Improved FD

another "I need 450 hp"

350-375 hp is enough to light the tires in third gear in these cars...people looking for ultimate numbers ultimately end up throwing a ton of money down a rat hole and don't have a reliable street car, they have a dyno queen/drag car/freeway profiler

matty

how about u let the guy go after whatever goal he wants. who the hell are you to pass judgement? Jeeze man i will tell you....do u intentionally try to be such an ***?

~this coming from a guy who likes to send personal attacks via pm and then blocks u from pming back. Just so he can have the last word. What a bitch *** move!~

matty

you are wrong.

Jeeze asking questions then shooting people down that have owned these cars for close to a decade nice to meet u too.

BLitzed33

sorry for posting wrong section I guess

rynberg

Well that post contains interesting info but WTH does it have to do with BNR Stage 3s?

BLitzed33

Off topic, but its catering more towards the boost reliablilty debate...ErnieT would have to agree I would say that the BNR stage 3 turbos are the way to go for a fast response setup for road racing etc...
Guys one of the main reasons to ditch the twin sequenatial setup is heat retention. Ask anyone like Howard, Ray wilson, etc...going to single will get all that back pressure and heat out of the motor along with a nice free flowing exhaust. I ran 14 lbs of boost on upgraded oldschool PFS twins on pump. The motor went out from a bad stationary gear bearing. I decided to go single for the power, reliability and elimination of the rats nest etc...I did alot of research, experimented with things like water injection, race gas etc...and I have realized that it all comes down to TUNING and right FUEL for the application and being consistant with checking your fuel pressure and AFR's.
I will agree with the point that the stock twins have a point to where they become inefficient and just hurt performance for the extra heat they generate after their boost gets too high, and 15 lbs is the limit to where the efficiency becomes in question. Remember its VOLUME of air, not boost...10 lbs of boost on a set of twins is totally different from 10 lbs no a GT42R.
Water injection is great, if used properly and methanol injection is even better. When tuning with these....you have to lean out the a/f ratio to compensate for the extra water molecules in combustion where before there were O2 molecules. You can run more boost, however, if your system ever fails, you will go lean and have the possibility of detonating. Its always a gamble, but I know they make fail safe devices in most high end kits to warn of clogged nozzles or low fluid levels. Water cools combution temps, NOT intake temps. Methanol does BOTH. Good example of where water injection isnt always safe and really a bandaide for not wanting to pay for race gas is I know someone who turned the boost up to 18 lbs on water injection and I assume went to aggressive on timing advance on pump gas and blew the motor up.
I built my car with the intentions of having a really fast street car, be reliable, so I spent the MONEY to attain this goal. I went with a HUGE exhaust system, turbo a/r is 1.15 connected to a 4" downpipe and exhaust, no cat. I run two EGT probes in the exhaust manifold to watch rotor to rotor housing egts. I run the Xcessive LIM due to its equal length runners vs the stock ones which the rear runner tends to cause the rear rotor housing to run leaner because of the shorter path. Electromotive TEC3R because it has been proven time and again in big name cars...ray lochead, ray wilson, etc...and stock mount IC to have max cooling to my radiator.
I knew I wanted to run max boost, so I decided to run strictly C16 in my car. It was tuned to 27 lbs boost, and has been reliable for 5K miles of hard driving, probably double the abuse and wear vs a car with twins running 15 lbs with the same mileage. It is a weekend toy, so no I dont drive it daily, and I wouldnt want to drive a car like this for that anyway. I get my C16(117 motor octane) cheaper than most, but it is still out of control, without shipping it comes to like 8 something a gallon, but add about 75 bucks shipping freight on that for a 54 gallon drum.
I am one that likes to get into it alot, so I have just recently switched to CAM2 110 leaded (105 motor octane) and tunred the boost down to 20 lbs and detuned it a bit. The cost is half that of C16 and i can get it readily from a local pump. For street driving, 500whp@20psi is enough for me. It laid down 561whp on C16 with the turbo maxed out. And, NO you can never have enough power for the street, LOL...yea yea, traction...but then you go bolt on the MT ET streets for that, haha.
I have had my motor boost spike to 35+ lbs and still survive with C16 and water injection. I have also had my fuel pressure drop wayyy off and run lean and detonate that my ceramic on one of my plugs blew off and out the motor, but it still runs great. You see its all in the tuning, fuel, and checking the vitals of the motor consistantly.
sorry for the long post, but just wanted to explain where people go wrong with boost and application for the car....it all depends on what you are looking to do with it, then executing the proper way about modifying the car.
And improvedFD, what is wrong with wanting to make big hp numbers and actually have fun with it? You stated earlier about throwing money down a rats hole....well, maybe thats what you call it because you dont have the funds to build a 550+ whp FD and are jaded to the fact that people shouldnt spend that much money on a toy, but I will spend my money the way I want, and have fun with the end product as my is NOT a dyno queen, not a drag car, but a reliable, fun street car. My turbo spools and makes 27 lbs at 4400 rpms and pulls to 8500 rpms and the torque is nice and flat once full boost hits, and my turbo is non ball bearing. Its a nice 4K powerband.

