rdahm

iTrader: (6)

I have an engine that runs great, stock ports 30k miles on it. its pulled and i want to do a reverse Howard Coleman.

I want to open the engine to document its condition, seal it back up, run WI til it dies, then document its changes

Other than that i have no intention of breaking open the block. Is it worth it in the name of rotary science? or am i going to unravel its innards? I have taken a 2nd gen engine apart, BUT with no intention of putting it back together. AKA vicegrips time!

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Ill save you the hassle, it will just have less carbon on the rotors. I have torn down blocks customers used Water/Meth injection on and the rotors only have a very very thin layer of carbon on them. The side seal and apex seal grooves have considerably less carbon packed down in them.

Supernaut

iTrader: (83)

Do it for great science!

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

If someone confirms that i dont have to buy new side seals or anything, ill do it. If i end up screwing up my water jacket and dump oil into my coolant, i guess thats my own fault lol.

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

The 2nd gen i tore into had what you said. I appreciate the insight. I want to see the "steam cleaning" with my own eyes, but it might be too big of a job for me, at this moment. idk

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Do you really have that much free time on your hands ?

I'll save you the trouble..... I recently tore down my old engine. 7 years, 20k miles, last 4 of those miles w/water injection--Aquamist 1s with windshield wiper fluid. I'll be happy to take pics and post them. Basically what snuggles said in post #2

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

lol no. But im gearing up for a Discovery Science show and im practicing on how to be more scientific. And i like creating new material for my website while im at it. So it does serve a couple purposes.

its been killing me looking at my engine block. Like schrodinger's cat, im wondering whats inside.

KKMpunkrock2011

iTrader: (5)

well if you're that curious, why not? after all it is one of the few things your site is missing, well as a quick reference anyways.

Supernaut

iTrader: (83)

Yeah but dude, once you open up your block, you determined the outcome.

joel_rx7

iTrader: (7)

David, do you confirm the trend with stock power engines?

I am only looking for reliability for the moment and have been wondering about AI for a little while (last time I looked at the AI subsection very few people with stock power were doing it).

Thanks,

milano maroon

iTrader: (1)

snuggles?

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Although I am not David, I can confirm the trend. Water injection (or w/w fluid, which I have used with much success) will yield the same results on a stock engine at 10 psi. You just won't need as big a nozzle.

DJ and I are tight like that

t-von

iTrader: (8)

If you have never successfully put a rotary back together, (and it ran) your asking for trouble. I highly don't recommend doing this untill you start getting comfortable re-assembling rotary's and making it run again. Their are a lot of FD specifc parts YOU WILL BREAK. As djseven said, you don't need to open the block. Documenting the carbon build-up can easily be done by pulling the turbos and inspecting the rotor faces through the exhaust port. The plates and housings aren't going to tell you anything. In my experience, I've found that most people start having more problems when they start tinkering with these engines than if they just left them alone.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

[soapbox]

I agree 100%. I've stopped telling people something similar because most don't want to hear it and think that working on these motors is a piece of cake, and that engine builders think they'll be losing work. Uh, news flash---- there are almost a dozen FDs at our shop right now needing engines. Trust me, there's enough work to go around

To do things RIGHT......ie install everything the proper way, with the proper clearances, and the proper torque specs etc etc is much much different than just slapping something together and crossing your fingers.

I appreciate that people want to learn, get their hands dirty, get intimately familiar with their FD and the rotary. But some (no one in this thread) imply that it's 'no big deal' to build a rotary. People who say that only scratch the surface, and have no idea in what's really required for a quality build. They also offend me given the care and pride we take in all our portwork and builds

[/soapbox]

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

I don't want to hear it! lol jk. Thats exactly why I asked. I don;t have the resources to rebuild an engine. I just wondered if I could take a peek. The exhaust port idea is phenomenal from the other poster.

im gonna do an aggressive streetport from memory with my hand file while im at it :-P

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Rich and I are lovers

djseven

iTrader: (56)

To the OP Rich and T-von have given great advice. If you tear down an engine with 30k it would be a waste not to replace the Apex Seals, Apex Seal Springs, Corner Seal Springs, Side Seal Springs, etc. It would be a necessity to replace the oil control o-rings, coolant seals, tension bolt o-rings, rear stat gear o-ring, front bolt o-ring, dowel pin o-rings, and thermal pellet. It would run you between $500-1250.00 depending what you choose to replace.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Believe it or not, there's a lot more information out there about building a rotary than almost any other type of engine except Ford and Chevy pushrod smallblocks. It just takes a lot of time, organization, and attention to detail to build one. The service manual procedure, a rebuild video, rebuildingrotaryengines.com , and forum searches are enough--and a lot of patience.

