t-von

iTrader: (8)

^Great post David and thx! You know I knew nothing of a 20b until I read that Sport Compact article. That article sold me on the conversion until I saw how much it was. I knew right then that the only way I was gonna have such a beast was to buid it myself. I cant believe that article is 16yrs old.

93rx74lyfe

iTrader: (1)

That article has me wanting a 3-rotor BAD!! David, your the man!

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Great choice as a replacement Agreed, the most important aspect is to spend more time enjoying it rather than working on it.

Edit- I remember that article. In fact I think I still have it somewhere lol. Good stuff!

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

What this forum needs is a list of all the necessary parts in detail, every nut and bolt, showing a realistic representation of what it takes labor/parts/cost/budget wise to build a 20b.

But, in the meantime, the engine has arrived, hes been sent off and returned rebuilt

You complain that no one has documented an exact 20B swap list for you to follow, but you send off the motor to be rebuilt that has 4 moving parts and is precisely documented by Mazda down to the smallest detail/specification/part # ?

I guess I really am an elitist.

When my friends ask me about buying an FD and "building" it or buying a "built" FD the advise I give them is-

its a good idea if you are willing to learn to rebuild rotaries. If not, you will pay a lot of money and still probably end up doing the hard part which is pulling the engine and stripping everything/putting it back on.

BTW, if anyone of them were remotely interested in a near stock FD I would just say-
buy a decently low mile good running example and have fun, but no one wants a stock FD.

If they love the FD and don't care about rotaries I preach to them the benefits of the well documented LS V8 swap.

And that's the kind of mentally which will continue to de-value this car (and the rotary motor in general), allow "kids" to continue to buy and crash them, and have those who maybe would come and contribute to the community have no desire to... However, it's your community so shape it however you want...

In my view it is exactly the opposite.

I am telling people if they want to buy and mod an FD they might as well save a bunch of money by buying one of the countless blown engine ones and learn to rebuild the engine first.

I help my friends rebuild their rotaries by advising and strictly supervising, but I make them do 99% of the work.

I apologize for this off topic post and it is not out of lack of respect for above posters that I say what I do. Its just my viewpoint and you have your own viewpoint and priorities.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

^ I think there are alot of people who want to learn about rotarys but most just dont have the basic automotive knowledge, tools, live in apartments so no a garage, ect. We builders kind of take these basic things for granted because its what we've been doing for so long. I mean, I'm about to loose my shop in less than 30days and I have no other way to build anything until I get my workshop put up. I feel lost and helpless now!!!

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

^ Trey's got it. I'd think a larger percentage of guys on the forum don't have the ability/knowledge/desire to do their own mods. Hat's off to those that do it as they then are on control of their own destiny so to speak.

For the rest of us, it's left up to the rotary shops and you first have to find a good one as those are few and far between. Trust me on this, as I've had my car at more shops than most. Find a good one (and I have three, Kilo in Orlando, Steve Osley in Asheville and Rotorsports in Charlotte) and stick with them. They are like gold. For cutting edge 3 rotor stuff, there is no better than Defined Autoworks. Logan is an artist.

As large problem with 3 rotor builds is there are not many shops experienced nor knowledgeable in doing the conversion. I can count on one hand those that are good and to which I would sent my car. You have to have done the conversion more than a few times to be qualified to do the build IMO. I've wasted more time and money on shops that really don't have the expertise and these are some of the larger names in the business. I'd say about 70% of the time and money spent on my car was wasted due to the lack of ability of the supposed expert shop working on the car.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

We builders kind of take these basic things for granted because its what we've been doing for so long.

We don't take it for granted, we just have different priorities.

No one takes their rent or mortgage payment for shop space, the cost of tools and the hours spent wrenching instead of playing with friends or making money for granted.

I'm all for the people that have the money to pay a shop to build their car as it allows people who love to modify/work on cars to make a living by it. Pretty awesome!

I don't mean to discriminate against certain enthusiasts, just pointing out what appears to me as a contradiction-

someone being able to follow a step by step 20B conversion and all its complexity, but not willing to build a very simple extremely well documented motor.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i always say if i can do it, anyone can. i've done a few 20B swaps, i've done a P port, i'm about to do another P port and a giant bridge (you could fit your leg in there), in addition to some completely stock cars.

i have had shop space, but most are built in the driveway.

Monsterbox

iTrader: (6)

My point is that the automatic answer to those questioning the 20b conversion is somewhere along the lines "if you don't have 30k-50k laying around don't attempt it" or "if you don't know what your getting into don't attempt it"

Obviously, I'm paraphrasing here.

I was discouraged by all the complaints, issues, etc that I had read about on this forum and decided against it a few years ago for a single-turbo upgrade instead. After having demystified the 20b swap, I've found that its really not that much of a big deal compared to any other engine swap.

Swapping an LS1 into an FD. An RB20 into a 240sx. A 13brew into a FB. If you have the capacity to do this, then you should easily be able to swap a 20b.

I'm not complaining, I'm simply suggesting that there many ways to help encourage the 20b swap. An easy one, starting a thread showing all the necessary parts to get running.

There's so much debate about ECU's, subframes, sterring rack relocations, wiring, coils that its difficult to sort through all this mess and find the reasonable solution. There is a lot of budgeting work required as not many people have documented a start to finish conversion on their own. Hopefully I can help to assist in this matter.



Lastly, I don't understand what your post about building the engine has to do with the motor swap. I chose to have a reputable shop build the motor as this will help to solidify the resell potential on a rare motor. In addition to compression numbers, it seems reasonable to assume that the market cares a great deal about who built the motor and the reputation of that company. If I choose the sell my car, I can easily show all of my motor swap work, wiring, dyno charts, etc however I cannot prove how well I built the engine. I do not have a track record at building rotaries and its not my intention to do so. Quality assurance and a warranty on a rebuild helps to maintain value and minimize risk.


Furthermore, I'd like to clarify, once again, that I am not hating on anyone who has paid a shop to perform a full swap. If one has the money to pay a shop, go ahead. Many times the opportunity cost of doing the swap themselves could easily outweigh the amount of income they could be making at their career/investments. However in reference to the DIY, cost break downs and pages upon pages of shop experiences does not help anyone to swap their own 20b. If you hadn't noticed, my whole argument is the encouragement of the DIY. Yes, it helps someone looking to drop 50k to a shop. But the DIY is still left wondering and researching.

My goal is simply to help people quantify the risks, budget a build, and be able to confidently pull the trigger on their own swap, knowing that there is support/outline to be followed.

Once again, Banzai's threads have helped tremendously. Detailed write-ups, pictures, step-by-steps, and a sucessfully running swap. No drame, not 10000 pages to sort through. <<<<<<<<<<<SIMPLY LOOKING FOR MORE OF THIS.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i won't speak for everyone, but when i did my 20B swap in 2002, i was about the 8th person to attempt it. i did as much research as i could, but that only went so far.

the rest i had to figure out, which is part of why it was fun, and a project.

for the money i spent way less than 30K, although i didn't open the engine, and i reused the stock turbos and stuff. it is very easy to see how you could get to 30k if you open the engine, and pick a big shiny turbo, and have a shop do all of the labor

it is much easier to tell people its too expensive, than it is to tell people they need to be more proactive about problem solving, and they need to be able to figure this out on their own.

the P port was the same way, for every 20 "zomg it idles @10,000rpm" posts there was one guy who would daily drive it. it turns out that the "zomg" people have never seen a P port.