brake problems!!
02-09-05, 02:46 AM
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brake problems!!
so i went for a "drive" tonight up in the hills where its pretty twisty and no one is around... pushed the car pretty hard, and stayed on the throttle a little longer than i normally do through the straights. needless to say i was working the brakes harder than usual... and did a few pretty hard stops. anyway, i notice some smoke and some brake fade... so i stop, and there is tons of smoke coming from the wheel wells. the rotors were GLOWING RED... ive NEVER seen this before! whats the deal? im currently running hawk + pads w/ the stock brakes, and ATE blue fluid. any thoughts, other experiences, or recomendations. the brake fade was absolutely not fun, and the brakes still feel sort of softie. -heath
PS i also have slotted/drilled ebay rotors.... now im worried about using them. i can see why they would easily crack if getting to temps that would cause them to GLOW... i just never thought i was using the brake system to its full capacity as i havent been to the track yet.
PS i also have slotted/drilled ebay rotors.... now im worried about using them. i can see why they would easily crack if getting to temps that would cause them to GLOW... i just never thought i was using the brake system to its full capacity as i havent been to the track yet.
Last edited by RotorMotor; 02-09-05 at 02:52 AM.
02-09-05, 06:41 PM
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The only time I've seen rotors glowing red when there wasn't something wrong was during night racing, or on buses/semi's coming down the mountain at night.
Assuming in your situation these were not new rotors that still had some oil on them, or new pads that had not been bedded in, I gotta think something is seriously wrong for your brakes to be getting hot enough to have "tons of smoke coming from the wheel wells."
If it was me, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd first think whether I might have been just slightly resting my foot on the brake while driving. If it was just the rears, I wonder if I might have not completely disengaged the parking brake. If it was just the fronts and I had a line lock, I'd wonder if that wasn't disengaged.
If it wasn't user error, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd have to suspect something is going on that has all 4 calipers slightly actuated - but there aren't many things that will do that. Put the car up on stands and see if you can turn all 4 wheels by hand. You should be able to hear the brake pads touching the rotors, but you should be able to turn the wheels by hand. If it's just 1 corner, I'd suspect a stuck caliper. If it's both sides of the same axle, I'd suspect something wrong with the proportioning valve, or a pinched brake line.
Assuming in your situation these were not new rotors that still had some oil on them, or new pads that had not been bedded in, I gotta think something is seriously wrong for your brakes to be getting hot enough to have "tons of smoke coming from the wheel wells."
If it was me, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd first think whether I might have been just slightly resting my foot on the brake while driving. If it was just the rears, I wonder if I might have not completely disengaged the parking brake. If it was just the fronts and I had a line lock, I'd wonder if that wasn't disengaged.
If it wasn't user error, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd have to suspect something is going on that has all 4 calipers slightly actuated - but there aren't many things that will do that. Put the car up on stands and see if you can turn all 4 wheels by hand. You should be able to hear the brake pads touching the rotors, but you should be able to turn the wheels by hand. If it's just 1 corner, I'd suspect a stuck caliper. If it's both sides of the same axle, I'd suspect something wrong with the proportioning valve, or a pinched brake line.
02-09-05, 08:20 PM
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As times passes by the metal in the brake pad and rotors cryztalize (known as glazing). Your caliper pistons may be stuck, holding the brake pads against your rotors even if you are off the brake pedal. Drive in a straight line, apply your brakes, let off and let go of the steering wheel. The side you pull to is the side that have the faulty caliper pistions. Also, if your rotors got hot enough to run orange-red, then it surely heated up the brake fluid most likely causing it to bubble. Creating air in the brake lines. Other than your pads and rotors getting hot as hell = soft pedal, air in the brake lines will also make your pedal go to the floor.
Jeremy
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02-09-05, 09:30 PM
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It's something normal that usually happens on hard downhill driving - at least this is when it happens to me. Anyway, this usually means that the brake system was overwhelmed and the rotors will steel and harden and eventually warp, pads will burn and brake fluid will (partially) boil and create air in the lines (mushy feeling). I don't have personal experience with it, but I would say that only really high performance brake rotors and pads will survive such high temperature, because they're designed for it. My experience is, that after a couple of times seeing my rotors glowing they warped soon and pads burned.
The best thing you can do if this happens to you is to go drive as fast as you can without using the brakes (highway).
However, it looks really devilish in the night when your rotors glow red and smoke and everytime I saw it I regret I didn't have camera with me...
