’m concerned there might be binding on the spline based on how difficult it was to slide the transmission into place.
If your powder coating was applied heavy, it can definitely add some height to the mating surface of the slave adapter and or the clutch fork mounting area. It only takes 30 or 40 thou to not work. Adding height to any of these areas is counterproductive. I’m just spitballing here, but did you clean off the mating surface of those two pieces? Normally as I’m sure you know, when something like that doesn’t work it’s blatantly obvious. Like splines sticking, bent wedge collar, worn clutch pivot point ect ect. Good news is, if you don’t find anything and after you get the new wedge collar. You can make adjustments to the slave adapter height while the transmissions in the car.
If your powder coating was applied heavy, it can definitely add some height to the mating surface of the slave adapter and or the clutch fork mounting area. It only takes 30 or 40 thou to not work. Adding height to any of these areas is counterproductive. I’m just spitballing here, but did you clean off the mating surface of those two pieces? Normally as I’m sure you know, when something like that doesn’t work it’s blatantly obvious. Like splines sticking, bent wedge collar, worn clutch pivot point ect ect. Good news is, if you don’t find anything and after you get the new wedge collar. You can make adjustments to the slave adapter height while the transmissions in the car.
~ GW
thats a good point. The thickness of the powder coating didn’t cross my mind. I’ll pull the shift fork off, as well as the slave cylinder adapter off and make sure the mating surfaces are down to bare metal. Either way, I’m still gonna wait for the monoloc to arrive before re-installling.
Update us when you get it back together. I’ll look in my notes how much I had to cut the slave adapter plate in the twin disk car to get it to work correctly.
update- hard to see, but the pilot bearing is toast. It must have bound up when I installed it. Never drove the car, so hopefully the e shaft is ok…I’m guessing the lack of alignment was making the plates bind on the input shaft.
Pro tip - take the plastic clutch alignment tool they give you and cut about 1/2" off the end. The tips of the tools are too long and this results in the clutch many times not being properly aligned.
Get a new pilot bearing and seal and may be worth getting a proper install tool. Once installed make sure they have a healthy coat of wheel bearing grease. With the clutch/pressure plate installed you should be able to EASILY slip that tool in and out and it should make a hard air tight seal on the pilot bearing seal, like it will need a little oomph to push the tool in and will "pop" when you remove it.
Good thing you caught that pilot bearing issue now. I had one frag out while I was driving the car and it locked the engine and transmission together. I had to yank it out of gear and then couldn't get it back into gear. I guess I could have rev-matched it, but luckily I was in the driveway already. It was a bitch to separate the tranny from the engine, but when it finally did, all the rollers fell out and it all made sense.
Pro tip - take the plastic clutch alignment tool they give you and cut about 1/2" off the end. The tips of the tools are too long and this results in the clutch many times not being properly aligned.
Get a new pilot bearing and seal and may be worth getting a proper install tool. Once installed make sure they have a healthy coat of wheel bearing grease. With the clutch/pressure plate installed you should be able to EASILY slip that tool in and out and it should make a hard air tight seal on the pilot bearing seal, like it will need a little oomph to push the tool in and will "pop" when you remove it.
Dale
Thanks - I went ahead and got the proper tools (removal and installation) as well as a new pilot bearing and seal. Got em installed, now just wrestling with getting the transmission in - just doesn’t want to slide in. Walked away last night before tools started sprouting wings and flying out of the workshop . I read some other tips and tricks last night, so I’ll give it another go today. What I won’t do, is what I did last time, and try to use the bolts to seat the transmission.
I had quite the time trying to install mine with the twin plate. I think the neighbors still remember that day . What I found after I stuck my head up there and eyeballed it was the inner disk falls down a bit and the indexing of the splines between the front and rear disk isn’t perfect. I actually had to loosen my pressure plate and hold down on the back of the tool to push the front disk up centered. Even with that, my spline indexing from front to back plate was just slightly off making it a real pain. So what I did was actually twist the tool clockwise a little bit while it was loose to make the splines lineup better. I guess the tool I used was a little sloppy. It’s super easy to do this on the engine stand with the pressure plate facing up, but in the car not so much. Gravity is definitely not your friend there.
10-01-22, 06:05 PM
. I read some other tips and tricks last night, so I’ll give it another go today. What I won’t do, is what I did last time, and try to use the bolts to seat the transmission.
. What I found after I stuck my head up there and eyeballed it was the inner disk falls down a bit and the indexing of the splines between the front and rear disk isn’t perfect. I actually had to loosen my pressure plate and hold down on the back of the tool to push the front disk up centered. Even with that, my spline indexing from front to back plate was just slightly off making it a real pain. So what I did was actually twist the tool clockwise a little bit while it was loose to make the splines lineup better. I guess the tool I used was a little sloppy. It’s super easy to do this on the engine stand with the pressure plate facing up, but in the car not so much. Gravity is definitely not your friend there.