jimlab

You're right. Four years makes a big difference.

Anyway, I'm sorry I rained on everyone's tea party. If I didn't think the FD was a very capable of platform and an absolutely incredible car with the right mods, I wouldn't be here. However, I have an extremely hard time swallowing the inaccurate "facts", false bravado, and convenient omissions of those who apparently believe that the rotary is perfect in every way. It's not.

However, my stating that doesn't mean that I believe V8s and Corvettes are perfect either. I'm not "for" one camp or the other. I'm realistic enough to know that all cars have good and bad qualities. No one brand or model of car is perfect. Some of you need to own a few more cars, perhaps, before you understand this for yourselves and can see where I'm coming from. If I really just hated the RX-7, would I own one and would I be bothering to invest time and energy in finding new ways to modify and improve upon the platform?

I know that it's a hard concept to grasp, but someone can actually like what they're talking about and still discuss its shortcomings. At length. And in great detail.

DamonB

HaHaHa. Last I recall Jim only has a few years on me...

Alright, I can agree with that.

Noted. So where does that leave us? I still think you have to double Mazda's given displacement to make it relative to piston engine displacement since we recognize the method of calculating piston engine displacement as "normal".

We call a 4 stroke piston engine's total swept volume its total displacement even though only half that displacement is making power at any given time. For me, that mean Mazda quotes rotary displacement 50% too small if we use the same convention.

bigmack000

why did i read all that why. who cares about the BS!!!!!! The fd is a great car and will always be a great car in our hearts. so leave it aloen guys. the fd was great when it was made and is no slouch now.
joel

DamonB

Yeah. I mean, I tell my girlfriend all the time what I don't like about her but I still love her (hoping gf does not read rx7club.com........ )

felix_is_alive

so 98horsepower per liter hhmm...whats a z06 let me see...5.7 liter, ...so theoretically that would make a 5.7 liter rotary a 550 engine more or less huh.
hhmm thats sounds better than the vettes 405hp doesn`t it ??
i just dont know maybe the zo6 is better (stock to stock) but guess what ,it took gm 10 years to come up with that .
in my book the guy who does it first ,he`s the man .
and also lets not forget the huge leap of years advance the piston engine has over the rotary ,its still a baby compared to the piston
and it can still run with the big boys

wingsfan

Gee, it's still a baby, just in it's infancy. It'll get better with time right (renesis anyone? No thanks here) Next thing you know you'll spout off about "what if the research for the rotary had the sme bankroll as the boingers do?" Just because it's younger and research is less funded doesn't mean that it will eventually be better than a piston engine (I know it's already better in many's opinions). There are physical limitations that I don't see the rotary overcoming to make that kind of displacement.

And, How much would that mythical 5.7 L rotary engine weigh anyhow? Since the LS1 weighs about as much as the 13brew with all the piping and turbos? Gee, bigger housings, bigger rotors, beefier eccentric shaft, or more housings, more rotors, longer eccentric shaft. None of that's going to increase the wiehgt, right?

And exactly what kind of mileage could you get out of it? Seeing as how I was getting about 12.5 miles per gallon with my 13brew before I pulled it, what would I get with a 5.7L rotary? About 3-5 miles/gallon or so? Anyhow, it would be less than the 28 published for the LS1. Pretty efficient there.

Anyhow, don't get me wrong. I love my FD. I loved it when it was wankel powered, and I love it the same now that it's piston powered. It's still a GREAT platform to build on, regardless of the source of powerpoint.

legal-z

We dont care if the corvette is better we like our RX7s!!

fd3boost's statement is pretty much what i meant when i started what has become this train wreck of a thread. i've driven quite a few newer, high performance cars and i still have a hard time finding one that i like driving more than my fd, including z06's, 911's, etc. sure, many of them are faster, but most that even compare are big $$ and not worth the price of admission in my mind.
i remember when i first drove a cym press car in late 1992 when a friend of mine from grassroots motorsports had the car for a day and at the time, i had a 911 turbo with a ruf 5 speed and the rx-7 shocked and amazed me. nothing i've driven lately has resulted in the same reaction from me since, including 993 turbos, the new m3 and m5 and z06's. actually, i drove a 360 and was similarly impressed, but i don't have $200k to drop on a car right now (if ever).
i'll take my $10k (last year) '94 fd with $5k in mods and be happy until i can afford that ferrari, or maybe as i said originally, until i get to drive the new elise.

felix_is_alive

why wont you guys (who believe so much in pistons)just go to www.v8club.com
5.7l is impossible, its a theory ,jeez dont you friggin rednecks get it
i am so tired ,the rotary sucks because of this because of that blah blah blah ,if its that bad then dont buy one ,dont get the body or chassy either ,if you like a piston that bad go buy a camaro ,or didnt the domestics make a nice enough body for their precious v8
yall hear

wingsfan

Let me start by saying if I wated a vette I'd just go buy a vette.

