Any 13b longblocks from mazda / shops available and not backordered?
10-14-23, 08:49 PM
#51
Originally Posted by theunitedforge
Wish it was misinformation, there's no amount of mechanical or electrical tuning that can make these engines hold as much, or, for as long as a jz in power or torque at the same build levels, at a full blown peripheral port, your making around 700, the jz does this without changing any internals...
I use previous racers like Len bacon , pac racing, and mazdas own racing team for inspiration and data... In terms of raw power its simply not the same, and the powerband is much different, a peripheral port isn't street-able, where as a 600-800hp 2jz , most definitely is and your biggest concern would be traction.
I use previous racers like Len bacon , pac racing, and mazdas own racing team for inspiration and data... In terms of raw power its simply not the same, and the powerband is much different, a peripheral port isn't street-able, where as a 600-800hp 2jz , most definitely is and your biggest concern would be traction.
Come back when you have real experience. You are just passing along second hand info without data. If you have dreams of a 2jz, go build one.
10-14-23, 08:53 PM
#52
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the main issue here is that you will do 4-5 rebuilds in the lifespan of one- 2jz, maybe even more, trying to make the same power that a 2jz does on stock block.... Also the transmission is light years ahead of the 13b's in terms of capability and upgrades. And the scope of people who can work on these because its a piston engine is much greater, and we are not forced to deal with shady companies like IRP or Angel motorsports.. Also, billet by pac exists, and if we are going to these price levels then billet will soon become a topic of conversation, i am a financial analyst and I could tell theres a problem occuring in this sector, when i posted originally was the best time to buy.
For the record ive just sourced each part individually, if it costs 13k for a basically reman from mazda titled as "New" but has burnt exhaust ports and showing signs of use, then buying all the parts individually, only costs about 8k and you know its BRAND NEW and assembled to how you want it
For the record ive just sourced each part individually, if it costs 13k for a basically reman from mazda titled as "New" but has burnt exhaust ports and showing signs of use, then buying all the parts individually, only costs about 8k and you know its BRAND NEW and assembled to how you want it
If you're going to run sans-rotors, you're probably better off with a 416 CI LS3 or something of that nature. Katech makes nice stuff, and they offer short blocks that are comparably priced. I really don't understand the whole allure with the 2jzgte. You would be going through more trouble for something that is objectively more compromised. Yeah it'll make 750 whp if you bolt on an s366 and throw enough money at it but it's long as hell, weighs more than your average walmart shopper (depending on where you live) and legitimately messes with f/r weight distribution as it entails bolting 200 more lbs forward of the front axle centerline. Really alters the driving dynamic in a chassis that weighs this little. Regardless of what you do, you're going to spend a ton of money one way or another. What will change is what it is being spent on. Pick your poison I suppose.
10-14-23, 09:04 PM
#53
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Are you suggesting that the "new" engines being offered are remanufactured? I have installed them on multiple occasions and they do not exhibit the characteristics you describe. Interested as to whether you have made any discoveries.
If you're going to run sans-rotors, you're probably better off with a 416 CI LS3 or something of that nature. Katech makes nice stuff, and they offer short blocks that are comparably priced. I really don't understand the whole allure with the 2jzgte. You would be going through more trouble for something that is objectively more compromised. Yeah it'll make 750 whp if you bolt on an s366 and throw enough money at it but it's long as hell, weighs more than your average walmart shopper (depending on where you live) and legitimately messes with f/r weight distribution as it entails bolting 200 more lbs forward of the front axle centerline. Really alters the driving dynamic in a chassis that weighs this little. Regardless of what you do, you're going to spend a ton of money one way or another. What will change is what it is being spent on. Pick your poison I suppose.
If you're going to run sans-rotors, you're probably better off with a 416 CI LS3 or something of that nature. Katech makes nice stuff, and they offer short blocks that are comparably priced. I really don't understand the whole allure with the 2jzgte. You would be going through more trouble for something that is objectively more compromised. Yeah it'll make 750 whp if you bolt on an s366 and throw enough money at it but it's long as hell, weighs more than your average walmart shopper (depending on where you live) and legitimately messes with f/r weight distribution as it entails bolting 200 more lbs forward of the front axle centerline. Really alters the driving dynamic in a chassis that weighs this little. Regardless of what you do, you're going to spend a ton of money one way or another. What will change is what it is being spent on. Pick your poison I suppose.
