DCrosby

Sorry, but I'm skimming through these page long posts, but, has anybody mentioned that Mazda hasn't been allowed to race it's rotaries at LeMans ???
As I recall most people here were very upset and filled out some sort of petition to LeMan Racing Authority to Protest...

SPOautos

Actually, I was running very low 12's with intake, full exhaust, and a base map PFC with no additional tuning at 12.5psi of boost. This was for a grand total of about $2300.

BTW - In the same run that I ran a 12.3 I was running against a LT1 Z28 with full exhaust and a 100 shot....he ran a 12.4 and we both had the same tires and 60 foot time.

STEPHEN

SPOautos

Actually, my understanding is this isnt a coolant "seal" problem. There was supposedly a batch of housings that were machined wrong. The coolant seals themselves dont really just go bad unless someone does something to cause it like overheating. Overheating a engine will cause coolant issues in ANY car, you warp heads, blow head gaskets, ect ect ect. As a matter of fact my parents used to own a BMW 735iL in the early 90's that the head gasket went bad at 70K miles costing them roughly $5K....which did NOT include a new engine.

Sure the coolant seals will EVENTUALLY go out even if its never over heated, but on a n/a car its usually around the 200K mile mark.

STEPHEN

jimlab

Damon, I think ZeroBanger's AI programming is more elegant than your convoluted IF-THEN statement...

10 GET input
20 IF input = fact OR input = logic THEN PRINT "The 7 can't lose!!1!" ELSE PRINT "Don't like it? FA-Q!"
30 GOTO 10

DamonB

Do you not feel that a new engine which is leaking water and therefore requires engine replacement in an almost brand new car is a problem? Mazda (or us) can tell a customer all day long that " some housings were bad, it's a fluke, yadda, yadda, yadda" but here's what the customer knows: He knows his new car needs a new motor. I don't see any way possible to put a positive spin on that.

As for your parents BMW that lost a head gasket at 70K: I know nothing of that engine but I am sure at 70K it was no longer a nearly brand new motor like the RX-8 motors are. If a few RX-8's were dumping coolant on the floor at 70K I wouldn't worry, but that's not the case.

4rotors

Guys if I seem off in anyway I sorry it's late.

I think sometimes the rotary engine doesn't get a fair chance on this site. Lets get to the point, does it have problems, hell yeah!

But:

1. If every auto manufacture had one rotary in a vehicle today, think of how much better this engine would be. It's hard to believe that mazda would have a better rotary then another manufacture.

2. It seems that the 4 rotor in lemans, used a 3 spark plug set up to help with power and better fuel usage. Why isn't mazda using that set up, if it works use it.

3. Do people in other countries understand and love this engine more than we do.(Japan, australia ect.) I mean do they plow more engines than we do.

Piston engines have support all over the world. They have competition all over the world. And I guarantee if it doesn't keep getting support by all the crazy rotary fan's, it will never reach it's potential.

Remember Mazda is one company, with one unique engine.

4 rotors

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

I am not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water...If I recall correctly both the ZR1 and Z06 have had some serious engine problems when they came out. The ZR1 owners were told not to drive the car because a main bearing was failing. I believe the fix was to use synthetic oil.
The Z06 had an oil consumption problem. Chevrolet would monitor oil consumption and if it was excessive they would re-ring the engine. Would I buy a Z06? You bet, fantastic car. If Mazda had some bad housings that shows a quality control issue but I am sure they will rectify the problem just as Chevy and others have done. N/A rotaries have had an excellent reliability record unlike the 3rd gen.

DamonB

When I read that somehow I just come up with the point I made earlier: The rotary has not advanced in step with modern engine technology and thus has big shortcomings, especially in regards to longevity, fuel consumption and emissions.

4rotors

True enough, look at it this way. If all the auto out there had one aftermarket vendor( mustang, rx7, supra ect.) How far do you think, these cars would be in aftermarket parts. In away that's the problem with the rotary engine. Only mazda is trying to develope this technology.


4 rotors

DamonB

I agree with your points. Surely having many other manufacturers involved would bring more research, competition and advancement into rotary development. But we don't have that

In the real world what advantages do rotaries really have over piston motors? Better fuel mileage? No. Lower emissions levels? No (I think this alone will kill the rotary off within the next decade). More available power? No. Power to weight? Arguable.

I think the idea of only a few moving parts inside a rotary "cool", but is that really an advantage? History says no IMO. The rotary is also at a big disadvantage with regards to fuel mileage and emissions because there is no way to change port timing on the fly (like variable valve timing and lift in a piston motor).

I like the rotary for its uniqueness, but uniqueness will never stand on its own merit. Maybe we must admit the rotary is incapable of meeting modern performance goals? Trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear so to speak.