Anyhow, you hit the nail on the head right there. There isn't a nice enough domestic chassis (not an F-body anyways) that I'd trade my FD for. But there is a really nice v8 that will fit in the chassis that I already had on hand. I'll let you put 2 and 2 together.


and legal-z I like my RX-7 too, it just doesn;t happen to have rotary power anymore. I'll stay out of your thread now, since it seems like us rednecks aren't wanted.

Fd3BOOST

iTrader: (7)

You replaced the damn engine with a piston!!!!

I mean really.
Take the heart out of the damn thing then ask it to crawl why dont we.
LOL. You say your trying to improve on the RX-7 platform. I say you gave up on the platform and tossed it for something your more comfortable with.
The platform of any and all RX7s is a rotary engine Jim, I cant belive that you didnt know that one.

Also don't make assumptions that we all are under the dillusion that rotaries are perfect. I never said that nor did anyone else that I read. I would rather have my 13b than your LS1 anyday.
I like wankels for what they are. THey are unique and relatively young engines. I like what they stand for. A break from the norm from the usual means combustion.
Flawed as it may be it is still more unique and equaly impressive than anything invented for automobiles in this century (aside from hydrogen cars maybe)

What you do with your ride is your business, more power to you for all the work you've done.
But please don't come in here slinging the **** and then insinute that we are looking for an argument with you because we happen to like our wacky rotary engines..



Someone pour me another gin
Cheers

felix_is_alive

didnt mean it like that ,its just most people buy an rx-7 because its just that ,an rx-7 its different ,come on its having the only mass produced rotary powered car in the world,thats quite a statement
i like to be different ,just like the rx-7
sometimes its hard to imagine that somewone would rip that appart ....i guess if it works for you ?,... more power to ya

unixpilot

So who's the authority on displacement? The manufacturer and SAE or 3rd party racing organizations?

I say the reason the rotary is "forced" to double its displacement on the track is because it KICKS SO MUCH ***!

DamonB

Yeah. That sngle win at LeMans 10 years ago really showed the world who is boss

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

Actually the RX-7 and the rotary engine has a fantastic racing record.
http://me.a-spec.ca:6001/Other/Mazda...-RX-7-0018.JPG

http://me.a-spec.ca:6001/Other/Mazda...-Racing-04.JPG

http://me.a-spec.ca:6001/Other/Mazda...-RX-7-0019.JPG

Not to mention Rally champion, Multiple autocross national champion, Import national Drag champion, Firehawk series champion, etc.

BTW: - Most reliable make in 24 Hour LeMans = Mazda
- 67% of the cars entered have finished the race
- 55% for some french company that does not make production cars
- and all the rest Porsche, Audi, MB .. etc are below 50%

DamonB

Anybody who races will tell you that you don't show up to finish, you show up to win. Winning counts; anything else is just a statistic.

Porsche, Audi and MB all have more wins and history at LeMans than Mazda. For me that argument doesn't mean beans anyway. Mazda has this "superior" race history and yet they can't build a rotary that doesn't puke its coolant out inside (winess rx8club.com threads). I like the rotary because I'm a gearhead and I appreciate its "differentness". That doesn't mean I think it's better.

I mentioned earlier that just because I don't share the point of view of Mazda's "dominating" race history, that I think Mazda rates the displacement a little goofy, that I think 13B-REW's blow up constantly and that there are other cars I also like very much doesn't mean I hate my FD.

I love my FD; warts and all. Just because I love it doesn't mean I look at the rest of the world with blinders on though.

paw140

A little common sense and some education will go a long way. Think about it and figure it out yourself. DamonB is 100% correct.