LS is another thing as well, of course, as the supports in place for that already. I have seen a "mazda new" build with corner seal-spring issues and previously mounted semi- burnt exhaust ports on the plates/housings, first hand, my previous builder dis-assembled a new mazda keg in front of me and something was wrong with a corner seal, and it had what looked to be used marks on the housings where the seals touch as well, Light, sure, but existed , probably scrapped from previous cars with a fresh light machining / cleaning. Im not sure, its not like they have a factory going right now cranking out 13b parts. Also should mention several seals were out of spec felt via feeler gauge.The exact same reason i specifically hunted dead stock this week
Last edited by theunitedforge; 10-14-23 at 09:06 PM.
10-14-23, 09:11 PM
#54
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Ok, let us know once you are running 800hp haha. Also, you said 5 rebuilds in your last post,that is nonsense. If you blow it up because of bad tuning, bad fuel, lack of engine protection, etc. then yes, it won't last. But if you knock hard at high rpm at 800hp on a 2jz, you are going to rebuild too.
Come back when you have real experience. You are just passing along second hand info without data. If you have dreams of a 2jz, go build one.
Come back when you have real experience. You are just passing along second hand info without data. If you have dreams of a 2jz, go build one.
I agree with you in alot of ways, I get what your saying, Im just providing analytics /statistics.. If a cars not tuned properly sure, but what happens when you have some o f the best tuners in the world of rotary tuning your rig and it still blows?
Last edited by theunitedforge; 10-14-23 at 09:25 PM.
10-14-23, 09:29 PM
#55
Rotor or no motor
iTrader: (24)
A lot of tuners have gained reputation as rotary specialist tuners and the majority of them are nowhere near good… i wont name any here but i have heard so many amazing and great things about certain tuners and when checking their tune is far from good.
I am not saying that things wont go bad even with the best tuner but more often than not you will realize that there are issues that could have been easily avoided if these people had a better understanding how these engines work.
the same goes to engine builders and parts fabricators. There’s so much garbage around in every field.
sure the 2jz is more forgiving, no one will deny that.
But back to your drivability vs hp. 700whp and very drivable and comfortable is where i am at and perfectly balanced. I highly doubt i could get the same results with a 2jz or even an ls motor without compromising at least one thing. I am sure with a motor swap like that you will be front heavy and your handling is compromised
unless you only want to go straight…
I am not saying that things wont go bad even with the best tuner but more often than not you will realize that there are issues that could have been easily avoided if these people had a better understanding how these engines work.
the same goes to engine builders and parts fabricators. There’s so much garbage around in every field.
sure the 2jz is more forgiving, no one will deny that.
But back to your drivability vs hp. 700whp and very drivable and comfortable is where i am at and perfectly balanced. I highly doubt i could get the same results with a 2jz or even an ls motor without compromising at least one thing. I am sure with a motor swap like that you will be front heavy and your handling is compromised
unless you only want to go straight…
10-14-23, 09:32 PM
#56
Junior Member
Thread Starter
A lot of tuners have gained reputation as rotary specialist tuners and the majority of them are nowhere near good… i wont name any here but i have heard so many amazing and great things about certain tuners and when checking their tune is far from good.
I am not saying that things wont go bad even with the best tuner but more often than not you will realize that there are issues that could have been easily avoided if these people had a better understanding how these engines work.
the same goes to engine builders and parts fabricators. There’s so much garbage around in every field.
sure the 2jz is more forgiving, no one will deny that.
But back to your drivability vs hp. 700whp and very drivable and comfortable is where i am at and perfectly balanced. I highly doubt i could get the same results with a 2jz or even an ls motor without compromising at least one thing. I am sure with a motor swap like that you will be front heavy and your handling is compromised
unless you only want to go straight…
I am not saying that things wont go bad even with the best tuner but more often than not you will realize that there are issues that could have been easily avoided if these people had a better understanding how these engines work.
the same goes to engine builders and parts fabricators. There’s so much garbage around in every field.
sure the 2jz is more forgiving, no one will deny that.
But back to your drivability vs hp. 700whp and very drivable and comfortable is where i am at and perfectly balanced. I highly doubt i could get the same results with a 2jz or even an ls motor without compromising at least one thing. I am sure with a motor swap like that you will be front heavy and your handling is compromised
unless you only want to go straight…
also, im assuming your studded, and alot more?
