HDP

iTrader: (2)

It has been confirmed, these intercoolers are NOT made in China, they are made right here in the good ol' USA. Georgia to be exact.

ehos

Yes. For example...

http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...m=56-48Z0-F111

That's an OEM strut bar for over $700. You can buy virtually the same exact part for as little as $70.

No one owes anyone a 'debt of gratitude.' That's great there is a $1500 IC out there, but just like over priced strut bars, there are similar cheaper alternatives.

Some people are happy to pay $700 for a strut bar (or $1500 for an IC), others are happy with the $70 strut bar (or $99 IC).

Kevin T. Wyum

Based on this thread of yours I don't think there's much point trying to debate any of this with you ehos.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...7&page=1&pp=30

lexidic

I gota say here that this is just spectacular, I was gona spend a G on name brand IC but now that this smic kit with pipes is available for under 200, **** im gona buy 4 of em and save myself 200$! that way if one gets too hot i will have 3 backups on ice i can swap in at a moments notice seriously tho, im buyin unless i see some hard data that says it is actualy worse than the stocker heat wise... at least it wont pop like the stock one will !!!!!! thats worth 200 in my book.....

Oh yea, and anybody who realy wants to bash a product ehem dont need to mention names.... Y not bash those "straps" they make for the stock IC to keep it from exploding that cost 115$$$$

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Once again, you can't compare OEM to copies. Hell, the OEM IC cost as much as Kevin's IC and there is obviously a performance difference. OEM bolts to hold the calipers are about $8 a piece. You can get a set of 12 for a little more from McMaster-Carr.

Someone will always be able to sell something cheaper if they are just "copying" something else. All the thought and work in creating it (R&D costs) have already been done for them.

However, have you ever use a photo copier? You ever notice that the copy is never as good as the original?

In some case, replicas or copies are nice. Something like a strut bar is a no brainer. However, these IC's are honest built like crap. Does that mean they are worthless? Not necessarily. Just don't expect $1000 performance from a $200 part.

HDP

iTrader: (2)

I still can't figure this out, why does everyone say these are built like crap and have never seen one in person? Have you actually seen one (not from pics or word of mouth) to make a judgment like that?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

So let me get this straight; you don't think that's an XS Power IC that Kevin took pictures of?

HDP

iTrader: (2)

You didn't answer my question... but to answer yours, yes it is, but it's not the quality of the one I received. What makes you think there would be no defective units produced? If you will read back, everyone that has one stated the quality of their is much better than the one pictured.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I've never been to the moon but I can tell you what color the surface is.... Why? Someone who has been there sent pictures back.

That also bring up another point. If Kevin got "a bad one", how can anyone be assured that they will get a good one?

Kevin has posted pictures of his, someone else needs to post similar pictures to show "a good one".

HDP

iTrader: (2)

And I've read the book on rocket science (it had pictures too) doesn't mean I can view it as Wernher Von Braun did...



Sorry, but that is a very weak reason. Just as you said, this company doesn't have the mean to provide the R&D, so what makes you think the QC (if they even have a QC department) would be up to par? More than likely, as someone else put it, these intercoolers are going to be "hit or miss". For $200, that's a risk one would take. Fortunately, the one I purchased (as well as others) have all been hits, on the other hand the one pictured is a miss although it was a miss even before it was purchased.


Why? What good will it do to post pics of my intercooler (BTW, I already have)? I'm not trying to defend this intercooler, I'm just trying to get fools to stop ridiculing me for not being financially well-off as they feel one who owns an RX-7 should be (even though my base is over $33k) and for making a decision that best suits my needs.

sonix7

Ask and you shall receive, I want to say that I have no hand in saying that anything is better or worse. They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, so here is my essay. I would like to point out that on the weld points all I see is pits from polishing, which I could be wrong but my trusty friends in Gator country (cantgostraight- Jack) might be able to shed some light on that. Other than that my IC is extremely dirty with smudges all over it and that is the only problem I can see. Now for fun I would love to the same points documented on the ASP core. You know for comparison Have fun.

sonix7

more

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Who is ridiculing you? No one. The simple fact is that anyone who really wants/needs the absolute best performance for their car is going to pay for the best (i.e. saving to get what they need rather than what they can afford right now). Kevin was just saying that most people who don't need the "absolute best" would never realize the extra benefit of a "better product" anyway in that situation.