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

posted by DamonB:
Anybody who races will tell you that you don't show up to finish, you show up to win. Winning counts; anything else is just a statistic.

**And if you don't finish you don't win.

Porsche, Audi and MB all have more wins and history at LeMans than Mazda.

**Maybe because they have been around longer?
Mazda has quite a history at lemans and the rotary engine has only been around for 30 years or so vs 110 for the piston.
http://me.a-spec.ca:6001/Art/24HLeMans.html
http://www.mymazdarotary.com/mazda_r...at_le-mans.htm
Also, Last time I checked Lemans was only one venue for racing. Look at IMSA/SCCA, Rally, etc.

For me that argument doesn't mean beans anyway. Mazda has this "superior" race history and yet they can't build a rotary that doesn't puke its coolant out inside (winess rx8club.com threads).

**Mazda has been building rotary engined cars for over 30 years. (Rx-2, RX-3, Rx-4, REPU, Rx-7 etc.) The first and second gen RX-7 had very little problems as did those other rotary powered cars I mentioned. The 3rd gen was the problem child. The RX-8 is a new design and many cars have slight problems. Compare it with other vehicles.
http://www.alldata.com/

I like the rotary because I'm a gearhead and I appreciate its "differentness". That doesn't mean I think it's better.

**Some here believe it is better, some don't it's just a personal opinion.

I mentioned earlier that just because I don't share the point of view of Mazda's "dominating" race history, that I think Mazda rates the displacement a little goofy, that I think 13B-REW's blow up constantly and that there are other cars I also like very much doesn't mean I hate my FD.

**I think you will find everyone else here likes other marks as well.

I love my FD; warts and all. Just because I love it doesn't mean I look at the rest of the world with blinders on though.

** I have owned multiple different marks from domestics to turbo Porsches. They all have had their issues, (I had a 928 GTS that had a 7000.00 repair bill.) Just because someone defends the RX-7 doesn't mean they have on blinders. Some just like one mark/model better than others. Cheers

DamonB

Not winning is called losing

**Maybe because they have been around longer?

So what? Where's Mazda's dominance now? Heck, Mazda has not built a rotary engine in 10 years! Why not put "superior" rotary power in everything they make? Why go 10 years with no rotary when most enthusiests would say the rotary is the heart of Mazda? IMO when you get down to it the rotary is a marketing tool.

Fact is Mazda has not chosen to enter any upper tier big time racing in anything resembling recent history. Why not? One big handicap with the rotary is that to make power you get atrocious fuel mileage. That alone is a big problem in competition for rotaries.

**Mazda has been building rotary engined cars for over 30 years. (Rx-2, RX-3, Rx-4, REPU, Rx-7 etc.) The first and second gen RX-7 had very little problems as did those other rotary powered cars I mentioned. The 3rd gen was the problem child. The RX-8 is a new design and many cars have slight problems. Compare it with other vehicles.
http://www.alldata.com/

The Renesis is not the clean sheet of paper design that many like to call it; it's certainly just a cousin to the 13B. Absolutelty there are other new cars with problems, I mention the RX-8 because the rotary crowd has been screaming until they are blue in the face that the new and improved rotary engine is here. "New" I can see, "improved" I have not seen yet. IMO there's no excuse for not engineering the most common rotary failure out of the engine: coolant seal failure.


**Some here believe it is better, some don't it's just a personal opinion.

Agreed.



**I think you will find everyone else here likes other marks as well.

IMO opinion they like other marks but leave the rotary powered FD on a pedastal that it can never be knocked from. Anyone who feels differently is labled as not being a true "rotary enthusiest" IMO.


** I have owned multiple different marks from domestics to turbo Porsches. They all have had their issues, (I had a 928 GTS that had a 7000.00 repair bill.) Just because someone defends the RX-7 doesn't mean they have on blinders. Some just like one mark/model better than others. Cheers [/B][/QUOTE]

I have a friend with a yard full of Porsches and the money he's spent on putting them back together would make an FD owner cry out in pain

No offense intended to your love of the RX-7; I love it too.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Damon,
Yes Porsche, Mercedes, et al do have long and more distinguished records in world racing series than Mazda does.

