Broke something immediately before the Super Bowl?
02-06-08, 09:16 AM
#27
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remeber the fd has a pull type cluch... make sure the fork and the throw out bearing are snapped into place and lubed up so it can easilly slide back and forth on the shaft..
02-06-08, 08:38 PM
#28
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I'm 95% sure it's either the pilot bearing or throwout bearing. The clutch is ALWAYS engaged; I started the car in 1st, and bounced the rpms around 5000rpms while driving in a parking lot. This was under the assumption that the disk had stuck to the flywheel. When I push the clutch in and rev, the car still goes, as if I never touched the clutch. So my only guesses are bearing and/or flywheel stuck to disk. Either way, I'll have to drop the tranny. Very glad I didn't order a clutch fork right away.
02-06-08, 08:42 PM
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After all of the complaining that my coolant seals were destroyed, it turned out to be a $15 problem; I had a brand new thermostat, so I never assumed that it could fail within a couple thousand miles. Sure enough, I replaced it, and bam; no more missing coolant. I *think* what was happening was this: the system always pressurized extremely fast, and the passenger side rad hose would still be cold as the car began to overheat. When I would lose coolant, I would always notice a minut amount near the overflow tank. I think the pressure was opening the rad cap and expelling all of my coolant into the overflow, then leaking out of that. Ever since I replaced the thermostat, I've had zero coolant issues.
02-08-08, 12:22 PM
#32
If its the pilot or throwout bearings it would make a ton of noise. The pilot bearing RARELY goes bad in this car. the throwout bearing will make chirping or grinding noises when the clutch is pressed. And yes you should change all the bearings and the clutch fork when you drop the trans. Its too much work not to do so and then do it again later down the road.
02-09-08, 12:25 AM
#33
Actually I have had a pilot bearing lock up and cause this exact problem...inability to shift with the engine running, as if you weren't pushing the pedal in. This was because the bearing had effectively locked the e-shaft to the trans input shaft, so that even when pressure was released from the clutch, the trans was still loaded and thus you couldn't shift.
The way I remedied this in the short term, to get the car moving again, was to lock the ebrake firmly and then push the clutch, put it in gear, and cranked the car until the bearing unlocked and the car stopped trying to lurch. This will get you by indefinitely until you decide to tear back into it, IF it is the pilot bearing. It should also be effective if the clutch disc is siezed onto the flywheel face.
And if not, you haven't damaged anything or lost anything, and still have the same options you had prior.
The way I remedied this in the short term, to get the car moving again, was to lock the ebrake firmly and then push the clutch, put it in gear, and cranked the car until the bearing unlocked and the car stopped trying to lurch. This will get you by indefinitely until you decide to tear back into it, IF it is the pilot bearing. It should also be effective if the clutch disc is siezed onto the flywheel face.
And if not, you haven't damaged anything or lost anything, and still have the same options you had prior.
02-09-08, 12:38 AM
#34
Actually I have had a pilot bearing lock up and cause this exact problem...inability to shift with the engine running, as if you weren't pushing the pedal in. This was because the bearing had effectively locked the e-shaft to the trans input shaft, so that even when pressure was released from the clutch, the trans was still loaded and thus you couldn't shift.
02-09-08, 01:31 PM
#35
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The way I remedied this in the short term, to get the car moving again, was to lock the ebrake firmly and then push the clutch, put it in gear, and cranked the car until the bearing unlocked and the car stopped trying to lurch. This will get you by indefinitely until you decide to tear back into it, IF it is the pilot bearing. It should also be effective if the clutch disc is siezed onto the flywheel face.
Oh, and if this remedy does work, should I replace my bearings anyway? What if is WAS the flywheel/disk?
Again, sorry for my repetitiveness, I'm just trying to make myself clear, and hopefully I can save myself some time by not having to rip my tranny out.
02-09-08, 02:13 PM
#36
Well, in my procedure above, you have to push the clutch pedal to try and start the car, because last time I checked, 87+ rx-7s wouldn't start without the pedal being pushed due to the clutch interlock switch.
Plus, the procedure won't work properly if you don't.
I obviously have a very good working knowledge of the clutch system. Perhaps you don't have a good visual of it yet, which is why you can't understand, so let me help.
