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Which is the Best Single Turbo Upgrade for the FD3S?

Old 07-07-13, 08:20 PM
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I know this thread started in '02 and it has all the OG members posting but I had to give props to Renesisfd. Amazing custom work and that looks like a short runner to. Maybe because it's missing the housing but if it is, dang who made that? The fitment is perfect.

I was looking for GTXR vs TDX61R and this is the closest I found.
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Old 09-20-15, 03:39 AM
  #127  
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Thread revival!
So i got my car dyno tuned on friday - 338hp @ 12psi on an honest dyno dynamics dynotech. Super straight lines no drop off.
S5 rotors, extended port, turblown tdx61, twin turbosmart 40mm gates with 7psi springs.
To be honest im a little bit dissapointed they couldnt sqeeze a couple more psi in, but then again much more and it'll be smashing drivelines; but im more dissapointed in the spool of the turbo.
Off the springs it holds a dead straight 7psi from 3000rpm, but @12 it doesnt get there until about 4500. Could be a boost controller issue (aem tru boost)?
Im thinking maybe ditch the ebc and chuck heavier springs in and an mbc.
The main question is would swapping out the billet TDX compreesor for the plain TD wheel be better for the lower boost levels?
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Old 09-20-15, 04:48 PM
  #128  
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338 at 12 psi on a dd is pretty much dead on and very good power. Thats near 390rwhp on a dynojet.

It sounds like you might have a boost or exhaust leak. It should make 15 psi by 3400 at the latest. Billet wheel is actually 50 rpms faster.
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Old 09-20-15, 08:46 PM
  #129  
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Thanks elliot, will check for leaks, but i think its ok.
Would a 57mm wheel be more suited to 12psi?
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Old 09-20-15, 09:49 PM
  #130  
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I say keep the turbo, swap in 10 pound WG springs, sort out your boost control issues, run 15 psi and be a happy camper

Not sure why anyone would go smaller than a 61mm compressor wheel on an FD to be honest. You've got a great setup, just tweak it and get the gremlins worked out
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Old 09-21-15, 01:54 AM
  #131  
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Cheers buddy. Yeah, im thinking its just a boost control issue too. Will have a fiddle with it and see what happens.
Its not an fd though, its a (mostly) s5 motor in an fb. Didnt realise what section this was till after i posted.
Yeah, i was hoping for 15psi but the tuner (rohan and chris at xtreme) felt it was at the safety margin for the inconsistant quality of pump fuel at 12. Got a water/meth set up on the shelf but driveline is probably at its limits already.
Once i get a fatter boost curve i will be very happy.
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Old 09-25-15, 06:56 AM
  #132  
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Actually, after taking it for another drive, it indeed does reach near full boost at 3400rpm. But I'm wondering,Turblown, what the difference in transient response between the ball bearing and journal bearing centres is like, and if it is possible to upgrade my chra to the tdxr spec. Cheers.
It actually does drive great, especially if i feed the throttle progressively, but would be amazeballs with a bit more insta-boost at lower revs in higher gears.
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Old 09-25-15, 09:39 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S View Post
I say keep the turbo, swap in 10 pound WG springs, sort out your boost control issues, run 15 psi and be a happy camper

Not sure why anyone would go smaller than a 61mm compressor wheel on an FD to be honest. You've got a great setup, just tweak it and get the gremlins worked out
Youve been rocking laggy singles for way too long.

I ended up settling on the 8374 EFR as the 9180 EFR never produced the response results that were claimed.

Built a car years ago with 57 or 58mm Garrett running around 18-20lbs and it was an absolute blast on the street. Everyone wants that big HP number but the thrill of the FD is often sacrificed. I'm hoping 450-475 is doable on the 8374 on pump/meth and 300 ftlbs by 3500 rpms or so.
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Old 09-25-15, 08:46 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by djseven View Post
Youve been rocking laggy singles for way too long.

I ended up settling on the 8374 EFR as the 9180 EFR never produced the response results that were claimed.

Built a car years ago with 57 or 58mm Garrett running around 18-20lbs and it was an absolute blast on the street. Everyone wants that big HP number but the thrill of the FD is often sacrificed. I'm hoping 450-475 is doable on the 8374 on pump/meth and 300 ftlbs by 3500 rpms or so.
This is not fast enough for you?( read caption).
Attached Thumbnails Which is the Best Single Turbo Upgrade for the FD3S?-efr-9180-iwg-response-30-psi.jpg  
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Old 09-26-15, 09:00 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by shawnm565 View Post
This is not fast enough for you?( read caption).
I've now seen multiple dyno graphs with the 9180 on different manifolds. None of them spool or put down great torque as advertised down around 3k rpms. I'm not going to get in a pissing match. I asked for dyno graphs with a good torque curve months ago and he hasn't been able to produce it. 9180 should be instant torque/response on a 3 rotor but everything I've seen(4 dyno graphs) on a 2 rotor it is still laggier than what I am personally looking for. Still incredible results for a 67mm but not the results originally promoted. Once again, best 550-600rwhp turbo hands down, just not what I was personally looking for.
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Old 09-26-15, 01:50 PM
  #136  
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you guys are comparing an IWG to an EWG.