The best thing you can do if this happens to you is to go drive as fast as you can without using the brakes (highway).
However, it looks really devilish in the night when your rotors glow red and smoke and everytime I saw it I regret I didn't have camera with me...
02-10-05, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by macdaddy
The only time I've seen rotors glowing red when there wasn't something wrong was during night racing, or on buses/semi's coming down the mountain at night.
Assuming in your situation these were not new rotors that still had some oil on them, or new pads that had not been bedded in, I gotta think something is seriously wrong for your brakes to be getting hot enough to have "tons of smoke coming from the wheel wells."
If it was me, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd first think whether I might have been just slightly resting my foot on the brake while driving. If it was just the rears, I wonder if I might have not completely disengaged the parking brake. If it was just the fronts and I had a line lock, I'd wonder if that wasn't disengaged.
If it wasn't user error, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd have to suspect something is going on that has all 4 calipers slightly actuated - but there aren't many things that will do that. Put the car up on stands and see if you can turn all 4 wheels by hand. You should be able to hear the brake pads touching the rotors, but you should be able to turn the wheels by hand. If it's just 1 corner, I'd suspect a stuck caliper. If it's both sides of the same axle, I'd suspect something wrong with the proportioning valve, or a pinched brake line.
Assuming in your situation these were not new rotors that still had some oil on them, or new pads that had not been bedded in, I gotta think something is seriously wrong for your brakes to be getting hot enough to have "tons of smoke coming from the wheel wells."
If it was me, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd first think whether I might have been just slightly resting my foot on the brake while driving. If it was just the rears, I wonder if I might have not completely disengaged the parking brake. If it was just the fronts and I had a line lock, I'd wonder if that wasn't disengaged.
If it wasn't user error, and all 4 corners were smoking, I'd have to suspect something is going on that has all 4 calipers slightly actuated - but there aren't many things that will do that. Put the car up on stands and see if you can turn all 4 wheels by hand. You should be able to hear the brake pads touching the rotors, but you should be able to turn the wheels by hand. If it's just 1 corner, I'd suspect a stuck caliper. If it's both sides of the same axle, I'd suspect something wrong with the proportioning valve, or a pinched brake line.
i dont know... im just suprized that i reached the limit of the stock brakes. who knows... maybe the rotors that im using are made out of bad metal? maybe (well probably) the crossdrilled and slotted-ness decreased my heat holding capacity for the rotors? maybe there are better pads out there than the hawk +'s? i dont know... im searching for answers so this doesnt happen again. basically, the rotors got red hot, and applying the pads to the rotors when at that temp. just instantly incinierated that layer of brake pad and it just turned to smoke.
does anyone have recomendations? different/more hardcore pads? different rotors? i wish i had my camera because it was really quite a sight.... glowing red front rotors, and a glowing red turbo-manifold and glowing wrapped DP to match.... it was pretty cool!! next time i head out ill have to bring my camera
...anyway suggestions are welcome. -heath
02-10-05, 02:05 AM
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This in normal with very spirited driving on the right kind of roads. The FD is more than capable of fading the stock brakes (even with the best brake pads and fluid) with very hard driving. The fade was from overtemping either your pads or your fluid or both. It sounds to me like you boiled your brake fluid especially since your pedal is still mushy.
I have experienced smoking brakes (I'm not talking LOTS of smoke, just wispy fumes and burnt brake smell), glowing rotors and brake fade in may different vehicles including my RX7 when "driving enthusiastically" on the right kind of mountain/curvy roads.
What does this mean to you? It sounds like you have a good brake pad and properly working brakes. Just keep an eye on fade during this type of driving and you should be ok.
I find that the Porterfield R4-S pads are the best street pad as far as fade resistance and I've tried pretty much all the brands. However, they are a dirty pad (lots of brake dust) if that matters to you. Also make sure you have the highest temp brake fluid you can find. I like the Motul.
Adding dedicated brake ducting would be the next step but if this is just a very occasional incident for you I'd say you'd be better off adjusting your driving style on certain roads or just keeping close tads on the brake fade.
I have experienced smoking brakes (I'm not talking LOTS of smoke, just wispy fumes and burnt brake smell), glowing rotors and brake fade in may different vehicles including my RX7 when "driving enthusiastically" on the right kind of mountain/curvy roads.
