BNR turbos?
02-22-08, 04:12 PM
#76
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I dont see any reason why they cant make 400 rwhp sequentially......a while back a guy with seq BNRs was having boost issues (go figure) on the dyno, so they temporarily ran him non-seq and he made right around 420 at 17, same as I did. This was with all the seq restrictions still in the system obviously.
02-22-08, 04:20 PM
#77
Gene I'm not picking on you. My answer was geared towards people who are expecting miracles out of the BNRs. Not you, your purpose is similar to mine. Except, I'd like to do it with the sequential setup. 375RWHP with a smooth transaction would be G-R-E-A-T!!!
02-22-08, 04:26 PM
#78
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/weird-boost-issue-341534/
There have been numerous posts from back in the day of people trying to run higher boost levels when M2 was selling their upgrades. All of them having issues with the sequential system. I don't know if any of those posts are still on the forum, but you could try PM'ing "artguy". He's one of the few still around who was actually wanting to keep the stock sequential system and make some good power.
If it was just as easy as just turning up the boost, you think it would have been done by now, don't you?
02-22-08, 04:46 PM
#79
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I wanted to add something else, the best transition I have been able to get is 15-12-15, thats with the stock solenoids, hooked up a little different, and running 2 3 port PWM solenoids to each the TC and pre control. It will only do this at 5K+ rpm, because pushing through cat converter it can't make 15PSI past the transition untill after that point.
I am controlling the 4 turbo controll solenoids of a single output, But, I am using relays (regular old relays) to do 2 things, 1 avoid overloading my haltech PWM out, and 2 insert a static delay between solenoids.
Basicly its like this 5K rpm switch directly connects to CRV close solenoid, and switches a relay which switches both TC solenoids closed (opening the TC gate about 20MS after the CRV starts closing. This switches a relay which closes the CCV solenoid opening the CCV 20MS after the TC gate starts opening.
By no means am I calling this the perfect setup, this is just what I through together after a couple of hours of pondering the system and it works pretty well.
Since a nipple broke off my CCV solenoid, causing me to either have to UIM to replace it I got lazy and bought 4 new mac solenoids to controll the TC gates and I will be installing them out from under the LIM.
I am controlling the 4 turbo controll solenoids of a single output, But, I am using relays (regular old relays) to do 2 things, 1 avoid overloading my haltech PWM out, and 2 insert a static delay between solenoids.
Basicly its like this 5K rpm switch directly connects to CRV close solenoid, and switches a relay which switches both TC solenoids closed (opening the TC gate about 20MS after the CRV starts closing. This switches a relay which closes the CCV solenoid opening the CCV 20MS after the TC gate starts opening.
By no means am I calling this the perfect setup, this is just what I through together after a couple of hours of pondering the system and it works pretty well.
Since a nipple broke off my CCV solenoid, causing me to either have to UIM to replace it I got lazy and bought 4 new mac solenoids to controll the TC gates and I will be installing them out from under the LIM.
02-22-08, 04:55 PM
#80
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Providing the solenoids arent leaking, the TC gate will open 100% if it opens at all.
Test it with hand pump with the car not running, all you have to do is presurise the boost chamber to whatever PSI you want, If the boost side solenoid doesn't open then thats something else entirley, but mine open the TC gate just fine at 15PSI.
I might have them hooked up slightly different from stock.
The solenoid going bad from too much boost and leaking, and solenoid not opening up at all are 2 different things entirley.
Test it with hand pump with the car not running, all you have to do is presurise the boost chamber to whatever PSI you want, If the boost side solenoid doesn't open then thats something else entirley, but mine open the TC gate just fine at 15PSI.
I might have them hooked up slightly different from stock.
The solenoid going bad from too much boost and leaking, and solenoid not opening up at all are 2 different things entirley.
It has already been noted that at higher pressures, the TCS do not operate properly. This is why a common fix is to install a regulator:
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=341534
There have been numerous posts from back in the day of people trying to run higher boost levels when M2 was selling their upgrades. All of them having issues with the sequential system. I don't know if any of those posts are still on the forum, but you could try PM'ing "artguy". He's one of the few still around who was actually wanting to keep the stock sequential system and make some good power.
If it was just as easy as just turning up the boost, you think it would have been done by now, don't you?
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=341534
There have been numerous posts from back in the day of people trying to run higher boost levels when M2 was selling their upgrades. All of them having issues with the sequential system. I don't know if any of those posts are still on the forum, but you could try PM'ing "artguy". He's one of the few still around who was actually wanting to keep the stock sequential system and make some good power.
If it was just as easy as just turning up the boost, you think it would have been done by now, don't you?
02-22-08, 05:28 PM
#82
I would say so. Once again, we can debate it all day long. Simple truth, I have not seen anyone on this forum generate 400rwhp+ using the stock sequential system, as I stated earlier. While you may not believe it, show some evidence that proves it. People run 17 PSI in no-seq mode to produce these peak numbers, so the system needs to be able to work at that level to even have a chance.
