Anyone ever just deicided to go 13b NA on their FD.
07-17-14, 12:46 PM
#51
I'm not going down this road again, best of luck to you NA guys.
07-17-14, 12:49 PM
#52
If this were the fb or fc section then yes because you have NA versions already that you can improve on. I dont think anyone who drives a turbo fc would ever remove that engine to install a NA 6 port in it's place
The 2nd gen makes a lot of sense even if its a TII because there is this thing called racing. There are more classes for an NA 2nd gen than turbo plus the chassis is happiest under 300rwhp as its rather primitive and wheel/tire limited.
In my area, a local guy pulled the 6 cyl out of his 300zx for a 4cyl SR20. According to him, this will save a "ton of weight and increase reliability". This thread is equally retarded.
If you going to go N/A build a 3 rotor or a 4 rotor. Otherwise, keep what Mazda intended in your car. There's years upon years of information in this forum to make your car reliable.
No, the SR20 Z could make sense if he is racing. The SR has more development/parts, *could* handle better and could class lower in racing.
I have a dyno shop owner friend with a built VG35 Z31 and the engine can make torque, but it can't rev and it can't race as he can't get oil/coolant temps under control.
As far as NA 2 rotor FD- again, racing.
If it allows you to run in a class where you will be more competitive it is a good idea.
Would you rather race an RX-3 in SCCA GT3 class or an FD RX-7 with the same bridgeport 12A at the same minimum weight?
The 2nd gen makes a lot of sense even if its a TII because there is this thing called racing. There are more classes for an NA 2nd gen than turbo plus the chassis is happiest under 300rwhp as its rather primitive and wheel/tire limited.
In my area, a local guy pulled the 6 cyl out of his 300zx for a 4cyl SR20. According to him, this will save a "ton of weight and increase reliability". This thread is equally retarded.
If you going to go N/A build a 3 rotor or a 4 rotor. Otherwise, keep what Mazda intended in your car. There's years upon years of information in this forum to make your car reliable.
No, the SR20 Z could make sense if he is racing. The SR has more development/parts, *could* handle better and could class lower in racing.
I have a dyno shop owner friend with a built VG35 Z31 and the engine can make torque, but it can't rev and it can't race as he can't get oil/coolant temps under control.
As far as NA 2 rotor FD- again, racing.
If it allows you to run in a class where you will be more competitive it is a good idea.
Would you rather race an RX-3 in SCCA GT3 class or an FD RX-7 with the same bridgeport 12A at the same minimum weight?
07-17-14, 01:24 PM
#54
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i moved cars around today, so i just drove a 280ps spec FD (engine/trans/turbos/ecu) back to back with a P port 12A 1st gen.
i like the FD, its quiet, smooth and fast, the extra 30hp is totally noticeable.
the P port is much more immediate, it revs faster, throttle response is instant. it is huge fun. it also idles @900rpm, makes peak power @5500 (with the stock 12A air cleaner, another 50hp with something better), gets better gas mileage than a 6 port 13B, was cheap to build and uses almost no fancy parts.
in short the P port is just better.
i like the FD, its quiet, smooth and fast, the extra 30hp is totally noticeable.
the P port is much more immediate, it revs faster, throttle response is instant. it is huge fun. it also idles @900rpm, makes peak power @5500 (with the stock 12A air cleaner, another 50hp with something better), gets better gas mileage than a 6 port 13B, was cheap to build and uses almost no fancy parts.
in short the P port is just better.
07-17-14, 01:34 PM
#55
My turbo rotary made it 64k miles before I opted to pull the perfectly healthy engine and turbos. Barring no coolant seal failure it would have easily gone over 100k miles making around 300rwhp. Car was down for a whole 2 weeks pulling, porting, building and reinstalling the engine.
Well the early S1 Renesis is that one shamefull exception.
Lastly the reliabilty on custom built projects is based on the "builders" skill level and knowledge and not the engine itself.
07-17-14, 01:36 PM
#56
You went down that road when you posted negatively on a thread you have zero interest in. This is the equivalent of hating on a actor like Jim Carry and then complaining about his next movie you paid and went to see.
07-17-14, 01:39 PM
#57
Q
In the grand scheme of things, do you really think thats impressive long term reliability? NA fb and fc last for 200k + all day every day. Where do you think the rotary got its reputation of reliabilty from? It damn sure wasnt from the fds history. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
Stop taking things personal by the way.
Lastly the reliabilty on custom built projects is based on the "builders" skill level and knowledge and not the engine itself.
You make it too easy.