What does this mean to you? It sounds like you have a good brake pad and properly working brakes. Just keep an eye on fade during this type of driving and you should be ok.
I find that the Porterfield R4-S pads are the best street pad as far as fade resistance and I've tried pretty much all the brands. However, they are a dirty pad (lots of brake dust) if that matters to you. Also make sure you have the highest temp brake fluid you can find. I like the Motul.
Adding dedicated brake ducting would be the next step but if this is just a very occasional incident for you I'd say you'd be better off adjusting your driving style on certain roads or just keeping close tads on the brake fade.
Last edited by John Magnuson; 02-10-05 at 02:08 AM.
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02-10-05, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by John Magnuson
This in normal with very spirited driving on the right kind of roads. The FD is more than capable of fading the stock brakes (even with the best brake pads and fluid) with very hard driving. The fade was from overtemping either your pads or your fluid or both. It sounds to me like you boiled your brake fluid especially since your pedal is still mushy.
I have experienced smoking brakes (I'm not talking LOTS of smoke, just wispy fumes and burnt brake smell), glowing rotors and brake fade in may different vehicles including my RX7 when "driving enthusiastically" on the right kind of mountain/curvy roads.
What does this mean to you? It sounds like you have a good brake pad and properly working brakes. Just keep an eye on fade during this type of driving and you should be ok.
I find that the Porterfield R4-S pads are the best street pad as far as fade resistance and I've tried pretty much all the brands. However, they are a dirty pad (lots of brake dust) if that matters to you. Also make sure you have the highest temp brake fluid you can find. I like the Motul.
Adding dedicated brake ducting would be the next step but if this is just a very occasional incident for you I'd say you'd be better off adjusting your driving style on certain roads or just keeping close tads on the brake fade.
I have experienced smoking brakes (I'm not talking LOTS of smoke, just wispy fumes and burnt brake smell), glowing rotors and brake fade in may different vehicles including my RX7 when "driving enthusiastically" on the right kind of mountain/curvy roads.
What does this mean to you? It sounds like you have a good brake pad and properly working brakes. Just keep an eye on fade during this type of driving and you should be ok.
I find that the Porterfield R4-S pads are the best street pad as far as fade resistance and I've tried pretty much all the brands. However, they are a dirty pad (lots of brake dust) if that matters to you. Also make sure you have the highest temp brake fluid you can find. I like the Motul.
Adding dedicated brake ducting would be the next step but if this is just a very occasional incident for you I'd say you'd be better off adjusting your driving style on certain roads or just keeping close tads on the brake fade.
02-10-05, 02:21 AM
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some googling on various pads:
"Porterfield Carbon/Kevlar Brake Pads
The R4-S street compound has a low wear rate & rotor friendly with a high friction level through all temperature ranges. Actual grip isn't a lot more than most sporty pads but they can maintain that grip when hot. Good for spirited canyon runs, autocrossing, some track days. If you are heat fading semi-metallic pads, these will help. Features built-in ceramic heat shield between backing plate and friction material.
We also offer the R4-E compound for time trials, open track days, road racing and Pro Rally. They eat the rotors, but not so bad as to keep me from them on my street car. What can I say, you get spoiled. They squeak like mad and eat one rotor per 2-3 pad changes if you leave them in all the time. But they stop the car now. Once they warm up, pure magic, cold, stopping is similar to a Metal Master pad. Most of our track customers put R4-Es in for the race weekend only and switch back to Metal Master pads for day to day use. We do carry the R-4 compound, it does not handle the high heat that the R4-E can. We have run R4-Es on rotors glowing so bright that you could see them glowing in the day light. The car still stopped... right up until the seals melted out of the caliper. The R4-Es still held together."
John Magnuson: can you tell me more about your experience with these pads? rotor wear? brake dust? cold stopping? they sound pretty freaking good when it comes to extreem conditions however... but maybe this isnt the best pad for everyday use?? id like to hear your take on them, as ive only used the stock pads and hawk+
"Porterfield Carbon/Kevlar Brake Pads
The R4-S street compound has a low wear rate & rotor friendly with a high friction level through all temperature ranges. Actual grip isn't a lot more than most sporty pads but they can maintain that grip when hot. Good for spirited canyon runs, autocrossing, some track days. If you are heat fading semi-metallic pads, these will help. Features built-in ceramic heat shield between backing plate and friction material.