The way it is supposed to work. You have a flywheel, which is basically the last piece of your engine. It turns with the crank/eshaft. Then you have a transmission, with an input shaft, that eventually sends power to the wheels.
Now...the transmission design is such that it can't be easily shifted between gears when the input shaft is loaded. IT can be shifted easily when the input shaft is not spinning. This can occur when the clutch pedal is pushed, or when the engine is not turning. This point is crucial. So someone had to come up with a way to remove the load (energy from the running engine) temporarily, to allow the normal shifting of gears. This is what the clutch does.
In your mind, picture that the clutch is attatched to the transmission input spline shaft. When the clutch disc is spinning, so is the transmission, and it is loaded.
Then picture in your mind the engine, flywheel, with pressureplate on the flywheel. The PP is the means of disengaging the flywheel's energy from reaching the clutch. The PP spins at the same rate as the flywheel, obviously.
Now picture the pressureplate and flywheel clamping on both sides of the clutch, like a pair of vise grips or a brake caliper over a brake rotor, gripping from both sides. So basically all 3 parts become one at that time. This is how your car is when the clutch pedal is out, and the engine's energy gets transmitted directly to the trans.
Now picture that you slide the pressureplate back off of the clutch disc by about half an inch. Now there is no contact on the back side of the disc. But the disc still rubs the flywheel, right? Actually the pressure that existed on the flywheel side, pushes the clutch disc backwards on the spline shaft a little bit...yes, it can slide on the spline shaft forward and backward as needed. So when the pedal is pushed, the flywheel and PP still spin, but the clutch disengages altogether from that energy load, as does the input shaft of the trans, and thus you can shift the transmission.
Stopping right there, we will discuss the clutch fork. The fork is the means by which energy is transmitted from the clutch pedal to the pressureplate. With no fork, or a bent/broken fork, you will not have full pressure or full travel in the pedal, nor will you be able to disengage the PP from the clutch. IF you know anything about piston engines, picture a cam, a pushrod, and a rocker/valve. The cam is your foot, only pushing at certain times. The pushrod is the hydraulic system the transmits the energy, including the clutch fork. And the valve that gets moved, is the pressure plate. So in a piston engine, if you have a bent pushrod, it is misshapen and becomes shorter, and can no longer fully reach the next part in line to make it move. Same for a bad fork...if it is bent or broken, you will not be able to disengage the clutch. This means you will be able to shift when the engine is not turning, but if the engine is running, you cannot.
CRUCIAL POINT THAT SOME HERE HAVE MISSED:
IF the fork is bent or broken, there will be no pressure or little pressure in the clutch pedal and hydraulics, because the fork is no longer making contact with the PP. The PP is what generates the resistance when you push the pedal. If you remove a PP and push on a clutch pedal, there is zero resistance, meaning your pedal goes to the floor and sticks.
So you say that you have pedal resistance and it feels normal, which tells me that your fork is fine, is transmitting the pressure to the PP and making it release off of the clutch disc.
So why won't it shift, then?
Time for more clutch basics.
Earlier I told you that when the PP releases, the disc is supposed to slide back on the spline shaft slightly, off of the flywheel whch is still spinning. This allows the clutch to decelerate, unload the trans input shaft, and let you shift.
What Ihor and others suggested is that your metal disc has welded itself to the flywheel on one side, OR to the pressureplate on one side. So that even when pressure is released, the disc sticks to one of these 2 moving surfaces, it doesnt decelerate like it should because it is still spinning at the same rate as the engine, and so it acts as if you never even pushed the pedal. The trans input shaft stays loaded and spinning, and you can't shift while the engine runs.
By following my procedure, you may be able to break the disc loose. Because we lock the e-brake firmly and put the car in gear, the trans is sending energy to the back wheels, but we keep the energy from being transmitted to the ground, which moves the car. So the disc and trans will tend to want to stay still because the back wheels are going to be locked from turning. The starter is trying to turn the flywheel/PP when you crank, yet the clutch disc is being held still, so we are trying to directly break the bond between disc and flywheel/PP. IF the starter can provide enough torque (you may use a strong battery charger for this) it can break the bond and thus make your car driveable again. The reason we have to push the clutch pedal, aside from the fact that the interlock switch won't engage the starter if we don't? IF you didn't push the pedal and hold it, then the clamping force of the PP would be holding BOTH friction surfaces of the clutch against the flywheel and PP...so of course the starter is not enough to make the disc slip. By releasing the clamping force, the only thing holding the disc to either flywheel or PP surface, is the metal bond of having melted itself there...this bond, the starter might just be able to break.