07-17-14, 01:42 PM
#58
i moved cars around today, so i just drove a 280ps spec FD (engine/trans/turbos/ecu) back to back with a P port 12A 1st gen.
i like the FD, its quiet, smooth and fast, the extra 30hp is totally noticeable.
the P port is much more immediate, it revs faster, throttle response is instant. it is huge fun. it also idles @900rpm, makes peak power @5500 (with the stock 12A air cleaner, another 50hp with something better), gets better gas mileage than a 6 port 13B, was cheap to build and uses almost no fancy parts.
in short the P port is just better.
i like the FD, its quiet, smooth and fast, the extra 30hp is totally noticeable.
the P port is much more immediate, it revs faster, throttle response is instant. it is huge fun. it also idles @900rpm, makes peak power @5500 (with the stock 12A air cleaner, another 50hp with something better), gets better gas mileage than a 6 port 13B, was cheap to build and uses almost no fancy parts.
in short the P port is just better.
Secondly, my ported FD idles at 850 all day long, around 900 with the Ice cold AC blowing on a 95 degree day.
Thirdly, you are telling me a NA PPort 12A has better throttle response and revs faster than a properly running sequential 13B-Rew? I have very little experience with NA rotaries but man I find that hard to swallow.
07-17-14, 01:46 PM
#61
Unfortunately work never takes me down that way. I cant believe someone hasnt jumped all over that car. Has to be a blast to drive a sequential 13B-REW FB. Would be interesting to see a dyno chart from that car and compare to the PP 12A that is now mentioned in this thread.
07-17-14, 01:51 PM
#64
If this were the fb or fc section then yes because you have NA versions already that you can improve on. I dont think anyone who drives a turbo fc would ever remove that engine to install a NA 6 port in it's place
The 2nd gen makes a lot of sense even if its a TII because there is this thing called racing. There are more classes for an NA 2nd gen than turbo plus the chassis is happiest under 300rwhp as its rather primitive and wheel/tire limited.
In my area, a local guy pulled the 6 cyl out of his 300zx for a 4cyl SR20. According to him, this will save a "ton of weight and increase reliability". This thread is equally retarded.
If you going to go N/A build a 3 rotor or a 4 rotor. Otherwise, keep what Mazda intended in your car. There's years upon years of information in this forum to make your car reliable.
No, the SR20 Z could make sense if he is racing. The SR has more development/parts, *could* handle better and could class lower in racing.
I have a dyno shop owner friend with a built VG35 Z31 and the engine can make torque, but it can't rev and it can't race as he can't get oil/coolant temps under control.
As far as NA 2 rotor FD- again, racing.
If it allows you to run in a class where you will be more competitive it is a good idea.
Would you rather race an RX-3 in SCCA GT3 class or an FD RX-7 with the same bridgeport 12A at the same minimum weight?
The 2nd gen makes a lot of sense even if its a TII because there is this thing called racing. There are more classes for an NA 2nd gen than turbo plus the chassis is happiest under 300rwhp as its rather primitive and wheel/tire limited.
In my area, a local guy pulled the 6 cyl out of his 300zx for a 4cyl SR20. According to him, this will save a "ton of weight and increase reliability". This thread is equally retarded.
If you going to go N/A build a 3 rotor or a 4 rotor. Otherwise, keep what Mazda intended in your car. There's years upon years of information in this forum to make your car reliable.
No, the SR20 Z could make sense if he is racing. The SR has more development/parts, *could* handle better and could class lower in racing.
I have a dyno shop owner friend with a built VG35 Z31 and the engine can make torque, but it can't rev and it can't race as he can't get oil/coolant temps under control.
As far as NA 2 rotor FD- again, racing.
If it allows you to run in a class where you will be more competitive it is a good idea.
Would you rather race an RX-3 in SCCA GT3 class or an FD RX-7 with the same bridgeport 12A at the same minimum weight?
This guy doesn't track race. He just wants a reason to sound like he's doing something smart for reliability and less weight. Lets look at statistics, who the heck chooses a 300zx + SR platform in reality? Its just as senseless as buying an FD and removing the turbos
Regarding the SR20, why not just buy a 240 shell and swap an SR20 if the concern is weight. Its sooo much effort to do a motor swap for LESS hp. Spending all that money, time, and knuckle busting for hardly any result. That effort could be spent on better oil coolers/radiators/twin-turbos etc...
07-17-14, 01:55 PM
#65
The same thing it taught all the early fd builders who blew engines in their quest for more power. The beneficiaries are guys like you who get to sit back and watch all the carnage and learn other ways to go about it and not lose as much money. You learn what you learn from others mistakes. Someone had to be brave enough to stick a nozzle in the intake and spray water down the engine while it was boosting right? Someone has to be the sacrificial lamb right? You know exactly what I've been trying to do with my project so you know that I have ZERO usfull info out there to help me with this. All I have is my will, and faith. It just sucks that we early adapters of NA 20B tech dont get the support of rotar heads in general. That's a downer.
07-17-14, 01:56 PM
#66
Unfortunately work never takes me down that way. I cant believe someone hasnt jumped all over that car. Has to be a blast to drive a sequential 13B-REW FB. Would be interesting to see a dyno chart from that car and compare to the PP 12A that is now mentioned in this thread.
Driving the car actually makes me laugh out loud. It has a nice silent old school FB racing beat exhaust. The motor is mounted to the old school trans with super short gearing and 13in tires.