We also offer the R4-E compound for time trials, open track days, road racing and Pro Rally. They eat the rotors, but not so bad as to keep me from them on my street car. What can I say, you get spoiled. They squeak like mad and eat one rotor per 2-3 pad changes if you leave them in all the time. But they stop the car now. Once they warm up, pure magic, cold, stopping is similar to a Metal Master pad. Most of our track customers put R4-Es in for the race weekend only and switch back to Metal Master pads for day to day use. We do carry the R-4 compound, it does not handle the high heat that the R4-E can. We have run R4-Es on rotors glowing so bright that you could see them glowing in the day light. The car still stopped... right up until the seals melted out of the caliper. The R4-Es still held together."
John Magnuson: can you tell me more about your experience with these pads? rotor wear? brake dust? cold stopping? they sound pretty freaking good when it comes to extreem conditions however... but maybe this isnt the best pad for everyday use?? id like to hear your take on them, as ive only used the stock pads and hawk+
Last edited by RotorMotor; 02-10-05 at 02:25 AM.
02-10-05, 07:13 PM
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My experience with the FD is that it is capable of fading the brakes and melting pads with the stock brakes regardless of what of pads or rotors you are using. Of course this is only under VERY sprited driving or on the race track. You should be just fine under all other conditions. The brake fluid you are using is a very high quality. Dump the cross drilled rotors before they crack on you. The Hawk pads are pretty good.
The Porterfield R4-S pad works very well for street use. With the occasional exception of your first stop on a very cold morning they are just fine when cold. Yes, it does make a lot of brake dust but it cleans up ok. I have never had brake noise problems with them but a few people have complained about noise (but I think they may have been using the R4 pad which is not suitable for street use). They don't wear out the rotors any faster than the factory pads.
Will the Porterfield R4-S cure your problems? Probably not. I have been able to fade them when I had stock brakes. They might allow you to brake better when your rotors are glowing hot.
If you want to continue with using your brakes so hard what you need to do is get more cooling air to your brake rotors. N-Tech makes a nice brake duct backing plate that I've used with much success.
Go ahead and try the porterfield R4-S pads. If they don't do it for you then get some dedicated brake ducting for your front rotors. If that still doesn't do it for you you'll have to get bigger brakes. But I have to say... if you are fading ducted factory brakes on the street you're driving pretty damn Gonzo.
-John
The Porterfield R4-S pad works very well for street use. With the occasional exception of your first stop on a very cold morning they are just fine when cold. Yes, it does make a lot of brake dust but it cleans up ok. I have never had brake noise problems with them but a few people have complained about noise (but I think they may have been using the R4 pad which is not suitable for street use). They don't wear out the rotors any faster than the factory pads.
Will the Porterfield R4-S cure your problems? Probably not. I have been able to fade them when I had stock brakes. They might allow you to brake better when your rotors are glowing hot.
If you want to continue with using your brakes so hard what you need to do is get more cooling air to your brake rotors. N-Tech makes a nice brake duct backing plate that I've used with much success.
Go ahead and try the porterfield R4-S pads. If they don't do it for you then get some dedicated brake ducting for your front rotors. If that still doesn't do it for you you'll have to get bigger brakes. But I have to say... if you are fading ducted factory brakes on the street you're driving pretty damn Gonzo.
-John
Last edited by John Magnuson; 02-10-05 at 07:17 PM.
02-10-05, 07:53 PM
#11
You may also want to upgrade to some BIGGER rotors, not stock-sized cross drilled/slotted rotors. What you're probably expierencing (based on the fact that you're using some really good pads/brake fluid) is that you've heat-soaked the rotors. the stock brakes just don't have enough surface area to dissipate this heat. Sport Compact Car magazine had a project RX-7 back in the late '90's, and they were expierencing exactly what you're expierencing now...brake fade during prolonged hard driving. Their first upgrade was to the Hawk HPS pad, but this only gave them a little more time on the track (3 more laps to be exact, thunderhill raceway in california) before fade became a problem. What is happening is that the steel that the brake rotors are made out of can only absorb so much heat before they start to loose their stopping capabilites. Part 3:
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/projec...04scc_projrx7/
They finally went to some AP Racing Champ Car rotors from M2 performance...13 inches around and made of steel, these were their answer...check out the link below to part 7 of their buildup, and that'll explain the rest that you need to know.
