Kevin T. Wyum

"B) If I recall correctly, the Sport Compact Car review actually showed the ASP medium IC performing better than the ASP large IC at first."


The performance characteristics of the medium vs. large vary with air speed through the core. At higher air speeds through the core they are actually within a few percentage points of each other with respect to efficiency. At lower air speeds the large becomes a fair bit more efficient. The SCC tests weren't a tightly controlled test with a lot of potential variables. I'd say it was a good indicator of performance in real world lapping conditions. Ryan is also right that the SCC test used the improved medium core and the older version of the large core.

"I believe it is because both are forced to use the same duct intake airflow that Mazda designed for the stock IC. At some point, it is just a waste of effort to enlarge the IC (or improve its efficiency) if you don't supply it with more air."

I don't think you understand how heat transfer works. A good starting point would be Newton's law of cooling. Some very basic concepts, thermal exchange obviously increases with time, although rate of exchange does decrease with a smaller delta T. Pressure and air speed reduce with increases in volume. Air is a compressible medium. The face of the intercooler is a larger restriction than an unobstructed smaller air duct. Maybe some people would like to do displacement tests with water to demonstrate the frontal area open to air with various intercoolers. I think I'll leave it at that as a starting point for you.


Obviously I have a bias and I've made that very clear at every turn, even before posting the pics on my new XS IC. Having a bias doesn't make a person wrong is the point you're overlooking. Did you think that was some hidden secret? It's not like I changed my screen name and claimed to be some unnamed third party with 20 posts then started posting how great one IC brand is and how bad another is. Bias is a bad thing when it's found in people claiming to be unbiased or when they keep their bias hidden. Obviously you have a bias as well, the only difference is we don't know who you are or what the cause of your bias is. Mine's out in the open . Point being bias isn't such a bad thing when it's known.

Kevin T. Wyum

HDP

iTrader: (2)

First off, all the data being gathered/displayed right now has nothing to do with how it performs, so once again, it makes entirely no sense. We know how the intercooler we received looks, if it was not to our liking, I'm sure we would have spoken up by now. And as far as doing what it was purchased for, YES, without a doubt, it will perform better than the stock unit that came with the car from Mazda. End of discussion.

Second, no one actually nominated anyone to do tests, especially anyone that would hold such a bias opinion. I do believe it was stated it would be interesting to know how it performed up against said competitor's intercooler. What good would an evaluation do for those who have already purchased it? Nothing. It was even stated by this individual that it would perform better than the stock unit that came with the car, which is the reason I purchased it. WHAT MORE DO I NEED TO KNOW? End of discussion.

rynberg

You don't have to keep coming back to the thread then, now do you?

I, for one, would love to see test data on these things in comparison to the test data for the stock and other aftermarket intercoolers (for which there IS data).

HDP

iTrader: (2)

No, but what fun would that be?

Kevin T. Wyum

...and as I've said before, I believe the XS is likely worth $250. Unless this thing blows out chunks of metal and debris to lunch a motor or leaks like someone with a weak sphincter It would be hard to claim it's not worth $250. Keep in mind though that without a duct it's a paper weight that won't perform any better than stock, producing more heat, just with lower pressure drop.

Needless to say I have an interest in closely examining the core since some people are paying over 500% less than the manufacturing cost alone of just the core in my kit that I have to pay. Even a couple quality .065 wall aluminum U tubes in raw form costs almost $100. If there was some magic source for high end cores for $50ish, keep in mind SSautochrome guy makes a profit as well, the price of my kit would suddenly drop hundreds of dollars and I'd be talking to people in China. Upon initial inspection that's very unlikely.

HDP

iTrader: (2)

Yes, test data will always be welcome, but how many of the other units have gone under the microscope and scrutiny as this unit has even before the unit was even seen or touched in person? Probably none. And as of now, that's all it has been is strictly scrutiny with no performance data to bring to the table. Has anyone cut apart any other brand intercooler?

Bad_Karma7

Come on guys, I really want to hear opinions and data. It seems to me that there are some personal conflicts here, I'm sure you have your reasons. Please let the rest of us hear what the data uncovers.