02-22-08, 05:48 PM
#83
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I would say so. Once again, we can debate it all day long. Simple truth, I have not seen anyone on this forum generate 400rwhp+ using the stock sequential system, as I stated earlier. While you may not believe it, show some evidence that proves it. People run 17 PSI in no-seq mode to produce these peak numbers, so the system needs to be able to work at that level to even have a chance.
I'm only saying that the changing the solenoids won't net more power, if the ones you have are working to open the gates. And that I am confident that the stock solenoids will do that because I have tested it, Hell I pumped the boost chamber up past 20 PSI with a bike pump, with car idling making vacuum and switched between seq and NS the TC and all solenoids opened fast and stayed open.
TRY IT!!!
Again maybe hooked up slightly different as all mine where hooked up so the default unenergized state was NS and the energized state was sequential. but pretty close.
02-22-08, 05:59 PM
#84
It was mere speculation on whether or not the non-Mazda solenoids would help. Many other cars (Porsche to name one) have produced sequential turbo cars which produced more than the little 360-380whp we see from our cars sequentially.
02-22-08, 06:05 PM
#85
You two should stop bickering. Mahjik is right, no proof no argument about the 400RWHP issue. Now, lets wait for ol boy to tune his BNRs with the Axiom Solenoids. I hope he goes ***** out without race gas.
Gene you going to run AI with your BNRs? Rich did you?
Gene you going to run AI with your BNRs? Rich did you?
02-22-08, 06:06 PM
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hmm so its pretty much wether or not we can get the solenoids to hold the pressure. or the lines from popping off correct?
I soo want the sequential twins but i also would love to hit 400rwhp while keeping the sequential system! if not 400 high 300's! in my mind it would make for the ultimate street fun car!!
I soo want the sequential twins but i also would love to hit 400rwhp while keeping the sequential system! if not 400 high 300's! in my mind it would make for the ultimate street fun car!!
02-22-08, 06:28 PM
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02-22-08, 09:22 PM
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I started having the bearing housings made in February of 07'. They are very nice and I love not having to do days and days worth of machine work in making the T28's fit all the stock oil and water lines.
Thanks for your business guys, I really appreciate it.
Bryan@BNR
Thanks for your business guys, I really appreciate it.
Bryan@BNR
Do you make them with non carbon seals by any chance
02-22-08, 11:56 PM
#91
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Someone shake my tree???
Someone dynoed 412 Sequential with them a year or so ago at 17 psi. I forget who did it so who knows where the dyno sheet is. A lot of people that I sell turbos to don't even get on the forum. The more and more of you guys that run 17 psi plus the more 400+ RWHP dynosheets we'll see. There is a bunch out there that run non sequential at higher boost levels that make well over 400 RWHP. When you get the boost above 16 you will be there on the 400 RWHP mark if you have all the right mods done to your car. Seems like converters rob 20-30 RWHP even if they are aftermarket. So a full exhaust car should make the most power possible.
Nightmare7, I can use a dynamic seal on the compressor side instead of the carbon seal. That seal is fine with synthetics. There isn't any price difference between the 2.
I don't get on the forum much so just email me if you guys have any questions.
Bryan@BNR
BNRsupercars@aol.com
Last edited by Bryan@BNR; 02-23-08 at 12:01 AM.
02-23-08, 12:21 AM
#92
Please somebody help!!!
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If lines popping off is the problem can you remedy it with connectors? In my ultimate setup i want to have wiggins clamps just about everywhere except for hump hoses to the intercooler end tanks. Granted then you'd have to run hard lines, but we're not exactly talking about stock engines are we?
02-23-08, 05:35 AM
#94
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+1 I AM there, just waiting on them being shipped. Im just trying to watch and learn as much as I can now, so I can hit the ground running, and start life at 18psi. Skys the limit after there as far as Im concerned 
The main difference is this will be going in my FB so the 500lbs (or so) weight differance will definately feel like more HP
The main difference is this will be going in my FB so the 500lbs (or so) weight differance will definately feel like more HP
02-23-08, 10:13 AM
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Someone shake my tree???
Someone dynoed 412 Sequential with them a year or so ago at 17 psi. I forget who did it so who knows where the dyno sheet is. A lot of people that I sell turbos to don't even get on the forum. The more and more of you guys that run 17 psi plus the more 400+ RWHP dynosheets we'll see. There is a bunch out there that run non sequential at higher boost levels that make well over 400 RWHP. When you get the boost above 16 you will be there on the 400 RWHP mark if you have all the right mods done to your car. Seems like converters rob 20-30 RWHP even if they are aftermarket. So a full exhaust car should make the most power possible.
Nightmare7, I can use a dynamic seal on the compressor side instead of the carbon seal. That seal is fine with synthetics. There isn't any price difference between the 2.
I don't get on the forum much so just email me if you guys have any questions.