Now, on to the other, final cause. The pilot bearing. The PB sits inside the end of the eshaft, and the trans input shaft sits inside the PB. All rotaries have PB's because of the high rpm nature of shifting in a 7. If the input shaft were cut off short of the e-shaft, when you shift there is a ton of energy contained in the disc and this puts pressure on the input shaft, and thus the bearings in the trans that hold it straight. So help control this load, they made the input shaft longer, and the PB to hold it straight so it won't tend to wobble on the end and wear the bearings out in the trans. The PB allows the engine to turn at one speed and the input shaft to turn at another speed (or not at all), which is necessary for shifting as stated above.
So if the PB locks up, what happens? The engine speed and the input shaft speed are always the same, it's as if the input shaft is welded to the engine with no clutch at all. The trans stays loaded while the engine is running, and you can't shift, regardless of what the clutch is doing.
My method also resolves this. By locking the back wheels with the e-brake and putting the car in gear, we are forcing the trans input shaft to stay still. Then the starter is forcing the engine (and eshaft) to turn. The pilot bearing is left in the middle, and should eventually give up and either start turning again, or the needles inside will tear up and fall apart, which will also let the input shaft spin again, making your car driveable again. The reason we have to push the clutch pedal while doing this, besides the interlock switch? If you leave the pedal out, the PP is clamping onto the clutch, and so the engine and trans input shaft stay locked together. The starter is not strong enough to overcome this clamping force, so it can never break the bond between pilot bearing and input shaft. By holding the pedal in, we release the disc, and make the PB the only thing holding the trans and engine shafts locked together, and the starter might just be able to break that loose.
Many rotaries I take apart have a chewed up/destroyed pilot bearing when I get them, and have been running that way indefinitely. You can actually run with no PB at all and it will not change driveability, but it may wear your trans input shaft bearings out sooner. Of course in this day and age, the cars are cheaper to repair and used/jspec tranny replacements are cheap, so it doesnt really matter if this were to happen anyway IMO.
Oops, I lied, there is actually one more cause of this. Remember when I said the clutch disc should slide on the input shaft, so that when you release the PP, it can slide off of the flywheel and slow down? Well, when you do a clutch install you should always clean the splineshaft thoroughly, lube it with dry grease, and be sure that the disc moves in and out on it freely with a test fit before install. IF you fail to do this, dirt or rust can cause the disc not to slide properly. It can become stuck in the forward position, which is how it normally sits when at rest so it is most likely to become stuck there. IF it sticks, even though the PP releases and slides back, the disc cant slide away from the flywheel fully, and it still loads the trans input shaft making it hard to shift. If this is your failure (there is no way to know for sure) my method will likely not help at all, only a full teardown and cleaning/lube will.
Hope this helps you understand what is going on and what needs to be done to resolve it. IF you do unstick your setup with my method, you won't know if it was the clutch disc being welded to the flywheel/PP, or a pilot bearing. My vote would go to the PB, because I have never personally seen a clutch weld itself but I have seen MANY a bad PB. And if you do use my method and it works, you can at least drive the car to a good location to work on it (new clutch kit), or at most you can drive on it indefinitely if it seems okay, and see how long the current setup lasts. IF it was the PB, then you would likely not have another issue and could run indefinitely. IF it were the clutch disc, then it will likely happen again the next time you slip it hard, so you should plan to replace the whole flywheel/clutch kit at your earliest convenience.
Plus, the procedure won't work properly if you don't.
I obviously have a very good working knowledge of the clutch system. Perhaps you don't have a good visual of it yet, which is why you can't understand, so let me help.
The way it is supposed to work. You have a flywheel, which is basically the last piece of your engine. It turns with the crank/eshaft. Then you have a transmission, with an input shaft, that eventually sends power to the wheels.