To be fair, Mazda's is very impressive too, particularly for a small company that other wise builds inexpensive little cars... and its not just based on finishing... its based on winning. I actually DO think the *one* LeMans overall says something... along with many IMSA, SCCA, and other victories. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevy, dodge, Cadilac and others have all spent big bucks and can't say it. To be fair also, you and I know full well that Mazda doesn't have the sort of lobby (or money) with racing rules makers that Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, or even Chevy have... so I think the few wins that have been squeaked in before being regulated out are worth acknowledging. If Mazda WERE allowed to run w/ their 13Bs classified as 1.3 litres, it wouldn't be less "fair" than BMW's M3 V8 cheater motor from a few years back. Let's get real.

As far as the reliability of the road cars, particularly the FD, if it had been three times the price (but with same performance), and from a German or Italian Marque, nobody'd be saying squat about it. Routine rebuilds, finicky running, etc. are par for the course on exotic and expensive machinery.. the only "fault" the FD has is that its Japanese, and cheap to buy, and therefor owned by folks without the resources to properly maintain it. A whole new motor is $3k installed... my well built one was just over $4k. You'd be lucky to get out of the Porsche or Ferrari dealership for that on a routine repair.... heck a new Supra motor is $17k. In porsche/Ferrari or even Viper terms, the 13B IS a wear item.

Sure, it won't match a chevy smallblock in this regard but what will? But i doubt anyone over on the Ferrari/Porsche boards are suffering from any complexes about their 911's getting beat at the autox course or the strip by a Z06... or the reliability of their 360 Modena in comparison. I'll bet they even think their cars are superior to it in spite of those things...

*still* not disagreeing that the FD RX7 won't be the greatest thing since sliced bread forever, and have felt the FD "sour grapes" (these cars are a form of mental illness) a few times just like you do... but honestly, I think we've got it better than you think...

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

Originally posted by DamonB

Not winning is called losing
**Yes...but Mazda rotaries won all the time.


Maybe because they have been around longer?
So what?
** I was pointing out those other marks had been around longer thus giving them a a longer history ?

Where's Mazda's dominance now? Heck, Mazda has not built a rotary engine in 10 years!

**Wrong, Mazda has continued to produce rotaries,they just haven't imported them here.

Why not put "superior" rotary power in everything they make?
**The same reason the Z06 motor isn't in the cavalier. It has a specific application. BTW: Superior?

Why go 10 years with no rotary when most enthusiests would say the rotary is the heart of Mazda?

**Because of emissions here in the U.S. wasn't cost effective.

IMO when you get down to it the rotary is a marketing tool.
**History has shown otherwise.

Fact is Mazda has not chosen to enter any upper tier big time racing in anything resembling recent history.

**Racing is done not only for R@D but also to push a product. They aren't racing here in the states because they haven't been selling the RX-7 here. They are racing in Japan and elsewhere.


Why not? One big handicap with the rotary is that to make power you get atrocious fuel mileage. That alone is a big problem in competition for rotaries.

**The 4 rotor 787 car was outlawed after the race and has been ever since.

The Renesis is not the clean sheet of paper design that many like to call it; it's certainly just a cousin to the 13B. Absolutelty there are other new cars with problems, I mention the RX-8 because the rotary crowd has been screaming until they are blue in the face that the new and improved rotary engine is here. "New" I can see, "improved" I have not seen yet. IMO there's no excuse for not engineering the most common rotary failure out of the engine: coolant seal failure.

**Why are you assuming it's coolant seal failure? The coolant seal failure was only a problem in the 3rd gen car and never in any others. This was due to the turbos/heat and this happened over an extended time period and higher milage.


No offense intended to your love of the RX-7; I love it too.

**Actually, I enjoy the car and don't hold it on a pedastal and never have. I believe the car should have never been released to the public until it was more reliable.

felix_is_alive

ouch ,the man has a point ,i love my rx7 to ,i wouldn`t trade it for anything today (hhmm exept pamela anderson) but nonetheless ,the man has a point
i guess we have all been there

DamonB

Well IMO that doesn't count. Continued building of a design and the continual research and improvement of a design are very different IMO. Heck, 1950's era Beetles were still built just as they always were up until this year. Was it because the Beetle was perfected? The rotary had no further development after the 13B-REW until the Renesis was created and even then I see it as incremental.

**Racing is done not only for R@D but also to push a product. They aren't racing here in the states because they haven't been selling the RX-7 here. They are racing in Japan and elsewhere.