The pictures do show a little inconsistency, I have this intercooler installed. I happen to be staring right at my Koyo, the welds look to be about the same as far as quality (Koyo being a little better of course). I am not an expert welder, it's just my opinion from comparing the two. However the welds on my intercooler are much better looking than the examples shown here. The couplers and clamps that came with the kit seems to be decent quality. I'm comparing between my Hosetechniques and the supplied equipment, actually the ones that came with the intercooler is actually thicker than the hosetechniques, clamps are same thickness if not slightly thicker. As far as material differences between the two, I can't comment on that subject.

Yes, Kevin Wyum is bias. Truth be told, would you be any different in his shoes? I don't get the feeling that he's going to post false data. I would rather have someone as bias as Kevin review the product, because he's going to be the toughest critic. If the product can withstand that kind of criticism then I would feel that the intercooler is at least of an acceptable quality.

Kevin T. Wyum

I think the clamps seemed flimsy to me because I've always used the breeze clamps. The T-bolts with the kit weigh 2.5oz and the breeze clamps weigh 3.5oz. Of course more weight isn't always better, but they just seem very different when holding them in each hand. In this application the included clamps are probably functional and worst case if the little tack/stamp welds break you have a hose pop out, no big deal. Maybe it could fall into the belt but that seems pretty unlikely.

ehos

No one is going to cut apart a '$1500' intercooler. I have to get into this IC business. $1500 for something that cools air. Wow.

No wonder there is such backlash against the $99 XS IC. Is the $1500 really FIFTEEN Times better?

15! Riiight.

I'm waiting for the data like everyone else. And the $1500 better be 15x better than the XS IC. OR ELSE (See, just kidding, it's ok to it's only a piece of metal).

Just to put it in prespective, if the XS IC cools air 1-2 degrees, then the $1500 better be 15-30 degrees cooler. Right. (Did I put enough smileys?)

fritts

iTrader: (5)

The problem with testing is that you have to test the exact same setup with all the intercoolers to be valid. You can't compare a new test to some old tests that could be in totally different conditions. I seriously doubt anyone is going to be willing to take the time to do that. If I ever become bored enough I may outfit some thermo's to the inlet and outlet. Hopefully tomorrow I can show a pic of my duct. I think it came out pretty good.

moconnor

iTrader: (14)

Jeeze- this a K-12 level straw-man argument. No sensible person would claim that there is a 1:1 relationship between cost and performance. Is a $150k Ferrari 15 times better than a $10k Kia? The question is meaningless.

The question is what is the cost performance ratio for this intercooler. If costs $100 and performs 90% as well as the $1500 M2, then some serious questions need to be asked.

There are two ways of answering this question: (1) performance tests, or (2) vigoruously arguing that the intercooler performs very well.

A surprising number of people seem to be happy with (2).

ehos

A 150K Ferrari IS 15 times better than a 10K Kia. Everyone knows that Straw man.

I thought I put enough smiley's in my message. I think the point I was making (and that was probably missed) is that the $99 XS IC is on par with a $1500 IC if you factor in the price.

But I will let the tests prove that. (Or disprove..)

Kevin T. Wyum

Eventhough you were making a joke I'm guessing you're probably right. It probably does cool 15x better than what I got from ebay .

The sad part is some people actually think that way. I'm not sure how they ended up with an RX7 over an Accord but... That type of person A. Can't afford a higher end product like mine or Chucks, or whoever else, and B. Aren't building a competitive car where the difference would be appreciated or utilized. The XS kit is probably the right product for a segment of owners that can't afford anything better, although not without a duct. No duct is worse than a stock IC setup.

twokrx7

iTrader: (1)

I can say that a $200 stock mount IC without a duct that provides cool air is a ripoff, plain and simple. It broke my heart that I had to tell the guy that I was working for that his IC (with stock duct inplace) was heating up the air instead of cooling it. A $1500 IC with a duct that works is 15 times better, ok, 7.5 times better.

