Can I fit WI with no remap?
11-28-12, 04:35 AM
#26
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Ok one minute the WI good the next is not I'm propa confused now I bought tue d2 kit already but I don't want to remap it cost me with travelling and stuff nearly 1k in pound it's a lot of money to remap stupid kit.I should bought fuel system instead ...
11-29-12, 11:36 AM
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my car mods are 450bh ATM at 0.9 bar hks pro f con ecu,twin power ,high capacity sard fuel pump,850cc injectors all round,366 Borg warner with 88 a/r ,4 inch intercooler,koyko rardatior ,greedy down pipe 3.5 inch ,cast turbo manifold and much more..
All I need to get better temp and get everything work nice and not to much heat that's all I dont want to add more power for the kit...and I don't want to remap as well..
All I need to get better temp and get everything work nice and not to much heat that's all I dont want to add more power for the kit...and I don't want to remap as well..
11-29-12, 11:48 AM
#31
Honestly, you might benefit from it. It would be really careless to not get a re-tune though. Depending on what it costs around you a decent bottom line tune should be $450 around here. That's honestly what you should get with this addition, think of it as preventative maintenance.
11-29-12, 12:41 PM
#32
As RenesisFD mentioned, you won't need a re-tune. However, if you are spraying water only, you will see a slight reduction in power. On the other hand, if you utilize 50/50 water meth you will see a slight bump in power from the decreased air intake temperature. Water alone will not reduce intake temps, but it will suppress knock. The methanol is what cools the temps and the mixture is ideally the best of both worlds.
A 300cc nozzle will do fine to start with. Also, with AI, you may want to consider a Twin Power or the AEM coils. It is a little more demanding on the ignition and our cars are known for being a little lacking as you approach mid 300hp and above.
A 300cc nozzle will do fine to start with. Also, with AI, you may want to consider a Twin Power or the AEM coils. It is a little more demanding on the ignition and our cars are known for being a little lacking as you approach mid 300hp and above.
11-30-12, 08:35 AM
#34
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
"my car mods are 450bh ATM at 0.9 bar hks pro f con ecu,twin power ,high capacity sard fuel pump,850cc injectors all round,366 Borg warner with 88 a/r ,4 inch intercooler,koyko rardatior ,greedy down pipe 3.5 inch ,cast turbo manifold and much more..
All I need to get better temp and get everything work nice and not to much heat that's all I dont want to add more power for the kit...and I don't want to remap as well.."
i will answer your question re re-tune or not but first let me ask you a question.
do i read you right that you are making 450 hp at .9 Bar and you have four 850 fuel injectors?
if that is the case i suggest you may have more important issues to consider.
i believe Europe speaks DIN rather than SAE so please allow me to adjust to SAE for a moment...
450 DIN is 439 SAE.
it takes 1.92 CFM to make one rotary SAE rwhp.
1.92 X 439 = 843 CFM
843/ 14.471 = 58.25 pounds per minute of air to make 439 SAE/450 DIN rwhp.
let's now assume you are running 11.3 AFR
58.25/ 11.3 = 5.154 pounds of fuel per minute
5.154/ 6.35 = .811 gallons of gasoline per minute or 3070 CC/Minute
so it takes 3070 CC/Min of fuel at 11.3 AFR to make 439 SAE/450 DIN rotary rwhp.
IF, i read you right....
you have 4 850 cc/min injectors.
4 X 850 = 3400 CC/Min
that is at 100% duty cycle. wide open not pulsing. overheating.
you run injectors at 85% duty cycle max unless you want trouble.
3400 X .85 = 2890 CC/Min
in addition, to get to net deliverability you need another deduct.... LAG
generally lag runs around 13%
(lag is not considered when rating injector at wide open since the slippage from opening and closing isn't happening)
so, 2890 X .87 brings you to a net fuel output from 4 850s of 2514 CC/Min
it takes 3070 of net fuel to make 450/439.
IF you have (only four 850s) and IF you are running 11.3 AFR and IF you are running 43.5 psi static fuel pressure you only have fuel to make
2514/3070 = 81.8%
.818 X 450 = 368 SAE/359 DIN
again, i am assuming only 4 injectors, an 11.3 AFR and normal fuel pressure.
if you ran a leaner AFR, say 12, you would make 391/381... but you would be running on the ragged edge at that point.
if you upped your fuel pressure 10% you would also make more power w the additional fuel but remember flow increases (only) w the square root. so a 10% increase in pressure would result in a 4.8% bump.
the primary reason i raise the fuel issue is your turbo. if you note the compressor map your turbo can make over 74 pounds of air. that's 557 SAE hp and you are tapped out on fuel miles below this number.
so IF you only have 4 850 injectors job one is to upgrade fuel capacity. you will need alot for the 366.
as to your question re a retune.... it is all about BTUs
fuel has positive (power) BTUs. water has subtractive BTUs.
there are 116,090 BTUs in a gallon of gasoline.... any octane gasoline.
you are outputting 2500 CC/Min which is .664 gallons per minute.