Mazda has a huge motorsports identity here in the States. They are my friends at Mazdaspeed Motorsports who choose to support all us Mazda racers! (even if we are no good!) That for me is a big reason to run a Mazda: the factory enjoys helping me and the support is great. My insistance that Mazda has done nothing in the upper tiers of racing does not take away from the fact that the have a hugely successful amateur and privateer following.


**Why are you assuming it's coolant seal failure? The coolant seal failure was only a problem in the 3rd gen car and never in any others. This was due to the turbos/heat and this happened over an extended time period and higher milage.

RX-8 guys are reporting on the rx8club board that their engines are full of water in places other than the cooling passages. That to me means the coolant seals are failing because I can't believe Mazda intentionally designed the Renesis coolant seals to behave in such a manner as spilling coolant into the combustion chamber

DamonB

I don't disagree. But I don't feel anyone can say it "says something" at the automatic expense of Porsche, Ferrari, Audi, BMW, Chevy, Ferrari, Mercedes, Dodge etc who all have more than Mazda's single victory.


Agreed.

I disagree. I don't feel it unfair at all forcing Mazda to run a 13B as 2.6 liters; I explained why earlier.

That was a travesty and I completely disagree with the idea of allowing the v-8 M3's. That was not fair to any of that car's competitors.

I don't disagree with that either. People will pay to play so to speak, but we must admit Mazda doesn't have the panache of those other makes. That's a public perception; not a Mazda failure.

I don't disagree with that either. But for me that doesn't mean rotary longevity or superiority, that just means you can afford to put several motors into your FD because god know you will need them The ability to cheaply replace a failed motor is not an asset I would expect to see in any auto makers commercials


I have had my car a few years and race the **** out of it as often as I can because that is what I like to do with the car. Since I have owned it I have spent countless hours and dollars on just simple preparation to ensure a trusty car (IMO what most people call "reliability" mods don't mean jack), replaced the motor due to failure (first the coolant seals went but I saved that with block weld. 10K or so later the rear rotor lost a seal at 98K) and replaced many underhood components due to an engine fire caused by a fuel line rupture (yes, the car had the fuel recall performed previously). The engine I spent about $3K on, the fire almost $5K (insured though) and I'm afraid to add up my Mazdaspeed Motorsports invoices. For me labor is cheap because nobody pays me to do the all the work

Now I don't know many people who would put a brand new motor in a car and then watch it catch on fire (no negligence involved) some months later and yet put it back together and insist they still love the danged thing.

I've done that and I still love the danged thing

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DamonB
[B]Well IMO that doesn't count. Continued building of a design and the continual research and improvement of a design are very different IMO. Heck, 1950's era Beetles were still built just as they always were up until this year.

** ? Uhh, continued research go into improving a design. Improvements continually take place with all cars. look at the vette today vs 10 years ago.
Also, the beetle changed substantially over the years. Everything from hp (engine) transmissions, brakes, build quality even the looks.

The rotary had no further development after the 13B-REW until the Renesis was created and even then I see it as incremental.

**The rotary engine is continually being upgraded and changed. The seal configurations, port design etc. The renesis design was a huge step in rotary engine developement.

Mazda has a huge motorsports identity here in the States. They are my friends at Mazdaspeed Motorsports who choose to support all us Mazda racers! (even if we are no good!) That for me is a big reason to run a Mazda: the factory enjoys helping me and the support is great. My insistance that Mazda has done nothing in the upper tiers of racing does not take away from the fact that the have a hugely successful amateur and privateer following.

**Mazda has always supported the small guy as does other manufactures. That has nothing to do with campaigning a manufacturer race team. They also don't run a large tier race team because the 4 rotor is outlawed.


RX-8 guys are reporting on the rx8club board that their engines are full of water in places other than the cooling passages. That to me means the coolant seals are failing because I can't believe Mazda intentionally designed the Renesis coolant seals to behave in such a manner as spilling coolant into the combustion chamber

**I have seen a handful of guys complaining about water on the ground. Because a small number report water elsewhere doesn't make it so.

DamonB

How about guys who have reported Mazda replacing the engines because the coolant seals are failing? That not count? Go read up.


A huge step in ROTARY development, but IMO opinion not much in the scheme of things when compared to how far pistons have gotten since the first day Mazda built a rotary.