Very simplistic example, but just to prove a point: If the XS SMIC can get you a 1/4 time of 12.5 and Kevins IC can get you 12.1, is the price of Kevin's IC worth the .4 for you? Or, if you never drag race for competition would you ever know you were losing that extra .4 potential?

That's all he's saying. He's saying that the people that don't care about that .4 aren't his target market in the first place. However, if you read Kevin's messages, he also said that if the XS core was "good", he could use a similar core and substantially cut his costs. But, that will take some testing/time to prove or disprove the efficiency of the design.

rynberg

Really? Confirmed how?

California Dreaming

Can't everyone see this thread is really going no where? 28 pages of the same thing. Everyone here is just too stubborn to ever come to an agreement here.

ehos

Can you prove that the $1500 IC gives a .4 increase? No, it's like you said 'POTENTIAL.' For me I don't want to spend the extra $1400 on a potential increase when it's clear to me the $99 alternative is just as good.

Think of it like this, what would you rather have, a $1500 IC, or a $99 IC and $1400 of other mods??

Let's see, you could buy a PFC ($700), Midpipe/downpipe, RB Catback, Duct/Pulleys or a single solitary $1500 IC. Hmmmm.

See, most of us don't want to jump out and buy a $1500 IC first thing. Maybe our stock intercooler just needs an upgrade, and maybe we'll come back and buy a nicer IC as we need.

One thing is for sure. After reading Kevins' posts and his xenophobia, I would never buy his $1500 IC. Way to scare off any potential buyers with your posts. And yes, I can afford your IC, just as I can afford my FD.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

You just said exactly what I said (which is what Kevin originally wrote).

primerGrey

iTrader: (13)

I think you have inadvertently proven my point. How is it possible that the larger IC performs more like the medium IC as the air speed increases(!), if the airflow is unrestricted by the duct? Heat transfer through an intercooler is proportional to the mass flow (See equation 2 at this link: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html). If the flow wasn't restricted by the duct, the larger IC would continue to perform proportionally better at larger speeds. Instead, you report that the medium and large converge at larger flows. This indicates that the duct is throttling the flow into the ICs. Face it, the SMIC design is just fundamentally limited, because it uses the same intake area as the stock duct! So again, why pay $1500 bucks trying to polish a turd, when you can pay only $200?

Ahh. Should the test demonstrate some difficulties with the ASP IC, the quality of the test is called into question. More of that "good" sort of bias, I guess.

I have a technical degree in fluid mechanics and heat transfer. But your right in a way, NOBODY truly understands how heat transfer works. Turbulence is one of the great unsolved problems of physics, and it has a lot to do with heat transfer. However, I would hazard that my technical degree is probably a much better starting point than this gobbledygook. I love the idea that you propose to use a water test for an IC designed to be used with air. Think there might be some reason airplanes are tested in wind tunnels, and submarines in flow chambers, and not vice-versa?

I did do some frontal area measurements:
Cross sectional of stock duct intake = 13 square inches
Cross sectional of area available for flow in XSPPOWER IC = 64 square inches

I don't have an ASP medium, but it is probably about the same as the XSPOWER. I leave it to readers to decide for themselves whether they can feed air to 64 square inches of exit, using only 13 square inches of intake, without seeing some performance decrease.
The idea that a newbie like me is actually some evil-doer returned from the dead is sufficiently amusing that I don't wish to discourage it. The idea that your admitted bias isn't going to be a problem is also amusing, but should be discouraged. From the dictionary:
bias = A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment

Worth contemplating as the XSPOWER inquisition proceeds...

Kevin T. Wyum

This is getting pretty funny. It's like a mess of people trying to argue that Casio is just as good as a Rolex. Actually it would be more accurate to say people trying to argue that Rolex fakes make in SE Asia are just as good as the real thing. Prove it's not yadda yadda. There is no point to this. I'll post more results as I have time to test things.

