seandizzie

iTrader: (1)

Exactly you don't have time to think... Hence the reason to keep ABS.

The point is not the car, or the venue, its driver ability. Those are the best drivers in the world, and more often than not when they are about to crash, they do so with the brakes locked up. Even the best of the best loose focus.

Your last statement is laughable... Thanks for the chuckle, checking out

marcrx5

Square Hoosiers suck, and are expensive to replace.

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

Cool story bro

Akagis_white_comet

iTrader: (4)

Before this whole things gets blown out of proportion again, I'd like to add the voice of reason into the mix as it should quell any arguments brewing on the subject.

I agree with Karack that it is not worth the time/effort/trouble to remove if it is working properly. However, the whole system operating correctly is the result of the sum of all of its parts, such as the hydraulic unit, wheel sensors, ABS CPU and so on. If one part is not in proper order, the whole system fails to function correctly when it is needed. The times in which it is needed are only when the vehicle is beyond the driver's control, so failure of the system results in an unavoidable accident.

In the FC, cold solder joints in the various CPUs are well known, withinstances of this in the Body CPU as well. It would stand to reason that such could easily occur in the FD as well. Recalling the second sentence of the previous paragraph, one part not working at 100% compromises the whole system.

Personally,I am of the mind where simplicity is underrated and underappreciated. Machismo aside, my FC did not come with ABS (was optional on GXLs tho) and it has made me a better driver as a result. This is because I have the mindset that every time I get in the car, I am aware that it is a 2800-ish pound machine capable of deadly force. The first week I had the car, I forced myself to learn how to handle it in snow, on questionable tires and at reasonable speeds so I could learn to gauge the conditions AND the car under some of the worst possible conditions entirely by feel.

There's a ton of information that comes through the steering wheel, seat and pedals as the car gets loose, then comes back in line. Learn to listen to it.

A couple weeks after learning to handle the car properly, I spun out when changing lanes on the highway at 65mph during a Level 2 Snow Emergency. Before I knew it, I reacted in the same way I learned to do upon purchase of my FC. Turned a driving error into a 360 because I learned to listen to what the car was telling me. Similar to martial arts, by the time you can think about how to react, it's too late.

Overall, what I would do is disable the ABS and learn how the car behaves without it, so you understand how it works by FEEL.

The lesson: Don't rely on a 20 year old computer to pull your *** out of the fire when you throw yourself in by being stupid.

drezjdmrx7

iTrader: (1)

ABS could/will save your life regardless of what anyone on here says. You can never underestimate the unpredictability of stupidity. Track or Street. You come to a more controlled stop it does exactly what it's supposed to do it's called an "Anti-lock Braking System" If your wheels lock up you have no control. It doesn't matter if it's 5 years old or 20 years old it still does what it supposed to do. The advances in ABS technology have come a good way but from since it became available it has always done what it's supposed to do.

You're not invincible if you have ABS but in a panic or an odd situation every little bit helps. Go on the Supra forum in the for sale section and see how many supra's are missing their front fender VIN tags and then 9 times out of 10 they have a 600whp Daily Supra without ABS because everyone thinks less is more. That's not the case when you have a 300+whp car. You need more stopping power and more control. More horsepower less assists doesn't make you more of a man. Power is nothing without control.

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

ABS makes a lot of people think they are invicible as proven as what some of these people post. (driving 140mph but he can't get the fact that those speeds are out of the ABS range of functioning correctly)
When someone hears ABS will make you have better control they start to drive faster and closer to each other because they think it will save them.

Same as other safety features such as airbags, they think it will save them so they don't use a seat belt. Most people don't know airbags have a certain height range to be effective. If your are not within those parameters it does more harm than good.

I am sure you guys have heard "I have AWD I can drive faster in the snow"

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

I did a quick google because I was thinking maybe I am crazy and all these people are yelling for a good reason so put in "abs vs. standard brakes statistics" The first result was NHTSA: ABS braking increases "Fatal-Run-off-Road Crashes" by 34%. That doesn't sound right so I just ingnored the first search result. So I look at the second result which is the NHTSA website here is the result.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF

For those who don't want to read it The third page states "ABS has close to a zero net effect on fatal crash involvements" So I am not crazy after all....

reo

iTrader: (4)

Read the "full report". do not take things out of context like a revival preacher quoting the bible. If you know how to use abs it works( and to use it all you have to do is brake as hard as you can and steer) and works well, even the early primitive ones. My vote is-- keep the abs.

Knockers

I would say keep the abs, unless it is not working properly. As pointed out things can happen, car cuts you off, a kid jumps out in the road chasing a ball. The ABS might save your ***. One good lock up will ruin your tires.

Being that your only planning on driving during good weather, all the snow driving talk on here is pointless and sophomric given the thread topic at hand.