The single largest shortcoming of the rorary IMO is the poor combustion chamber shape and burn characteristics. An engine is a tool that burns fuel in order to make power. The rotary is fundamentally poorer than piston motors in that regard due to its combustion problems and that will hold true no matter what kind of fuel you choose to run inside the motor. Hydrogen for instance may have lower emissions, but you will still have lower efficiencies in power and mileage compared to a piston motor. You can't engineer that away as it is fundamental to the rotary engine.

Mr rx-7 tt

iTrader: (5)

Wrong,
It has advanced just like the other modern engines.
Longevity? The 3rd gen is the only rotary that lacks this.
Emissions? The 3rd gen wouldn't pass modern day stardards but the renessis does? HMM, It passed the latest stringent U.S. laws as well as California. I'd say it has progressed.

felix_is_alive

only dissadvantage i seem to agree with you is the mileage
if you compare any piston to a three rotor you`ll notice its pretty much on par ,it has similar torque and hp and in some cases even more
to me i believe the 2rotor is an incomplete engine missing 1 or 2 rotors , i am not shure what kind of mileage cam is getting out of the banzai but other then that i still think the 3 rotor can run with the pistons having gobs of power and torque
it also requires less stress to make this power then a 2 rotor thus less stress on the parts and giving it more durability
a 3 rotor should make 500hp fairly easy ,IMO thats decent even for a pistonhead

Keisuke T.

Anything pure and precious attracts dirt. That's right, you ever polish gold? That's what the scum that bash rotaries remind me of. I will not quote the numerous articles and tests that were written and performed by professionals. Instead I will simply say that I strongly feel that people who talk negatively about RX7 wish they had one, or had bad experiences with one due to whatever reason that was not the car's fault. You people should suck my asscheeks. You try sooo hard to justify yourself yet you cannot convince anyone here to stop loving RX7s. I can go on and on but what's the use.....SUCK MY LEFT NUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jimlab

My, aren't you a bright one...

MazdaRx7Racer4Life

You know, the FD might not be a SUPERcar, but it is definitely no regular sports car. It has always been my belief (and that of those that I have known) that within our price range, Japan has released three Cars that shouldn't be called sport, but high performance machines. The Supra, The Rx-7 and the 300zx. Each in its own way ruled and still rule the streets. It's true that you cannot compare a Ferrari to an FD because itd be like comparing an FD to a Honda, as for modded performance I think a cars potential is truly in the owners imagination. Ive seen a Civic with 600+ HP on slicks destroying Porsche's, the Civic being I car that i used to eat with my NA FC. Its all about how much money your willig to put into your car. If ANY car at all were trully better you think there'd be people out there with 600hp Hondas? They love their cars, if not everyone would own a Vette or a Viper. Stock for stock IS the only way you should compare cars, but an enthusiast is always going to love his car. no Matter what. And that's what we are, we're enthusiasts, we have the right to be proud, but not cocky.

SNracing

i agree. in the 90's Japan made great sports cars. the fd, supra, and 300z ruled the roads during this time. (im talking about cars that normal people can afford, not ferrari's and lambo's) in 93' the fd was known as the vette killer. im about ready for another round of imports that can compete with american muscle/sports cars. the new vettes are fast, and getting faster. the new mustangs are supposted to be getting quite a few more ponies stock. then you have vipers, which are on the end of the "affordable price range" for your average joe. (btw, vipers are uglier than ever!) mazda and nissan apperently are not ready to try and compete with the domestics, the rx8, 300z and g35 coupe (sorry excuse for new skyline) cannot hang with domestic sports cars, stock vs. stock. toyota doesnt even have a serious sports car out. hopefully their racing development will spawn something. the day one of these three make a car that will out perform domestics again, i will be the first in line to get one.

areXseven

iTrader: (1)

Man do I agree!!. What is trully remarkable and quite often ignored is that the FD, with a few relatively inexpensive Mods, can easily keep up with all the modern muscle cars, and do it with an engine that usually displaces less than 1/4th the size of its opponent. I bought my FD for under 10 grand, and as far as performance upgrades I installed a larger than stock exhaust system and an open intake system that has made it a strong competitor. My point being, when the Apples are compared, the FD will always be the winner in the "More Bang For The Buck" category.

Sure, you can always argue that a Z06 or a Vipor will kick "our" gludius maximus, ...but those pugilists are ignoring the fact that there are vehicles out there that will have no problem kickin theirs.!!

jimlab

Not to mention forced induction... or had you forgotten that turbos were required to make your rotary competitive?