Now...the transmission design is such that it can't be easily shifted between gears when the input shaft is loaded. IT can be shifted easily when the input shaft is not spinning. This can occur when the clutch pedal is pushed, or when the engine is not turning. This point is crucial. So someone had to come up with a way to remove the load (energy from the running engine) temporarily, to allow the normal shifting of gears. This is what the clutch does.
In your mind, picture that the clutch is attatched to the transmission input spline shaft. When the clutch disc is spinning, so is the transmission, and it is loaded.
Then picture in your mind the engine, flywheel, with pressureplate on the flywheel. The PP is the means of disengaging the flywheel's energy from reaching the clutch. The PP spins at the same rate as the flywheel, obviously.
Now picture the pressureplate and flywheel clamping on both sides of the clutch, like a pair of vise grips or a brake caliper over a brake rotor, gripping from both sides. So basically all 3 parts become one at that time. This is how your car is when the clutch pedal is out, and the engine's energy gets transmitted directly to the trans.
Now picture that you slide the pressureplate back off of the clutch disc by about half an inch. Now there is no contact on the back side of the disc. But the disc still rubs the flywheel, right? Actually the pressure that existed on the flywheel side, pushes the clutch disc backwards on the spline shaft a little bit...yes, it can slide on the spline shaft forward and backward as needed. So when the pedal is pushed, the flywheel and PP still spin, but the clutch disengages altogether from that energy load, as does the input shaft of the trans, and thus you can shift the transmission.
Stopping right there, we will discuss the clutch fork. The fork is the means by which energy is transmitted from the clutch pedal to the pressureplate. With no fork, or a bent/broken fork, you will not have full pressure or full travel in the pedal, nor will you be able to disengage the PP from the clutch. IF you know anything about piston engines, picture a cam, a pushrod, and a rocker/valve. The cam is your foot, only pushing at certain times. The pushrod is the hydraulic system the transmits the energy, including the clutch fork. And the valve that gets moved, is the pressure plate. So in a piston engine, if you have a bent pushrod, it is misshapen and becomes shorter, and can no longer fully reach the next part in line to make it move. Same for a bad fork...if it is bent or broken, you will not be able to disengage the clutch. This means you will be able to shift when the engine is not turning, but if the engine is running, you cannot.
CRUCIAL POINT THAT SOME HERE HAVE MISSED:
IF the fork is bent or broken, there will be no pressure or little pressure in the clutch pedal and hydraulics, because the fork is no longer making contact with the PP. The PP is what generates the resistance when you push the pedal. If you remove a PP and push on a clutch pedal, there is zero resistance, meaning your pedal goes to the floor and sticks.
So you say that you have pedal resistance and it feels normal, which tells me that your fork is fine, is transmitting the pressure to the PP and making it release off of the clutch disc.
So why won't it shift, then?
Time for more clutch basics.
Earlier I told you that when the PP releases, the disc is supposed to slide back on the spline shaft slightly, off of the flywheel whch is still spinning. This allows the clutch to decelerate, unload the trans input shaft, and let you shift.
What Ihor and others suggested is that your metal disc has welded itself to the flywheel on one side, OR to the pressureplate on one side. So that even when pressure is released, the disc sticks to one of these 2 moving surfaces, it doesnt decelerate like it should because it is still spinning at the same rate as the engine, and so it acts as if you never even pushed the pedal. The trans input shaft stays loaded and spinning, and you can't shift while the engine runs.
By following my procedure, you may be able to break the disc loose. Because we lock the e-brake firmly and put the car in gear, the trans is sending energy to the back wheels, but we keep the energy from being transmitted to the ground, which moves the car. So the disc and trans will tend to want to stay still because the back wheels are going to be locked from turning. The starter is trying to turn the flywheel/PP when you crank, yet the clutch disc is being held still, so we are trying to directly break the bond between disc and flywheel/PP. IF the starter can provide enough torque (you may use a strong battery charger for this) it can break the bond and thus make your car driveable again. The reason we have to push the clutch pedal, aside from the fact that the interlock switch won't engage the starter if we don't? IF you didn't push the pedal and hold it, then the clamping force of the PP would be holding BOTH friction surfaces of the clutch against the flywheel and PP...so of course the starter is not enough to make the disc slip. By releasing the clamping force, the only thing holding the disc to either flywheel or PP surface, is the metal bond of having melted itself there...this bond, the starter might just be able to break.