Sonic, they apparently changed these recently. They now have a cast end tank, so you got a better unit with respect to end tank interior volume, weight etc. It also appears the welding quality has changed. Also pits don't ever come from polishing, it happens during welding.

Kevin T. Wyum

"I think you have inadvertently proven my point. How is it possible that the larger IC performs more like the medium IC as the air speed increases(!), if the airflow is unrestricted by the duct? Heat transfer through an intercooler is proportional to the mass flow (See equation 2 at this link: http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html). If the flow wasn't restricted by the duct, the larger IC would continue to perform proportionally better at larger speeds. Instead, you report that the medium and large converge at larger flows. This indicates that the duct is throttling the flow into the ICs. Face it, the SMIC design is just fundamentally limited, because it uses the same intake area as the stock duct! So again, why pay $1500 bucks trying to polish a turd, when you can pay only $200?"

Want to know a little secret? The efficiency numbers are for the core assemblies outside of a car with no duct at all. . Cough cough. So what does that indicate again hahha.

"I love the idea that you propose to use a water test for an IC designed to be used with air. Think there might be some reason airplanes are tested in wind tunnels, and submarines in flow chambers, and not vice-versa?"

My goodness you just aren't getting any of this are you? The water will be on the outside, as in a tank of water. The IC will be placed inside the tank and pressurized with air to see if core has leaks in the brazing between layers indicated by little bubbles. You know, like the guys at the tire repair shop looking for a leak in a tire? Maybe you should contact the tire repair place for a degree.

ROFLMAO, I really believe that degree given what you've posted in all of this.


"Cross sectional of stock duct intake = 13 square inches" I just measured one of my ducts. It's 11 3/4" x 2" at its smallest point, 23.5 square inches is the real number. More importantly it's at ambient air temp of 70 or whatever with substantial pressure differential, which is what causes air flow to begin with.

"Cross sectional of area available for flow in XSPPOWER IC = 64 square inches": at 200 odd degrees ambient engine bay temp at essentially 0 pressure differential, meaning there will be no flow across the core no matter the cross section, meaning near 0% efficiency outside of that of simple radiant cooling. A stock IC would cool better I'm sorry to say. No duct means basically no cooling at all.

"technical degree in fluid mechanics and heat transfer"

I'd love to hear where that came from.

ehos

Almost as funny as someone trying to disprove that a Casio can tell time.

Just because the IC you sell is $1500 doesn't mean it's worth that much money. The law of diminishing returns says the return of your $1500 IC can't be as effective as the $99 XS IC.

Both IC's cool air (your watch analogy, ie they both tell time), but does your IC cool air SOOOOoo much better that it's worth the extra $1400? The onus of proof isn't on the XS IC. It's on your $1500 IC.

YOU have to disprove that the $99 IC isn't worth it to my biased eyes.

Some people need the bling bling of a Rolex, others can do with a Casio.

Kevin T. Wyum

Are you kidding? Mine's been around for almost 10 years in various forms with loads of test data from various independent sources. Why in the world would I be responsible for proving the performance of some cheap copy? You need to rethink that. XS would be the one responsible to prove how good their product is. You don't start from the assumption that a product is ideal and demand every other manufacturer to prove otherwise. Keep in mind these are the same people that glued turbo compressor housings together. Did they do that in Georgia too?

BTW where does this $99 figure keep coming from? I had to pay over $200 for it as others have mentioned doing so as well.

7racer

that's not true.

The onus of proof is on you ehos not on anyone else. You and others are the one claiming that the intercooler is better than stock and worth the cost paid for it WITHOUT ANY DATA!

Your basing your idea that this is worth the "value" simply on the appearance and cost to you.

poorboyracing

There should be an Ebay section on this forum

ehos

Exactly. Why are you running tests on the XS IC then?

YOU are responsible for proving your $1500 IC is worth it by disproving the $99 XS IC. You have to show your customers that this 'cheap' (your words) copy isn't as good as the $1500 IC.

If I bought your $1500 IC, I would be wondering where that extra $1400 went. Hmmm. Is that IC gold plated by chance?