I think the IWG mops up the external wastegate by good margin in response and low end torque.

I plotted some points on a chart just for comparison. these are from different set ups and different PSI and different dyno's and conditions, but generalities can be extracted from it.

The lowest torque produced out of the turbo's was a 8374 IWG V-mount set up. But I bet the EFR 9180 IWG ran on the same set up would be damn close at the same PSI, the 9180 is an IWG FMIC run on an FC with boost controlled down low, so it was held back. The 7670 at multiple PSI is an EWG and does not produce the same torque as the 9180 and 8374 down low or anywhere.

I think if you went V-mount, ran IWG with the cast manifold from turblown, tuned it well, designed a velocity stack, long CAI, the down low power would be great on an 9180. I am going to try it if I can get my hands on a turbo for a good price. otherwise its a 8374.

we'll see.
Attached Thumbnails Which is the Best Single Turbo Upgrade for the FD3S?-turbo-comparison.jpg  
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Old 09-26-15, 02:38 PM
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These last couple posts show how hard it is to compare turbos and find the "best" turbo.

We have someone posting results on E78 on high boost.

We have someone posting at low boost (pump gas?) and comparing the torque spread (the surgeline at high boost will really define the low rpm torque capability of each turbo as well as show the torque drop on the smaller turbos).

They are both valid comparisons and reflect how different people will use the turbos, but are totally different applications.

It is too bad we don't have the 8374 at 16psi in that chart for a direct comparison to the 9180.

Still, if I was looking for a single turbo to cruise the streets on pump gas I would take that 8374 every time. Just that extra 15-30ftlbs torque 2,500-3,500rpm (on 3psi less boost no less) where you spend a lot of time driving is worth gold to me.
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Old 09-26-15, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
These last couple posts show how hard it is to compare turbos and find the "best" turbo.

We have someone posting results on E78 on high boost.

We have someone posting at low boost (pump gas?) and comparing the torque spread (the surgeline at high boost will really define the low rpm torque capability of each turbo as well as show the torque drop on the smaller turbos).

They are both valid comparisons and reflect how different people will use the turbos, but are totally different applications.

It is too bad we don't have the 8374 at 16psi in that chart for a direct comparison to the 9180.

Still, if I was looking for a single turbo to cruise the streets on pump gas I would take that 8374 every time. Just that extra 15-30ftlbs torque 2,500-3,500rpm (on 3psi less boost no less) where you spend a lot of time driving is worth gold to me.
I am going to spin it around and ask, what if the efr 9180 run on a v-mount set up with all the fixings to increase spool basically matches the torque of that on an 8374? what would you do then?

because we are comparing two different set ups...and the 9180 was tuned down low to NOT be able to free wheel like the 8374 was. I am willing to bet if you let it go unabated at 14.5PSI its going to be about a wash in the torque. I would really love it for someone to compare the two.

We don't have any direct comparisons. all we can extract from the graph is the 9180 run at 15-16PSI has a better torque curve up top than everything compared. If we can modify the 9180 to get good spool, small intercooler, low pressure drop air filter, velocity stack in the intake, 3.5" downpipe, V-mount config, good timing and AFR for spool, I would like to see what she can do at 14.5PSI unrestricted. that is what I am going to try.
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Old 09-26-15, 02:52 PM
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quotes about the 9180.

"The 9180 only surges above 17psi below 3k and above 19 psi to 3500rpms roughly. " turblown

"Ran out of fuel pump( walbro 460LPH E85 version). E65 blend. It will actually make 17psi by around 3000rpms, but it will go into compressor surge, so I have backed the controller down around 2500-3500rpms. " Turblown

wondering if we could see what a 14.5 PSI run without backing it out would do.
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Old 09-26-15, 04:38 PM
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I am going to spin it around and ask, what if the efr 9180 run on a v-mount set up with all the fixings to increase spool basically matches the torque of that on an 8374? what would you do then?

If I wanted a single to tool around on pump gas- I would check to see if the 9180 also matched the response as well as the above mentioned torque of the 8374 and if it did I would use the 9180 instead of the 8374

Obviously, it won't as EFR turbos don't alter the laws of physics, but instead uses them to their advantage.