.664 X 116,090 BTUs per gallon = 77,083 BTUs to make 368 SAE/359 DIN hp
so let's then consider the subtractive side... 100% water injection
400 CC/Min of water is .105 gallons per minute
.105 X 8087 cooling BTUs per gallon = 849 subtractive BTUs
849/77,083 = 1.1%
given water effects your BTUs 1.1% there is no need to change your tune...
while were on the subject, many wonder about a 50/50 water meth combo which is, after 8 years of running, eating sleeping AI, what i strongly recommend...
again, look at the BTUs to find your answers:
a gallon of 50/50 (based on volume, not weight) WM:
water 4043 subtractive BTUs
Meth 28625 positive BTUs
net: a gallon of 50 50 Water Meth adds 24582 Fuel (additive) BTUs
using 400 cc.min...
24,582 X .105 = 2581 BTUs
2581/ 77,083 = 3.35%
so if you run WM 50 50 and your AFR is 11.30, if you add 400 CC of WM your AFR will be change to 10.92 AFR
please do let us know on your injectors and any other relevant info.
howard
All I need to get better temp and get everything work nice and not to much heat that's all I dont want to add more power for the kit...and I don't want to remap as well.."
i will answer your question re re-tune or not but first let me ask you a question.
do i read you right that you are making 450 hp at .9 Bar and you have four 850 fuel injectors?
if that is the case i suggest you may have more important issues to consider.
i believe Europe speaks DIN rather than SAE so please allow me to adjust to SAE for a moment...
450 DIN is 439 SAE.
it takes 1.92 CFM to make one rotary SAE rwhp.
1.92 X 439 = 843 CFM
843/ 14.471 = 58.25 pounds per minute of air to make 439 SAE/450 DIN rwhp.
let's now assume you are running 11.3 AFR
58.25/ 11.3 = 5.154 pounds of fuel per minute
5.154/ 6.35 = .811 gallons of gasoline per minute or 3070 CC/Minute
so it takes 3070 CC/Min of fuel at 11.3 AFR to make 439 SAE/450 DIN rotary rwhp.
IF, i read you right....
you have 4 850 cc/min injectors.
4 X 850 = 3400 CC/Min
that is at 100% duty cycle. wide open not pulsing. overheating.
you run injectors at 85% duty cycle max unless you want trouble.
3400 X .85 = 2890 CC/Min
in addition, to get to net deliverability you need another deduct.... LAG
generally lag runs around 13%
(lag is not considered when rating injector at wide open since the slippage from opening and closing isn't happening)
so, 2890 X .87 brings you to a net fuel output from 4 850s of 2514 CC/Min
it takes 3070 of net fuel to make 450/439.
IF you have (only four 850s) and IF you are running 11.3 AFR and IF you are running 43.5 psi static fuel pressure you only have fuel to make
2514/3070 = 81.8%
.818 X 450 = 368 SAE/359 DIN
again, i am assuming only 4 injectors, an 11.3 AFR and normal fuel pressure.
if you ran a leaner AFR, say 12, you would make 391/381... but you would be running on the ragged edge at that point.
if you upped your fuel pressure 10% you would also make more power w the additional fuel but remember flow increases (only) w the square root. so a 10% increase in pressure would result in a 4.8% bump.
the primary reason i raise the fuel issue is your turbo. if you note the compressor map your turbo can make over 74 pounds of air. that's 557 SAE hp and you are tapped out on fuel miles below this number.
so IF you only have 4 850 injectors job one is to upgrade fuel capacity. you will need alot for the 366.
as to your question re a retune.... it is all about BTUs
fuel has positive (power) BTUs. water has subtractive BTUs.
there are 116,090 BTUs in a gallon of gasoline.... any octane gasoline.
you are outputting 2500 CC/Min which is .664 gallons per minute.
.664 X 116,090 BTUs per gallon = 77,083 BTUs to make 368 SAE/359 DIN hp
so let's then consider the subtractive side... 100% water injection
400 CC/Min of water is .105 gallons per minute
.105 X 8087 cooling BTUs per gallon = 849 subtractive BTUs
849/77,083 = 1.1%
given water effects your BTUs 1.1% there is no need to change your tune...
while were on the subject, many wonder about a 50/50 water meth combo which is, after 8 years of running, eating sleeping AI, what i strongly recommend...
again, look at the BTUs to find your answers:
a gallon of 50/50 (based on volume, not weight) WM:
water 4043 subtractive BTUs
Meth 28625 positive BTUs
net: a gallon of 50 50 Water Meth adds 24582 Fuel (additive) BTUs
using 400 cc.min...