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/projec...11scc_projrx7/
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/projec...04scc_projrx7/
They finally went to some AP Racing Champ Car rotors from M2 performance...13 inches around and made of steel, these were their answer...check out the link below to part 7 of their buildup, and that'll explain the rest that you need to know.
http://sportcompactcarweb.com/projec...11scc_projrx7/
02-10-05, 09:43 PM
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^^^^amen!
Run 3" silicone brake duct tubing from the openings in your lip spoiler to the N-tech backing plates (or some similar set-up). $
If you're still overheating, you gotta go to bigger rotors to handle the thermal load. $$$
Run 3" silicone brake duct tubing from the openings in your lip spoiler to the N-tech backing plates (or some similar set-up). $
If you're still overheating, you gotta go to bigger rotors to handle the thermal load. $$$
02-11-05, 02:20 AM
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the ntech backing plate.... does anyone have a link to a site that sells it? is this similar to the carbon fiber backing plate with a dedicated ducting inlet that CWR (i think it was them) was making awhile back?
and how would one connect a tube up to the lip? is there an adaptor for either the 93 or 99 lip that connects the inlet to 3" tubing? sorry for the 20 q's... also what type of hose is this and does it interfere with wheel travel (either laterally or vertically?). thanks everyone... this is really helpful! -heath
and how would one connect a tube up to the lip? is there an adaptor for either the 93 or 99 lip that connects the inlet to 3" tubing? sorry for the 20 q's... also what type of hose is this and does it interfere with wheel travel (either laterally or vertically?). thanks everyone... this is really helpful! -heath
02-11-05, 10:43 AM
#15
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You have to do a bit of fabrication work to get the brake duct hose to attach to the R1 lip spoiler. I actually made a whole custom scoop and had to cut my lip spoiler opening larger (I didn't feel that stock size opening was adequate). Before that I zip tied some generic plastic brake duct inlets to the underside of the car but these got torn off easily in street use since they were kinda low.
The website for N-Tech is www.ntechengineering.com
I bought the baking plates as part of a group buy. I don't know if he has any in stock. Nick may have to custom make them for you. He makes very nice quality stuff.
The website for N-Tech is www.ntechengineering.com
I bought the baking plates as part of a group buy. I don't know if he has any in stock. Nick may have to custom make them for you. He makes very nice quality stuff.
02-11-05, 11:01 AM
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I used plastic "funnels" that end in 3" round tubes sold as "air inlets", and finagled them into place behind the R1 lip spoiler openings (the original brake ducts had to come off anyway for the dual 19 row Mocal oil coolers). I'm sure they would work better if I enlarged the opening in the R1 lip spoiler to match the size of the duct, but I didn't want to cut up my pretty new spoiler until I saw how well it worked. I've only had the car on track once since installing the ducting, and was on high performance street tires, not R-compound, but it was at a track famous for abusing brake systems, and it performed superbly. Here's the URL for Pegasus' brake stuff - hose, ducts, etc.: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/adv...ryID=BRAKEDUCT
02-11-05, 03:35 PM
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Do you have the factory R1 brake ducts? The R1 lip is designed to duct air back to the brakes, but with only the lip, it won't get there. You also need the U-shaped plastic pieces that are integrated together with the plastic pieces that go under the oil cooler(s). You can buy them from Malloy. The plus is that they are OEM, fit well, and don't cause problems dragging on the ground or anything. The minus is that the ducts don't go all the way back to the rotors like some aftermarket ones do.
I've done the same thing you have a couple of times. After this happened, I added the R1 brake ducts (already had the lip), got some better pads, and got Motul 600 fluid. It hasn't happened since. If it does, I may fabricate my own rotor hats and caliper brackets to fit 12.19" directionally-vented Wilwood rotors with stock calipers under stock 16" rims...
Gotta love bay area backroads... :-)
Take care,
Shad
I've done the same thing you have a couple of times. After this happened, I added the R1 brake ducts (already had the lip), got some better pads, and got Motul 600 fluid. It hasn't happened since. If it does, I may fabricate my own rotor hats and caliper brackets to fit 12.19" directionally-vented Wilwood rotors with stock calipers under stock 16" rims...
Gotta love bay area backroads... :-)
Take care,
Shad
02-11-05, 05:00 PM
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I've got a set of brand-new OEM R1 brake ducts if anyone wants them (PM me). I can't use them because the oil coolers get in the way. However, they just sorta suggest the air flows in the general direction of the front brakes - probably helps some, but nowhere near as helpful as getting a 3" brake duct hose to the backing plates.
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