I ran the ASP large for years and never thought much of it as it heat soaked like an oven most of the time, but when moving it cooled down the charge just fine. It was easy to work with as it R&R'd in no time, and most folks like the look so it appealed during car club meetings.

ehos

I seriously hope you were joking about that.

I thought the mods told you no personal attacks? That's some pretty biased and ignorant statements you just made.

fritts

iTrader: (5)

Most realize that yes they need a duct, otherwise there would not have been a group buy. I knew from the get go I would be making my own duct. I like projects and I know a little about fiberglassing. With a duct the XS Power will provide very similar performance in comparison to your setup. If it doesn't not it will be within such a small margin that it won't matter to me anyway. Is a supposed 1-5 degrees cooler worth an extra 1200 to me. Hell no. What do you consider smart paying the extra 1200 for yours and that possible few horsepower it might get you or having an extra 1200 to spend on something else. Sounds like smart consumerism to me.

Kevin, the truth is you feel threatened by this product, why would you post otherwise. You have already told us how bad it is so, please stop posting in this thread if your not going to provide anything constructive. Unless that is the point of your posts to get the thread closed.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

People need to calm down a bit.

I think everyone needs to think about it for a second. Kevin's statement is spot on. Anyone "really" looking to get the most out of their car is not going to get a product like this. Does that mean the product sucks? Not necessarily. It just means it's applying to a different market.

Do you really think companies like Greddy, Apexi, HKS, Kevin and others all spent hundreds/thousands of dollars of R&D to create a product which someone can sell for $200? Those companies/places spend a lot of time testing various cores, end tank designs and everything else to provide an effective product. Do you really think you would be getting that kind of backing from the XS Power SMIC? I seriously doubt it. However, Kevin is still spot on; for a lot of people that part isn't really necessary.

If slapping together whatever core you could find and some end tanks made a good IC, the larger companies would have stop making/selling them a long time ago. People just need to look at what they will be doing with their FD's and make their decisions accordingly.

None the less, any SMIC is pointless without a good duct. That part is fact.

jayk

I'd just like to point out that Pettit sells a heat shield for $400 that is almost exactly the same as Damian's template which you can build yourself for $20. Sure an IC is a more complicated product, but I wouldn't put it past commercial companies to overprice their product just because they know people will pay it.

Another example is the powerfc+commander that sold for > $1300 about a year ago until somebody started selling the same product for $800.

Having said that, I think we're all in agreement that this IC isn't for somebody trying to build a 400+hp monster, a race car, or a show car. Its for those of us that want something better than stock and don't want to pay $1500. Personally I paid $225 for my IC, $800 for my power fc, and $225 for a day at the track.

jayk

Oh, and $120 for the group-buy duct that isn't perfect but gets the job done.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

You should read back through some of Kevin's posts in the past. He goes into quite a bit of detail on what it takes to create an effective IC.

Not a very good example. The problem with the PFC is that their is different pricing for Japan dealers verses USA dealers. Buying directly from Japan is going to yield a better price for that item. It's not that someone has created a "PFC replica" which is just as good as the original and cheaper. Even if the RX7Store went to the same person on eBay to get the PFC, they would have to charge more than $800 to make any money. Definitely not apples to apples with that example.

jayk

My point is that products are often sold for what the market will bear, not what they're worth.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

The RX7 market (or really the aftermarket parts market) really isn't big enough for that. Most companies are just trying to get back their R&D and manufacturing costs.

You aren't going to spend 1000 R&D hours to sell 300 products at $200. After materials you aren't making any money. However, you cut out the R&D and save yourself a lot of hassle. You'll create a product, but how good of a product is being created?

The question people need to ask is what level of performance are they after? One they answer that question they'll know what they should be looking at for their needs. As much as we all would like, you can't build a race car from ebay.

jayk

We can all agree on that I'll be lucky if I ever do get to build a race car, lol, until then I'm just building a fun toy for the track.

HDP

iTrader: (2)

Wow, someone else noticed too...

HDP

iTrader: (2)

Umm, that's what we did do, made a decision according to the needs we put forth, but you seemed to have over looked the part where we got bashed for doing so.