24,582 X .105 = 2581 BTUs
2581/ 77,083 = 3.35%
so if you run WM 50 50 and your AFR is 11.30, if you add 400 CC of WM your AFR will be change to 10.92 AFR
please do let us know on your injectors and any other relevant info.
howard
11-30-12, 03:44 PM
#36
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Thanks a lot pal fr explaining everyitng in order but that's a lot for me to take and understand because I'm not rotary expert at all but I know the mods on my car and stuff ,the injectors are 850cc all round as my ex tuner told me but I don't know how far I can push my car to take more power ,but I'm happy with what I got ATM and the main reason I bought aquamist d2 kit is to cool things down in engine and keep the car happy with low heat so can I do that with 50/50 mix and no remap?
Thanks.
Thanks.
11-30-12, 04:46 PM
#37
There's some correct answers and some incorrect answers in here. Hopefully no one takes this the wrong way but here's my experience; not to be confused with an opinion.
1) Will WI reduce intake temps?
WI will cool intake temps but not a substantial about like an alcohol. Surely WI will only drop your pre-combustion temps up to a point, once your blow 100c then the waters no longer going to evaporate, no evaporation no cooling effect. The way i see it is WI is by far more useful in the rotary combustion chamber, as temp's here are over 1000c evaporation is a given, this in turn cools inside the chamber reducing those hot spots that can often cause knock. To my mind that's really the major benefit of WI, not reducing intake temps.
2) Will WI reduce power?
Well.... Yes and no. If you run it as the op would with no map changes then YES! Yes, it will reduce temps. If you tune like me or you know someone that actually knows how to tune then NO. I say no as in my experience I've found that with WI I have been able to advance my timing by up 6 degrees over peak torque.
Now, just that I'm saying this do not just go ad arbitrary timing to you map if you're running water injection! This process of adding timing is only going to work well for someone that has consistent air temperatures. If you air temp correction isn't near instant or at low variance you might find yourself knocking on the wrong door.
There's more to all of this but I just wanted to clarify these to right now.
1) Will WI reduce intake temps?
WI will cool intake temps but not a substantial about like an alcohol. Surely WI will only drop your pre-combustion temps up to a point, once your blow 100c then the waters no longer going to evaporate, no evaporation no cooling effect. The way i see it is WI is by far more useful in the rotary combustion chamber, as temp's here are over 1000c evaporation is a given, this in turn cools inside the chamber reducing those hot spots that can often cause knock. To my mind that's really the major benefit of WI, not reducing intake temps.
2) Will WI reduce power?
Well.... Yes and no. If you run it as the op would with no map changes then YES! Yes, it will reduce temps. If you tune like me or you know someone that actually knows how to tune then NO. I say no as in my experience I've found that with WI I have been able to advance my timing by up 6 degrees over peak torque.
Now, just that I'm saying this do not just go ad arbitrary timing to you map if you're running water injection! This process of adding timing is only going to work well for someone that has consistent air temperatures. If you air temp correction isn't near instant or at low variance you might find yourself knocking on the wrong door.
There's more to all of this but I just wanted to clarify these to right now.
Regardless, methanol is best at cooling intake temps. Water has greater 'Specific Heat' and is best at cooling the combustion chamber. You DO NOT need to tune to it. In fact I'd discourage it. IMO Water is for safety, cooling and longevity. That said, it's been my experience that with a decent nozzle that's properly sized according to HC's formula you won't perceive a power loss. I speculate that even though methanol is better at cooling IATs, there is still some cooling with water, which may partially off-set whatever power loss there might have been otherwise. Someone here mentioned 5%. OK, maybe...but it didn't show up in a butt dyno.
IMO you also don't need any ignition amplification. I'm running an M3 nozzle, straight water on a boost activated system at ~ 2 psi, wth stock coils and stock heat ranges...and have never had ignition break-up. But temp spiking after periods of boost has all but disappeared, knock levels were reduced noticibly and the plugs have stayed cleaner longer even though I run the OMP with pre-mix.
11-30-12, 07:28 PM
#39
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
"I'm running an M3 nozzle, straight water on a boost activated system at ~ 2 psi, wth stock coils and stock heat ranges...and have never had ignition break-up."
an M3 nozzle flows 3 gallons per hour or 189 CC/Min. i doubt that amount of water would cause an ignition problem but i don't doubt it will help your motor a bunch and also keep the carbon build up to a minimal amount.
howard
an M3 nozzle flows 3 gallons per hour or 189 CC/Min. i doubt that amount of water would cause an ignition problem but i don't doubt it will help your motor a bunch and also keep the carbon build up to a minimal amount.
howard
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