Kento

You don't lean out the a/f mixture with water/methanol injection because you're "compensating for the extra water molecules"; you need less fuel to see power benefits (you don't have to lean out if you just want the safety margin) because the extra fuel that you were dumping to absorb the combustion heat is now just extra fuel period because the water/methanol is absorbing the heat, so you end up running way too rich.

If you were injecting enough water to displace enough oxygen to affect power production, combustion wouldn't take place, period.

OK, back to topic: BNRs appear to be the only way to go if you want to keep the stock sequential operation.

BLitzed33

You are still richening up the mixture period, esp when using straight meth as it is ANOTHER source of fuel you are adding to your existing ratio...most people tune to 11.0 or around there on pump, so now your in the 10's, and getting rich misfires at the upper rpm range. Go on the dyno, dont change anything in your VE tables, watch the a/f, you will find you need to lean it out to maintain your current a/f ratio's...and water isnt a fuel, so its doing nothing but taking up space in the combustion chamber, not burning as a fuel...yes you can lean out the a/f mixture and add in some timing to get more power with methanol. Anyway, not here to argue, and agree with you as far as the bnr's.

Kento

Sorry, don't want to sound like arguing here, just trying to be educational.

Yes, methanol can be a fuel, but note that in order for it to offer the same power production characteristics as gasoline, you need a much greater ratio of methanol than you would with gasoline. Ever see the a/f ratios of engines that run straight methanol? The great part of alcohol is that it absorbs more heat per weight than gasoline, and that's why it used so often in AI applications.
Read my previous post about why AI effectively richens up the a/f mixture...
If it's "taking up space", then why is it not displacing fuel as well as oxygen? Especially when considering that far less fuel is necessary per weight than oxygen in the combustion chamber?

BLitzed33

Yes I understand that you need double the volume of alcohol vs gasoline when buring a alcohol car.

The injectors spraying the same amount of fuel that you set them to, so that variable hasnt changed.....you are now mixing water and o2 in the intake tract where before you were only running O2 and changed that variable....the injectors are spraying the same amount of fuel as they were before and not being per say "diluted" with any other outside source.
In any case, I think its best to agree to have someone familiar with tuning water or meth injection if its going to be used.
I just run race gas myself and forget about the other stuff

BOTTLEFED

iTrader: (1)

why does this thread keep moving away from BNRs?

does anyone know the pros & cons of the BNRs compared to the M2s?

rynberg

Considering M2 sold less than 10 sets of those twins, with the most recent being over 3 years ago, I don't think you are going to get much data. Not to mention the fact that it would be extremely rare to find a used set for sale.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

From what I've been told, the M2's were twin T25s. The BNRs are larger that that.

Kento

Yes, but if this were true, it's not like the water/methanol is only going to displace the O2 in the intake tract; it's also going to displace fuel as well. Look, I'll simplify this: let's say air is represented by white marbles, fuel is represented by green marbles, and water/methanol is represented by red marbles. There's only so much room in the intake tract and the combustion chamber for a set number of marbles, no matter what color they are. So before with a standard engine, you only had a set number of green (fuel) and white (air/02) marbles in the intake tract. Now you're injecting some red (water/methanol) marbles into the mix. What makes you think that the red (water/methanol) marbles are only going to displace the white (air) marbles? They're just going to ignore the green (fuel) marbles and let them into the combustion chamber like some sort of gentleman? Now do you see what I'm getting at? The "displacement" theory doesn't have anything to stand on, because displacement in this case isn't selective.