I should be making similar power already, as im semi bridgeport with a giant custom HKS t51r and all the fuel/ignition/ecu you could want, I want a spare before we go full dyno demon , Im running lightened,side cut heavily modded CNC rx8 rotors (still cheaper than fd with higher rpm capability and more compression), rx7 fd housings, and several other fun oddities- I am an explorer, original HKS manifold with custom welded 60mm wastegate, and a low 5.8 psi spring in this big beast right now. Plan on running some water injection in the new build as well. I like the idea of steam cleaning my engine.
Last edited by theunitedforge; 10-14-23 at 09:48 PM.
10-15-23, 10:59 AM
#57
Rotor or no motor
iTrader: (24)
I didnt want to shift the powerband so i kept the intake port stock. I definitely did not want to go the bridgeport or the peripheral port route so i could maintain decent drivability because i want the car to be civilized when i want to be civilized.
I did however port my exhaust extensively.
i did not lighten the assembly and i did not balance it because the stock balancing is very good. I have seen “balanced and lightened” assemblies and the work was not good. Sure it looked pretty and whatever in terms of machining work but completely useless for the intended purpose.
I do trust the oem balancing far more than i do with the average schmuck balancing skills..
sure some do better work than others but i will personally not benefit anything from it.
I have been through this path before along with a 2 piece e-shaft and it was only a major cause of headaches.
I am using the oem bolts, not a studded motor
the only thing i used that it is not oem in the motor is the apex seals.
In short i have been saying to myself “ KISS” or otherwise known as “KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID”
this formula has worked perfectly for me for many years . Even if it blows up tomorrow sure i will be sad but this motor owes me nothing…
every year i have been saying that i should freshen it up and because it runs so incredibly well i am always postponing it.
How often do you hear stories like that? i am assuming not often enough if i were to base my assumption on your posts.
build it right and it will serve you incredibly well.
I did however port my exhaust extensively.
i did not lighten the assembly and i did not balance it because the stock balancing is very good. I have seen “balanced and lightened” assemblies and the work was not good. Sure it looked pretty and whatever in terms of machining work but completely useless for the intended purpose.
I do trust the oem balancing far more than i do with the average schmuck balancing skills..
sure some do better work than others but i will personally not benefit anything from it.
I have been through this path before along with a 2 piece e-shaft and it was only a major cause of headaches.
I am using the oem bolts, not a studded motor
the only thing i used that it is not oem in the motor is the apex seals.
In short i have been saying to myself “ KISS” or otherwise known as “KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID”
this formula has worked perfectly for me for many years . Even if it blows up tomorrow sure i will be sad but this motor owes me nothing…
every year i have been saying that i should freshen it up and because it runs so incredibly well i am always postponing it.
How often do you hear stories like that? i am assuming not often enough if i were to base my assumption on your posts.
build it right and it will serve you incredibly well.
Last edited by R-R-Rx7; 10-15-23 at 11:05 AM.
10-15-23, 12:18 PM
#58
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I didnt want to shift the powerband so i kept the intake port stock. I definitely did not want to go the bridgeport or the peripheral port route so i could maintain decent drivability because i want the car to be civilized when i want to be civilized.
I did however port my exhaust extensively.
i did not lighten the assembly and i did not balance it because the stock balancing is very good. I have seen “balanced and lightened” assemblies and the work was not good. Sure it looked pretty and whatever in terms of machining work but completely useless for the intended purpose.
I do trust the oem balancing far more than i do with the average schmuck balancing skills..
sure some do better work than others but i will personally not benefit anything from it.
I have been through this path before along with a 2 piece e-shaft and it was only a major cause of headaches.
I am using the oem bolts, not a studded motor
the only thing i used that it is not oem in the motor is the apex seals.
In short i have been saying to myself “ KISS” or otherwise known as “KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID”
this formula has worked perfectly for me for many years . Even if it blows up tomorrow sure i will be sad but this motor owes me nothing…
every year i have been saying that i should freshen it up and because it runs so incredibly well i am always postponing it.
How often do you hear stories like that? i am assuming not often enough if i were to base my assumption on your posts.
build it right and it will serve you incredibly well.