Now, on to the other, final cause. The pilot bearing. The PB sits inside the end of the eshaft, and the trans input shaft sits inside the PB. All rotaries have PB's because of the high rpm nature of shifting in a 7. If the input shaft were cut off short of the e-shaft, when you shift there is a ton of energy contained in the disc and this puts pressure on the input shaft, and thus the bearings in the trans that hold it straight. So help control this load, they made the input shaft longer, and the PB to hold it straight so it won't tend to wobble on the end and wear the bearings out in the trans. The PB allows the engine to turn at one speed and the input shaft to turn at another speed (or not at all), which is necessary for shifting as stated above.
So if the PB locks up, what happens? The engine speed and the input shaft speed are always the same, it's as if the input shaft is welded to the engine with no clutch at all. The trans stays loaded while the engine is running, and you can't shift, regardless of what the clutch is doing.
My method also resolves this. By locking the back wheels with the e-brake and putting the car in gear, we are forcing the trans input shaft to stay still. Then the starter is forcing the engine (and eshaft) to turn. The pilot bearing is left in the middle, and should eventually give up and either start turning again, or the needles inside will tear up and fall apart, which will also let the input shaft spin again, making your car driveable again. The reason we have to push the clutch pedal while doing this, besides the interlock switch? If you leave the pedal out, the PP is clamping onto the clutch, and so the engine and trans input shaft stay locked together. The starter is not strong enough to overcome this clamping force, so it can never break the bond between pilot bearing and input shaft. By holding the pedal in, we release the disc, and make the PB the only thing holding the trans and engine shafts locked together, and the starter might just be able to break that loose.
Many rotaries I take apart have a chewed up/destroyed pilot bearing when I get them, and have been running that way indefinitely. You can actually run with no PB at all and it will not change driveability, but it may wear your trans input shaft bearings out sooner. Of course in this day and age, the cars are cheaper to repair and used/jspec tranny replacements are cheap, so it doesnt really matter if this were to happen anyway IMO.
Oops, I lied, there is actually one more cause of this. Remember when I said the clutch disc should slide on the input shaft, so that when you release the PP, it can slide off of the flywheel and slow down? Well, when you do a clutch install you should always clean the splineshaft thoroughly, lube it with dry grease, and be sure that the disc moves in and out on it freely with a test fit before install. IF you fail to do this, dirt or rust can cause the disc not to slide properly. It can become stuck in the forward position, which is how it normally sits when at rest so it is most likely to become stuck there. IF it sticks, even though the PP releases and slides back, the disc cant slide away from the flywheel fully, and it still loads the trans input shaft making it hard to shift. If this is your failure (there is no way to know for sure) my method will likely not help at all, only a full teardown and cleaning/lube will.
Hope this helps you understand what is going on and what needs to be done to resolve it. IF you do unstick your setup with my method, you won't know if it was the clutch disc being welded to the flywheel/PP, or a pilot bearing. My vote would go to the PB, because I have never personally seen a clutch weld itself but I have seen MANY a bad PB. And if you do use my method and it works, you can at least drive the car to a good location to work on it (new clutch kit), or at most you can drive on it indefinitely if it seems okay, and see how long the current setup lasts. IF it was the PB, then you would likely not have another issue and could run indefinitely. IF it were the clutch disc, then it will likely happen again the next time you slip it hard, so you should plan to replace the whole flywheel/clutch kit at your earliest convenience.
Last edited by RotaryResurrection; 02-09-08 at 02:19 PM.
02-09-08, 02:20 PM
#37
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Sorry I didnt read the entire thread but I am wondering if your issue may have something to do with a bent release bearing ring?
If the ring bends it will alow the release bearing to pull right off the pressure plate.
I found this video which describes the problem pretty well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPCi4RpGQCU
If the ring bends it will alow the release bearing to pull right off the pressure plate.