At first glance, everyone thinks you're cruising around in a dinky NA 13b/12a. Then they hear the hilarious whoosh of the primary turbo kick in and the tires instantly light up no matter the gear. You can blast hills in 5th all day. THE MOST FUN CAR EVER.
And for all the 13b NA lovers....sorry but you aren't going to blast up a hill in 5th without a primary turbo. That's why we swapped engines
FB + TURBO Rew = Smiles. Exactly the opposite of this thread. Everyone is welcome to take a ride and tell me that it should be De-tuned.
07-17-14, 01:58 PM
#67
Not being a smart ***, what information where you needing you couldn't find? I'm not sure there are many secrets left. Most of the top HP guys are surprisingly willing to share info if that is what you are after. The road race/autox formula seems to be sorted out as well, smallish turbo, race fuel/e85 and high boost. Most knowledgeable shops dont share info on the forums because of the drama that gets stirred up and they get questioned/harrassed by guys who have built 1-2 rotaries when these guys have built hundreds with proven track records of racing/winning.
07-17-14, 02:00 PM
#68
The same thing it taught all the early fd builders who blew engines in their quest for more power. The beneficiaries are guys like you who get to sit back and watch all the carnage and learn other ways to go about it and not lose as much money. You learn what you learn from others mistakes. Someone had to be brave enough to stick a nozzle in the intake and spray water down the engine while it was boosting right? Someone has to be the sacrificial lamb right? It just sucks that we early adapters of NA 20B tech dont get the support of rotar heads in general. That's a downer.
07-17-14, 02:09 PM
#69
Strictly speaking around the 20B swap (FD3S) which is one of the reasons why there are so many failed rather than successful projects. You can likely dig, to found answers on many of the nuances of the swap, but it's scattered and not easy to know the correct from the incorrect without going through some trial an error. I've seen other car forums which are more more open with sharing in general.
07-17-14, 02:46 PM
#71
I haven't seen just a basic guide of "Here how you put a NA 20B in your FD" guide around anywhere. I'm not suggesting the information isn't around, but again it's scattered through bits and pieces of crap that individuals have to sift through. You being familiar with the swap, likely have an easier time knowing the good from the bad.IMO, there would be more "successful" swaps with proper information available.
07-17-14, 03:13 PM
#72
^ Well I think one of the main reasons why you may not see that type of thread anytime soon is because of how many variations you can build an NA setup. With a 20B turbo setup, yeah it's pretty universal for what you've seen on a forum throughout the years but na is a totally different animal. There is a ton of science involved with header lengths, intake runner lengths, and where you want the power band to fall. Then there is the noise factor. If you build someone's basic setup, then at some point that setup may not be what you want and you're going to change some things. Once you go full on na intake, you're pretty much stuck with what you have unless you completely reengineer the entire setup hence why Gordon had Logan go through so many different designs and spent so much money. With a turbo, its so much easier just to install a bigger intercooler, larger turbo, and crank up the boost to get more power. Plus you have the benefit of low boost and high boot settings. Traditionally, that's one thing that ain't happenin with an NA unless you run nitrious. The intake design that I engineerd hopefully could be a one-size-fits-all solution but we'll see
07-17-14, 03:32 PM
#73
Strictly speaking around the 20B swap (FD3S) which is one of the reasons why there are so many failed rather than successful projects. You can likely dig, to found answers on many of the nuances of the swap, but it's scattered and not easy to know the correct from the incorrect without going through some trial an error. I've seen other car forums which are more more open with sharing in general.
Most of the 20b swaps around here (turbo and NA) do not mention the details as alot of the owners have had a shop do the conversion. Alot of these 20b threads rant on and on about shops, labor, prices rather than the nitty gritty details and info is spewed all over the place.
One of the most helpful guys to me so far has been Banzai Racing. He's helped me to seperate the BS and get down to the facts.
Theres so many Little things like which size fittings, shimming the crank wheel for FD water pump, interchangability of TPS etc that add up.
So far, it doesn't appear that there is anything one thing that is hard about this swap, its just you must have every single little part. Waiting/ordering/budgeting is difficult if you have not pre-planned every nut and bolt.
Hopefully, if this works out as planned, I may be able to assist in a general write-up of how to do a dramaless 20b swap in under 10 years.
However, I'm certainly not going to speak to soon.
07-17-14, 03:36 PM
#74
He is who I would recommend as I have very little knowledge on the 20B swaps. Banzai built their 20B car, made impressive HP numbers and the engine bay looks like a show car yet runs fine. No crazy drama, or him tearing the car apart 10 times. I check in on his thread every so often because it is really impressive.
07-17-14, 04:25 PM
#75
I will admitt! After going through all the hoopla of my personal project, building a basic 20b turbo setup with a genetic aftermarket subframe would be a piece of cake. Once you've completed the 1st build, the following ones are easy. It's that initial learning curve that sucks.