I did however port my exhaust extensively.
i did not lighten the assembly and i did not balance it because the stock balancing is very good. I have seen “balanced and lightened” assemblies and the work was not good. Sure it looked pretty and whatever in terms of machining work but completely useless for the intended purpose.
I do trust the oem balancing far more than i do with the average schmuck balancing skills..
sure some do better work than others but i will personally not benefit anything from it.
I have been through this path before along with a 2 piece e-shaft and it was only a major cause of headaches.
I am using the oem bolts, not a studded motor
the only thing i used that it is not oem in the motor is the apex seals.
In short i have been saying to myself “ KISS” or otherwise known as “KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID”
this formula has worked perfectly for me for many years . Even if it blows up tomorrow sure i will be sad but this motor owes me nothing…
every year i have been saying that i should freshen it up and because it runs so incredibly well i am always postponing it.
How often do you hear stories like that? i am assuming not often enough if i were to base my assumption on your posts.
build it right and it will serve you incredibly well.
i mean what you are saying sounds good, share that map/dyno
Ive yet to see a 700hp non studded non ported engine, im very curious as to how you have managed this, also, I have read through your thread and you have engineered some very cool stuff for autocross, im curious how the meziere/water pump scenario has turned out? You seemed to have engineered the **** out of your car for basic autocross reliability and I can appreciate the intercooler work you have done, hows that new smaller core working out? I am using an HKS core at moment. Alot of your additive manufacturing and engineering is definitely genius
Last edited by theunitedforge; 10-15-23 at 12:59 PM.
10-16-23, 07:52 PM
#59
Rotor or no motor
iTrader: (24)
i mean what you are saying sounds good, share that map/dyno Ive yet to see a 700hp non studded non ported engine, im very curious as to how you have managed this, also, I have read through your thread and you have engineered some very cool stuff for autocross, im curious how the meziere/water pump scenario has turned out? You seemed to have engineered the **** out of your car for basic autocross reliability and I can appreciate the intercooler work you have done, hows that new smaller core working out? I am using an HKS core at moment. Alot of your additive manufacturing and engineering is definitely genius
Ive yet to see a 700hp non studded non ported engine, im very curious as to how you have managed this, also, I have read through your thread and you have engineered some very cool stuff for autocross, im curious how the meziere/water pump scenario has turned out? You seemed to have engineered the **** out of your car for basic autocross reliability and I can appreciate the intercooler work you have done, hows that new smaller core working out? I am using an HKS core at moment. Alot of your additive manufacturing and engineering is definitely genius 
, not even as a spectator. I do time attack, circuit racing.the meziere pump is still a work in progress.
I just received the intercooler on saturday. I will be mounting it in about 3 weeks when i will be going back home.
Thanks for your kind words.To some the journey is more important than the destination. I am an engineer by trade so i always try to push the envelope with my little engineering abilities. I always try new things and try to learn from them. Even the failures i have encountered are definitely lessons. Lessons you cant learn from youtube videos
.As for the map. It is the work of John Renna. I dont think it is right to publicly share it as it is not my work.
Last edited by R-R-Rx7; 10-16-23 at 07:55 PM.
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10-17-23, 08:32 AM
#61
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I suspect the backorder and price hike are related to the factory tooling up to produce the new 8C rotary engines for the MX-30 Rotary EV range extender. They might be intending to build less 13B engines and more of the new 8C engines.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzIgzIU73uU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzIgzIU73uU
price seems to have gone up in Japan too, sadface
10-17-23, 09:10 AM
#62
logically that makes sense, but the factory (rotary engines are made in a separate building) has had the capacity to build way more engines than that. back in the 80's they were making 300 Rx7's a day, now its like 300 a year.
price seems to have gone up in Japan too, sadface
price seems to have gone up in Japan too, sadface
10-17-23, 12:59 PM
#63
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The second cost factor is probably just inflation - while Mazda has generally been increasing the cost of parts over the years, I'm not so sure if they have been in lock-step with the rate of inflation, especially in recent years. Maybe they are playing catch-up in that regard?
the REW price actually hadn't changed in a long time. Since the value of the cars are way up, you could make the argument that it was too cheap
Mazda USA raised prices 6% last year, but not the REW. which then just received the biggest price hike i've ever seen in 30 years...
this is while the Dollar has been really strong vs the Yen.
net net the prices in the USA are up, but in Japan, for us they are actually down, so its inconclusive.
its best to shop around
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