I found this video which describes the problem pretty well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPCi4RpGQCU
02-09-08, 03:36 PM
#38
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Jesus, that write-up should be stickied or something. I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to write that out, it made things quite a bit more clear for me.
I have a battery charger that pushes around 50 amps(?), I'll hook that up tonight and see if I can't get it up and seperated. Now, I believe it may be the flywheel/disk rather than either of the bearings. Don't ask me why I think this, it's embarassing
The clutch/flywheel setup is only about 2000 miles old, and the PP is a little older; I should be able to reuse them.
I have a battery charger that pushes around 50 amps(?), I'll hook that up tonight and see if I can't get it up and seperated. Now, I believe it may be the flywheel/disk rather than either of the bearings. Don't ask me why I think this, it's embarassing
The clutch/flywheel setup is only about 2000 miles old, and the PP is a little older; I should be able to reuse them.
02-09-08, 11:13 PM
#39
The wedge collar, or release bearing locking ring, just serves to do that...lock the throwout bearing to the pressureplate in the FD's back asswards pull type clutch setup. If a wedge collar/ring fails, the throwout bearing will pull itself out of the PP, seperate, and you won't have any clutch pedal pressure nor will you be able to disengage the PP until you reconnect the TOB and PP. When i install engines I usually like to put a couple bolts in the bellhousing, seat the TOB into the PP and install the slave cylinder, and get in the car and give the clutch a few pumps to be sure that the wedge collar and TOB are locked properly and not coming back apart. I do this before I go any further with hooking up stuff, so that if for some reason I have to, I can remove a couple of bolts and yank the engine and resolve whatever issue there is.
I do this on cars where I am leaving the trans in, and dropping the engine in, which is most of the time. It is easy to let the trans input shaft catch the wedge collar/PP on the way down/in when doing an install this way, and even though I am careful I still like to make that check before going further. It would suck to have an engine dropped in, bolted up, fully connected and wet only to find out that either the engine or trans had to come back out to correct a jacked up wedge collar.
I do this on cars where I am leaving the trans in, and dropping the engine in, which is most of the time. It is easy to let the trans input shaft catch the wedge collar/PP on the way down/in when doing an install this way, and even though I am careful I still like to make that check before going further. It would suck to have an engine dropped in, bolted up, fully connected and wet only to find out that either the engine or trans had to come back out to correct a jacked up wedge collar.
02-09-08, 11:19 PM
#40
Oh...anytime you use a metal face disc for any length of time (more than a few miles) it will usually CHEW up the friction surfaces of both the PP and flywheel. The last car I took apart that had a 4 puck ACT in it for several years, had just EATEN the faces of the flywheel and the PP, some grooves up to 3/16" deep. Now that's an extreme example, and I wouldnt expect to see very deep wear after 2k miles, but I would expect to see some grooving like you might find on a brake rotor that had worn pads run against it.
IF you were going to run another metal face clutch again then you might be okay to reuse your other parts with some wear on them. But if you put a softer organic face clutch up against worn friction surfaces like that, it will get chewed up in short time and also have rough engagement/chatter. IF you can have the car down for a week or 2 in the garage, then go on and tear it all apart before ordering anything. IF you have to have it back together in a day or 2, I would order a full ACT SS clutch kit and also have a surfaced flywheel (or a new friction surface, for those who have aftermarket flywheels with replaceable ones) on hand to save time and be sure of a job well done. And even though I have never seen a broken one myself, you might have a new clutch fork on hand just for good measure.
IF you were going to run another metal face clutch again then you might be okay to reuse your other parts with some wear on them. But if you put a softer organic face clutch up against worn friction surfaces like that, it will get chewed up in short time and also have rough engagement/chatter. IF you can have the car down for a week or 2 in the garage, then go on and tear it all apart before ordering anything. IF you have to have it back together in a day or 2, I would order a full ACT SS clutch kit and also have a surfaced flywheel (or a new friction surface, for those who have aftermarket flywheels with replaceable ones) on hand to save time and be sure of a job well done. And even though I have never seen a broken one myself, you might have a new clutch fork on hand just for good measure.
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joel(PA)
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10-01-15 10:25 AM