As far as size, the 13B-REW isn't all that much smaller than an LS1, and it's been proven that it's not all that much lighter, either. The only place it's small is where its underrated displacement is concerned. Of course, if I cut my V8's displacment in half, the power per liter figure would look pretty damn impressive too...

You'll need more than exhaust and an intake to be competitive with a base model 400 horsepower C6 Corvette. The hurdle is constantly being raised.

Any 10+ year old car falls into the "bang for the buck" category when being compared to a new car. That's no special distinction, and personally, I think it's an excuse used by people trying to make themselves feel better about not having the bucks to buy more modern "bang".

Stock... why does everyone seem to assume that Z06 and Viper owners don't modify their cars too? And more importantly, they've usually got plenty of money to do so.

While I agree that there will always be a faster car somewhere, there aren't that many cars on the road that can beat a Z07 Corvette, not to mention a 427 TT, or a Viper Venom 650, not to mention an 800TT...

areXseven

iTrader: (1)

Last time I checked the 13B had an 80 cubic inch "block" (if you will) displacement. That, in it of it self, is a whole lot smaller than the famed LS1 block. Do the math.


I've seen your work and it's pretty damn good!. But I'd like to see you cut your V8's displacement in half and do a comparison,.. with numbers that could even come close to a STOCK 13B. ...... But realisticly speaking, you'd have a stock four banger that would be slower than your dailey beater.


I agree. But for about 1200 bengys in additional Mods, it can be done. (1/4 mile ET)


It's not a question about not necessarily having the monetary resoursces, but about having a little common sense that one does not need to spend 40-85K to be the owner of a vehicle that will produce the same type of excitement obtained in a lesser priced vehicle, as in the FD. (Hell, IF money wasn't an issue, WE would all be placing an order for an ENZO.)



Wrong. The list is plentiful. They might not live in your neck of the woods,... But AS YOU KNOW, They're out there.

DING DING...........

jimlab

Look at the dimensions and the weight... do the math.

Since displacement means more power potential, is it really a bragging point that Mazda only managed 80 cubic inches out of an engine nearly the size and weight of a 346 CID LS1? Now consider that you can increase the displacement of the LS1 to 454 cubic inches without increasing the size of the package. Still impressed by the rotary engine?

Cutting my displacement in half is as easy as using the method for calculating the displacement of a rotary engine... one rotation of the crankshaft = 3.25 liters.

Theatrics aside, if you all had money, you wouldn't be driving 10+ year old cars, no matter how well they performed.

Is that what you hear inside your head? I'd probably post utter horseshit too if I had to listen to bells ringing all the time...

rpm_pwr

not this **** again

jimlab

Same ****, different day.

DeepInTheGame

Ok, I haven't read all of these posts, so I don't know if someone has already mentioned this, but on Page 1 Jimlab mentioned an RX-7 would roughly cost 44K today with inflation and a Z06 is only a few thousand more. But the way I look at it is that there is so much more technology today, that a part that would cost $500 in '92 might cost $200 today to produce. Therefore, a Z06 can have better, more efficient parts at a cheaper rate than a car built 10 years ago. And the parts that we use today to beat modified Z06's involve today's technology trying to improve on a bunch of decade old imperfections in our TT rotary motor. The same can be said about cars today and cars in the 30's, where a V8 produced **** for power just because they didn't know what we do now. Same thing can be said with computers, a computer in 1993 with 1/20 the processing speed, 1/100 of the harddrive space, and 1/10 video card capabilities as one made today would have cost you $5,000, whereas today you can pick one up for $600. I don't really know if this is gonna make sense to anybody, or if I'll get flamed for it, but technology really does make a huge difference, and the question is not whether I'm right or wrong about that, but do the advantages of technological advances outweigh the inflation prices.

wingsfan

I agree with you on most points Jim, but the engine itself is nowhere near the same size or weight.



It's all of the forced induction crap taking up so much room and weight in the engine bay that makes the swap feasible.

Of course, now that I've linked that photo some nitwit will start up with the "well if you had a 5.7L rotary" crap

areXseven

iTrader: (1)

I see. You type before you think. An 80 CID engine is less than 1/4th the size of 346 CID engine. DO THE MATH.


Yeah, that sounds pretty nice and dandy, an YOU really have a way of making YOURSELF sound intellectually superior to most of us.,...BUT, can you actually build a motor with half of the displacement/CID found in your LS1, to meet or exceed the HP a 13B engine harbors.??? YES or NO.

It's a matter of personal preference. But please post photos of your Z07 when you get it.... Or,.. is it a brand spanking new Viper???


IWell it's nice to know that you like to reply to posts containing "horse poo-poo". Just like a fly, you just can't stay away from it,.. huh Jimbo???

DING DING.....