On your chart you show the 8374 on 13psi and pump making more torque 2,500-3,500rpm than the 9180 at 16psi.

Additionally, is the 9180 also on an E blend further improving spool?

-----------------
I'm over in Left field looking for a set-up more responsive than the 7670 I used last...
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Old 09-26-15, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
I am going to spin it around and ask, what if the efr 9180 run on a v-mount set up with all the fixings to increase spool basically matches the torque of that on an 8374? what would you do then?

If I wanted a single to tool around on pump gas- I would check to see if the 9180 also matched the response as well as the above mentioned torque of the 8374 and if it did I would use the 9180 instead of the 8374

Obviously, it won't as EFR turbos don't alter the laws of physics, but instead uses them to their advantage.

On your chart you show the 8374 on 13psi and pump making more torque 2,500-3,500rpm than the 9180 at 16psi.

Additionally, is the 9180 also on an E blend further improving spool?

-----------------
I'm over in Left field looking for a set-up more responsive than the 7670 I used last...


the 9180 was "detuned under 3500" because they were having compressor surge. if you run the 14.5 PSI it wont surge, so the tune held back the 9180 in those areas because it surges..........it was only making 8PSI by 3K to avoid surge. if you run the turbo a little lower, say 14 PSI and not de-tune the lower rpms I would bet it would be as good as the 8374....or damn close.

We do know that an EFR 8374 IWG spools faster than an external wastegate 7670 at 16 PSI.


Here is the dyno to show you the spool of the turbo, remember this isn't a short manifold, isn't a v-mount, etc. you can see the boost and rpm, he was getting 17PSI by 3,000 rpms but surges.....I am hoping I can have good luck with no surge on 14.5 PSI pump gas.

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Old 09-26-15, 06:00 PM
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You posted wrong video?

It shows 8psi @ 3,000rpm and full boost at 3,500-4,000rpm (hits 15psi as early as 3,500rpm with 17psi peak boost as early as 4,000rpm). Which is great for a turbo of this power potential!

This is on E which spools a turbo better and makes more power.

If the turbo was able to run higher boost at lower rpm safely... why limit it?

It is down 100ftlbs torque @ 3,000rpm from my EFR 7670 on gas because 9180 @ 8psi versus 7670 @14psi.

I see a great 500-600hp turbo; I don't see magic.
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Old 09-26-15, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post

You posted wrong video?

It shows 8psi @ 3,000rpm and full boost at 3,500-4,000rpm (hits 15psi as early as 3,500rpm with 17psi peak boost as early as 4,000rpm). Which is great for a turbo of this power potential!

This is on E which spools a turbo better and makes more power.

If the turbo was able to run higher boost at lower rpm safely... why limit it?

It is down 100ftlbs torque @ 3,000rpm from my EFR 7670 on gas because 9180 @ 8psi versus 7670 @14psi.

I see a great 500-600hp turbo; I don't see magic.
They limited the boost down low in the tune. since the turbo was ran at 17lbs and dropped a little at the end, the compressor would surge at 17lbs so they limited it down low so it wouldn't surge. it surges at 17psi, I am just saying that if you can drive the turbo to 14.5 psi at 3K, instead of 8psi, the torque could possibly be better or close to an efr 8374.

That video, the tune/wastegate/boost control limited to 8PSI produced 200 ft-lbs at 3,000 rpms.

I am saying if you drove 14.5 PSI at 3,000 rpms, what would the torque be and how would it compare to 14.5 PSI efr 8374. if you can drive the efr 9180 at 14.5 PSI and not have it surge it might produce the best torque curve possible of any EFR turbo running pump gas at 1 bar boost. that is all.

the efr 8374 can drive a lot more PSI on race gas or water/meth at higher pressures.
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Old 09-26-15, 06:14 PM
  #144  
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Yeah, I would like to see the 9180 operating near surge down low too- it would definitely help it make more low rpm power.
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Old 09-26-15, 06:18 PM
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I did see the boost start jumping ~3,500rpm 11psi, 14psi, 15psi, 14psi, 16psi, 17psi, 18psi, 17psi.

Is that just poor boost control or on was it on the edge of surge just there?
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Old 09-26-15, 10:10 PM
  #146  
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I had the controller completely off down low on that dyno video( its running medium wg spring pressure). I intend to dyno again hopefully this friday.
I will let it completely rip at maximum boost pressure the entire way( I have a shaft speed sensor installed now).

Here is another unfinished dyno chart from an E85 FD( not sure exact blend off the top of my head when I spoke to Luke last week). This is on a streetported 13B by HC. It has a the standard 3" DP configuration in our kit 8374 IWG kit.

This car is getting a dual port turbosmart IWG actuator next week and more boost. Peak RWHP is at 15.5 psi below.
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