OK, sorry for getting off topic, getting tired of the "oxygen displacement" myth, back to the BNRs/M2s upgraded twins.

BLitzed33

Basically the whole issue is you are going to have a richer a/f ratio when you use water or meth injection, and most likely will have to lean it out....that is what I have been saying the whole time. We have been going back and forth about why...but anyway, if we are displaceing fuel and o2... you are displacing fuel and o2 and its not being burned and just going out the tail pipe as unburned hydrocarbons. Sorry as well for off the topic. Kento, good talking with ya.

RICE RACING

My BNR's are coming soon

I cant wait, the car should be awesome. Its bloody good now, last night I raced a Supra which had a TO4Z FMIC etc on it (17psi) I had a female friend in the car and despite the extra wieght he could not catch me from 3 different 0-200kph acceleration runs Even in 3rd gear runs side by side and him bliping the throttle he could not past me (I generaly had a 1 to 3 car advantage in all tests).

He has 325rwkw my car has 240rwkw, it was very interesting to say the least and he was blown away witht he FD's perfomance.

Real excitied to see how the new turbo's will perform.

BOTTLEFED

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info on the M2s
Fritz has a set for sale, that is the only reason I'm considering them as an option - I have wanted a set of BNRs for about 2yrs now, but I always like to keep an open mind to different options
I'll talk to Bryan if need any more info

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

Bloody good indeed!

Are you on stock FD turbos? I wonder if [turbo] responsiveness has anything to do with this.... Hmmmm.

So I guess you're not in trouble anymore, right?

Kento

I said that in my first post in this thread...
If you are "displacing fuel and O2", then your a/f ratio doesn't change, right? My previous marbles analogy was to demonstrate that this talk of "injecting water/methanol into the intake takes up space that would normally be for O2, so you end up running richer" IS A MYTH. Think about how much air volume your FD engine ingests every minute, and then compare that with the amount of water/methanol injected. The reason that you initially end up with an a/f ratio that the engine has trouble dealing with after installing AI is because the extra fuel you were dumping into the intake charge to help absorb some of the excessive combustion heat has had its role taken by the injected water/methanol, so it ends up being just extra fuel, period. Before installing AI, that extra fuel was being used to absorb heat to help suppress detonation.

All combustion in the combustion chamber is the result of a chemical reaction; most of the fuel in the intake charge is used for the chemical reaction with oxygen that results in combustion-- but some of it is used for a much simpler chemical reaction that absorbs heat instead of creating it. Since the fuel went through a chemical reaction either way, your engine ran fine before installing the AI. When you took away the heat-absorbing chemical reaction with the AI, that extra fuel doesn't have anything to do, so you end up with an excessively rich a/f mixture. Get it now?

The fact that turbocharged rotaries must run a/f ratios that would be way too rich for a conventional engine is because they need that extra fuel to help cool combustion chamber temps, and it's a large part of the reason why they cannot run anywhere near the vaunted "stoichoimetric" a/f ratio that is said to yield the most power with the least emissions.

OK, sorry, back to the topic of BNRs/M2 upgraded twins. I was under the impression that the M2 twins were converted to BB. Is this incorrect?

BLitzed33

Like I said, the unburned fuel that was in the said mixture before ai, NOW is just going out of the combustion chamber as unburned.

Kento

Like I said ...I was under the impression that the M2 twins were BB conversions. Can anyone shed some light on this?

RICE RACING

For the parrotts who have trouble with water injection !

Water Injection INCREASES the air mass flow rate ! It does not decrease it !!!!

This is why its used in gas turbine engines to up their specific power or thrust rating. This BS about displacing marbles of air and so on is quite comedic to read but its very frustrating for an engineer like myself

Total air flow rate and power is increased by water injection, has been the case for the last 100 years

Kento

Apologies for apparently offending your engineering psyche, but I used the over-simplified marbles analogy in an effort to show that the "injecting water/methanol displaces oxygen so you run richer" statement is a complete myth to those who can't quite comprehend the physics of AI.

And so, back to the topic, shall we? Are the M2 twins actually BB conversions as I was led to believe a while back?

BLitzed33

squirrels

Kento

Sounds about right, since they sold less than 10 sets...