The key IMO is this--spend twice as much time during disassembly and inspection and you will save 5x as much during assembly and debugging. If you label every part and check/document every relevant clearance, step wear, endplay, etc you can do it. If you don't have the temperament for that kind of research and meticulous work then you will screw it up pretty bad.

After correcting minor oversights, my first engine started right up with perfect oil pressure. But I spent 7 months in my garage building it and only used parts that were well in spec.

no_more_rice

Would also be interesting to evaluate the effect of pre-mix with a high detergent additive such as Amsoil Interceptor, which is what I've been running.

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Good points.

Anyone can go over a shop manual and a few videos and you will put together a motor but how many guys really spend the money on the tools needed to put together a motor correctly.

When I started building my own motors I bought "average" and I spent over $1000 on tools to spec a motor. Just a basic set you need the right size micrometers, calipers, v blocks etc. Even with that you can buy an ebay mic set for $300 (fowler) or a mitutoyo mic set for over $1000.

Now don't get me wrong, the majority of the motors will spec pretty good but it's the ones with mis matched parts that cause an issue. When you have three irons from Bob and 2 housings from Joe and then 2 rotors from Ernie and you don't have the right tools to check anything, good luck.

That's why I recommend leaving motors to guys that do this day in and day out and have the right tools because the investment to do it RIGHT can be expensive to start.

You want to know a good engine builder?

Ask to see the tools they use to spec the motor or ask to see a spec sheet on the motor.

no_more_rice

Great post.

Shadetree rotary "mechanics" = epic fail (and there many of them out there)

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

Thanks,

Just to clear things up, my post above was not a plug in any way. I got a message asking about the price on a motor rebuild.

I do build motors but only for close friends or myself at no charge but for fun. Last motor I built Allen helped me. Enzo, Roan, Aaron and a few other friends came over and we hung out and BBQ'd while we worked on the cars.

If you need a motor built scroll above, you have DJseven and Goodfellas, they are the ones I meant that do it day and and day out.

Anthony

arghx

iTrader: (3)

This may be more of a problem with people who are reusing parts from high mileage original engines. Those are less common among the FD crowd compared to 1st and 2nd gen. If you buy new parts or low mileage JDM parts this isn't nearly a concern, especially on your typical 300-400whp FD build. I used mostly harbor freight tools though.

Some of the actual mistakes people usually make on the shortblock itself:

--insufficiently thorough cleaning of parts leading to problems like pinched coolant seals. if there's still crap in your seal grooves you'll have problems.

--improperly clearanced side seals. This is almost 100% patience! The factory specs have a wide tolerance. If they are on the loose edge of the spec due to wear you will get blowby and compression loss. To get a tighter clearance (but not too tight), you have to buy new ones and very slowly file down the seals and measure the clearance again and again. The first time I tried this it took me 15 hours to do 12 seals (obviously more experienced builders are faster), and I messed up 6 of them by overfiling or breaking them. That's where the patience comes in. You have to keep checking and checking, and if you break one you order more seals and wait.

--dropping a corner seal or an apex seal piece. This usually happens when you are trying to install the middle iron... you need a very good assistant to handle the e shaft when you are installing the iron

--endplay problems. The endplay is how much play the eshaft has in an axial direction. You are supposed to measure this with a dial indicator. Usually if you install a thrust bearing wrong your endplay will be messed up. The service manual clearly tells you to check it but a lot of people don't. I mistakenly crushed a thrust bearing on my engine but the bad endplay measurement told me of the mistake. I ordered another one and all was well.

--front cover & ignition timing problems... more of a 2nd gen thing due to particular manufacturing processes that Mazda used

--oil pressure problems. there are tricks to priming the oiling system that some people use.

rdahm

iTrader: (6)

arghx, nice post.

Nothing ive ever done once, works the way it should. Unless that goal was demolition only.

I need my car for April deals gap, so this sounds like a second engine task. Not that im going to buy one now.

Nomorerice, i wanted to see the same thing with the OMP to 2cycle. im doing that conversion right now as well. So its like the worst carbon buildup to the most optimal in todays standards.

ill try some exhaust port pics for sure.