GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Look into a water injection setup, I run 17 psi on pump with the aquamist and not one hint of detonation

prescription 7

iTrader: (5)

Great...now all the noobs reading this thread are going to turn their boost up to 15lbs on their stockers thinking is fine. Ppl plz understand that the guys who have done it successfully is only because they have properly tuned their cars and have invested in them to make them as reliably sound as possible.

Improved FD

methanol is a better solution...maybe someday, thanks to the work Brian and Howard are doing

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

That's why I recommend a water inj kit, you can buy one and have it installed and running in no time. The meth on the other hand, is going to be awhile before it is as easily installed and properly utilized

matty

i never liked the idea of haviong water in my egine. i am sure there is plenty of data outthere that shows its no big deal.....but thats just me.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

I recommend doing some research. That's about the same as saying, "i never liked the idea of having synthetic oil in my engine." If you ever want to run decent boost, you're looking at either water, meth, or c16.

matty

i also never understood why people are soo turned off from race gas. whats the big deal....if u need to crank the boost for a trip down the 1/4 or settling a grudge with a buddy slap some race gas in there. If i ever take my car to that level i will def go the race gas route as oppose to the other options.

matty

and actually i dont really agree with comparing water injection to synthetic oil. cars run synthetic from factory. water injection is in my mind is a very very "modded" setup. just a preferNCE THIGN. i dont see why someone would rather go this route then running race gas...whats the reason?

adrock3217

I can buy distilled water at my local grocery store (~1 mile). Can you buy race gas at your local grocery store? Oh and, its around $2 for 5 gallons.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

well, c16 is around $13 a gallon right now, and with a 20 gallon tank it gets expensive real quick. I inject windshield wiper fluid, which contains water and methanol and costs about $2 a gallon, and I have to refill my reservoir pretty sparingly. I like the fact that I can run 17 psi safely on pump gas, but am not burning up 13 buck a gallon fuel idling at a red light or cruising down the highway.

matty

i hear ya. i would do something like a 15psi setting and 22psi setting for those occassional runs. thats a good way to limit your fuel cost too.

BDC

Thanks Mark for pointing me out to this thread. A few things I'd like to comment on regarding boost and what's permissible on pump gas.

First, the term "boost" is an ambiguous figure in and of itself. About the only thing that seems to be fairly consistent with rising boost levels is a rise in the IAT's coming out of the compressor. Those IAT's still are a bit relative between compressor to compressor as well and those are subservient to that compressor's speed as well as its "landing point" on the compressor map w/ respect to its efficiency zones. Other than that, "boost" differs from turbo to turbo and turbo-to-motor combination. 15psi of boost on one car may be dramatically different from 15psi on another. The term we ought to focus on instead here is 'load' and not boost.

Given that, however, I still focus on keeping boost low on the cars that I tune with the exception of project cars here at my place. The intent there is to keep loads low. The term I use is "wiggle room" and those customers of mine with cars I've tuned will no doubt be familiar with that term. I believe in having "wiggle room" when it comes to the use of 100%, straight pump fuel because, and you can hang your hats on this, pump fuels are largely unreliable and they seem to only be getting worse over time. This is the stark difference between that and race fuels -- with race fuels, you are getting a 100% guarantee on what you are paying for. However, with pump fuels, they can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, from station to station, and even from pump to pump. It's possible to get bad tanks of fuel at pump stations. It's possible to pay for 93 and wind up with 89. These kinds of uncertainties along with the volatility of pump fuels in general (atleast in the US; this might vary from country to country due to differences in EPA-type regulations, for example) lend me to believe that we ought to tune on the conservative end while erring on the side of caution. With that said, I don't believe it's a good idea to stick to 15psi as some magic number and then therefore expect to have a wide range of reliability "because the guy on the forum does it and hasn't had a problem".