Bryan@BNR
BNRsupercars@aol.com
Someone dynoed 412 Sequential with them a year or so ago at 17 psi. I forget who did it so who knows where the dyno sheet is. A lot of people that I sell turbos to don't even get on the forum. The more and more of you guys that run 17 psi plus the more 400+ RWHP dynosheets we'll see. There is a bunch out there that run non sequential at higher boost levels that make well over 400 RWHP. When you get the boost above 16 you will be there on the 400 RWHP mark if you have all the right mods done to your car. Seems like converters rob 20-30 RWHP even if they are aftermarket. So a full exhaust car should make the most power possible.
Nightmare7, I can use a dynamic seal on the compressor side instead of the carbon seal. That seal is fine with synthetics. There isn't any price difference between the 2.
I don't get on the forum much so just email me if you guys have any questions.
Bryan@BNR
BNRsupercars@aol.com
heck that sounds like a winner to me!! prob is im non sequential and I dont have my rats nest anymore :-( but im sure i can source some on the forum.. I'm just saying even 380hp sequential thats plenty for me but id love to hit the 400hp mark just cause im greedy!! just imagine the fun!! gaaaaooodddddd DDDDAAAMMMMNNNN!!! lol
02-23-08, 10:15 AM
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02-23-08, 11:57 AM
#99
I'm not sure Mahjik's point about spool up on singles was ever understood here. I know in the distant past (98-99) when I had gone to a T78 single turbo I tried to explain the difference and it never seemed to sink in.
Running twins that have "X" CFM flow and comparing them with a single with "2X" CFM at a given boost level, say, 15 psi, and saying that the twins got to full boost at 2000 rpm and the single didn't get there until 3500 rpm, and that, therefore, the twins had any advantage over the single is wrong. It is straightforward math, of course, but it still seems to elude people. However, the easiest way to understand it is to see a race between the two. The single will be down the road while the twins are puffing away at 15 psi and just not getting it. However, that said, you will feel "lag" and that bothers some people, me for one, but that has nothing to do with the power you are making and how you are getting down the road.
I always liked the sequential system, personally, and might have been one of the first people in 96 to go with a larger set of twins from PFS. When I went single, it made a huge amount more power. However, I got tired of the HUGE rubber band launch effect. As those of you who have driven 500+ whp cars will tell you, its a big big rush. However, it doesn't allow for much control over things, to say the least. I decided, again, personally, and being somewhat older than all but a handful of guys here, to go 20b NA, and add the torque that none of the 13b's can produce, all but huge singles, makes max power at 9000 rpm, and is very linear. No spool issues.
But, back to Mahjik's point, and I think its a very important one for those considering upgrades in power, a single at half boost can be putting down a lot more power than a set of twins at full boost. Its just that the kick-in-the-*** rubber band thrust from coming up to full boost occurs later. Not much later, mind you, but later.
On the other hand, smaller singles with ball bearings and water cooling, etc, can spool up very quickly anmd mimic the instant response of the stock seq twins, while still making notably more power, say, in the range of 400-500 whp. To me, this is a better option than than aftermarket twins, even though I really like the BNR setup. Obviously, I'm biased, since I like the instant response of an NA 20b.
Gordon
Running twins that have "X" CFM flow and comparing them with a single with "2X" CFM at a given boost level, say, 15 psi, and saying that the twins got to full boost at 2000 rpm and the single didn't get there until 3500 rpm, and that, therefore, the twins had any advantage over the single is wrong. It is straightforward math, of course, but it still seems to elude people. However, the easiest way to understand it is to see a race between the two. The single will be down the road while the twins are puffing away at 15 psi and just not getting it. However, that said, you will feel "lag" and that bothers some people, me for one, but that has nothing to do with the power you are making and how you are getting down the road.
I always liked the sequential system, personally, and might have been one of the first people in 96 to go with a larger set of twins from PFS. When I went single, it made a huge amount more power. However, I got tired of the HUGE rubber band launch effect. As those of you who have driven 500+ whp cars will tell you, its a big big rush. However, it doesn't allow for much control over things, to say the least. I decided, again, personally, and being somewhat older than all but a handful of guys here, to go 20b NA, and add the torque that none of the 13b's can produce, all but huge singles, makes max power at 9000 rpm, and is very linear. No spool issues.
But, back to Mahjik's point, and I think its a very important one for those considering upgrades in power, a single at half boost can be putting down a lot more power than a set of twins at full boost. Its just that the kick-in-the-*** rubber band thrust from coming up to full boost occurs later. Not much later, mind you, but later.
On the other hand, smaller singles with ball bearings and water cooling, etc, can spool up very quickly anmd mimic the instant response of the stock seq twins, while still making notably more power, say, in the range of 400-500 whp. To me, this is a better option than than aftermarket twins, even though I really like the BNR setup. Obviously, I'm biased, since I like the instant response of an NA 20b.
Gordon
02-23-08, 02:32 PM
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as i love the quick spooling of the sequential setup! if there was a single that would deliver full boost by 2500rpm and be able to hold to redline, and still produce 400rwhp numbers and be reliable then id def be intrested as im not wanting much more than that amount of power, but spool up is a problem for me and i want my car to build power very quickly.. not as you said a rubber band effect!! that annoy me to death!