Several weeks ago I wrote a short article entitled, "Why our rotaries blow up and how to solve this problem". Although it's geared much towards the use of methanol as a partial fuel replacement for high loads and is more related to my own, on-going, personal experiment into alcohol injection, I feel that the first portion of this article will lend some useful knowledge on this subject we're talking about here. I hope you guys give it a read. I'll be anxious to receive your comments and criticism on it. Here's the link:

http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=50764

I hope this helps clear some things up. Perhaps it won't. Atleast this discussion is going on as it needs to be in the forefront of things, I think.

B

BDC

You bring up a good point here, Rich, and I think it touches on "the rub" that most everyone who's reached or passed your level has encountered -- the prohibitive cost of race fuel (for daily driving purposes) for the true guarantee of reliability that pump fuels cannot give.

I think this very problem is the sole motivator behind the AI (auxiliary injection) phenomena, not to mention what can be achieved with it atop pump fuels. As a friend Scott on TeamFC3S mentioned in a recent thread about this, race fuels (with respect to daily driving stuff to attain the same level of reliability) will become a thing of the past. It seems that AI can bridge the gap between low-cost pump fuels and high-end, reliable power that would otherwise only be available on expensive race fuel.

B

matty

whats wiggle room to you besides a 10.8 afr?

matty

who needs 550rwhp on the street everyday though? thats my point.

if u need it for the strip or that one off encounter to shut up a buddy why not just throw some c16 in then?

BDC

Running less load (and producing less heat as a result) on an inferior fuel that's not designed for it.

The problem isn't boost, or the lack of super-ninja unobtanium apex seals, or spark plugs, or anything else most people seem to harp about to create an allegedly "bulletproof" motor -- the problem is the fuel we're using with respect to the amount of power we're trying to attain. Somehow, somewhere, at some point, an idea was spread to the entire RE (13B) community that we can make 400+rwhp on pump fuel with a true sense of security. Nothing can be further from the truth -- it's right on the edge and if there's any one little thing that goes wrong or is ever-so-slightly amiss, poof.

B

BDC

I absolutely agree with you.

B

matty

goodfellas are doing away with your water injection?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

nope, why do you ask

matty

wondering cause u said u want crazy boost and was gonna run c16.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

nah, I'm going to keep it to run 16-17 psi on pump.

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

Translated, this means that you cannot defy the laws of physics...

At some point you will cram enough combustible mixture into the motor that it effectively becomes a diesel for a given fuel and set of conditions. That is not a good scenario. Let us not forget that compression an adiabatic process, liberating a great deal of heat.

The function of ultra rich mixtures (afr's) and water injection is the same. They are both coolants that remove some amount of heat from the combustion chamber (by conversion of heats). This reduces peak combustion temps/pressures somewhat which slows and stabilizes the combustion process, within limits.

The problem with race gas is that you've got to tune for it (for best results) and so it's not always convienient to use--especially if you are switching back and forth with pump. That's assuming you can get it. Many locations cannot..... So there is always the temptation to just use pump gas (and stay out of it) or to try and cut it just a bit more. Too much pump in a car tuned for c16 and BOOM.

Improved FD

or in my case, "poof" at least that's what happened with my previous mazda reman with the wimpy 2 piece, 2 mm seals....talk about junk....and I wasn't even boosting that hard, although I had loaded and unloaded the engine several times and it was a hot day, having fun with a 350Z

thanks for the comments Brian! looks like methanol is the wave of the future....gotta love it when your charge temps DROP (significantly) under boost!

Goukid2

Dam. Look what ive done started. Just wanted to know a little about the Stage 3's is all. I think i got more than what i asked. LOL. Cool though.

Fsunoles06

here's the thing with water injection...if you are tuning for water injection, it seems to me that its just another system that can fail and blow your motor. How reliable are these WI systems anyways?

Now if you choose not to tune for your WI setup, you have no problems if it fails on you, but at the cost of 30 whp.

So again, is 15 PSI really going to be that safe on pump gas consistantly? Probably not, unless you are sure you are getting 93 octane everytime at the pump. Even if you have those upgraded secondaries, you still can't guarantee the gas your putting in your car.

14 PSI more than likely will be a lot safer.