As to the link posted about abs--

Numerous stopping tests by expert drivers at test tracks showed that four-wheel ABS is
successful, especially on wet pavements, in improving overall vehicle stability during braking,
preserving the ability to steer, and reducing stopping distances on many surfaces. But previous
statistical evaluations of ABS have had ambiguous results. Analyses of data from the early
1990s showed significant increases in fatal run-off-road crashes with ABS, on the order of 28
percent. The increase was baffling, given the success of ABS on the test track. However, at that
time, many drivers did not yet know how to use ABS correctly.

Antilock brake systems (ABS) have close to a zero net effect on fatal crash involvements. Runoff-
road crashes significantly increase, offset by significant reductions in collisions with
pedestrians and collisions with other vehicles on wet roads. But ABS is quite effective in
nonfatal crashes, reducing the overall crash-involvement rate by 6 percent in passenger cars and
by 8 percent in LTVs (light trucks – including pickup trucks and SUVs – and vans). In a few
years all new vehicles will be equipped with electronic stability control and will almost certainly
also be equipped with ABS. The combination of ESC and ABS will prevent a large proportion
of fatal and nonfatal crashes.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yes, i assume the system is in working order but should be checked over.

but the FD is not in the same category. while it is a rattle box beer can inside i have never once had to resolder any connection on an FD component. it appears mazda finally learned proper soldering techniques in the early 90's, lol.

the 8's have 10's of thousands of solder points, can't really compare one car side by side unless the same problems persist over time. the 80's were a steep learning curve for almost every car manufacturer.


most people tend to think they are the greatest drivers in the world, as soon as you do that you tend to relax yourself and at that moment is when an issue arises that needs split second reaction. mind wandering, usually it's too late for that split second reaction and the ABS simply gives you more time to recover. my car doesn't have ABS either and i always respect the car everytime i am in it and always focus on the road. if it came with ABS and was functioning properly i would not ditch it just for simplicity or measly quicker acceleration. running drag radials on the street you already have a loose *** end waiting to come out from under you, they are straight line traction tires, any lateral force they will want to wash out.

i started out on 2 wheels on dirt, you quickly respect friction/traction and have since never been in an accident in the over 21 years since even without ABS. if you can follow those simple rules you can live without it, but it is still an aid.

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

I did you should go ahead and read it I am not taking anything out of context.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Removing the ABS reduces the value of the car, just like other similar modifications. So, there's that.

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

If you are worried about value then keep it in a box and when you are ready to sell re-install.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

There's no good reason to ditch the ABS unless you're talking about a track car.

This is from your study, btw. You're definitely skewing the context by referencing only "run off road" crashes and fatalities.

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

You guys crack me up by saying I am skewing the content but then you only qoute one line of the text! I didn't say anything about run off road crashes other than it being a title that I mentioned didn't sound right.

I only mentioned ABS has close to a zero net effect on fatal crash involvements.

You must of forgot the other parts Stating the negative effects of ABS.
If you are going to qoute something then qoute all of the text not just the parts that make you sound correct.


Looks like the text agrees with me ABS does not save lives. Also to add they did not test sports cars because they had a higher run off road rate so they would of skewed the results.

So ABS can save you from a nonfatal accident but increase your chances in a fatal run off road accident which the study says sports cars are more likely to do.

If you got a problem with the statistics then don't argue with me tell the people who made it I can only repeat what is in the report.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

The conclusion of the study is that ABS prevents collisions. So, I'm in agreement with them and arguing with you.
Again, your quote is out of context. At this point, you've made a habit of excerpting and spinning data from this study without any regard to the actual conclusions.

Your quote talks about the fatality rate of crashes, and notes that in fatal crashes ABS doesn't have much effect in reducing those fatalities.
What my quote demonstrates is that ABS prevents crashes in the first place.

Its like you said, if you're going 140 and hit a tree, ABS wont save you.
If you happen to be driving normally, ABS prevents a demonstrable percentage of accidents from taking place.

If you're a fan of preventable low-speed collisions, then by all means remove your ABS.

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

My opinion is this , if you have Plenty Of confidence In your driving , and braking .. been to the track auto-x Know the feeling of the car sliding know when to release the brake threshhold brake

also know how to play with a propotion Valve ( FD has a lot of front bias which needs to be adjusted backwards when you remove ABS But tomuch backwards and your car will spin to much forward and your front tires will lock up alot quicker then they should in relation to the braking force of the rear )

Now If you have these things covered .. You CAN stop quicker then with ABS ..

someone mentioned which car would stop in less distance between abs and none ABS .. truth is ..

in 10 braking tests .. the ABS will get the same constant distance .. while the none ABS you may get 5 runs where it will beat the ABS marginally , and the other 5 may be worse . because your foot may mess up ..

ABS adds consistency if you're a racing driver , or do constant track days and performance driving events where threshold braking is second nature to you .

Things may be different But , if you watch F1 you would See that even they lock their brakes All teh time . and they are the best drivers in the world

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

Barban Lets start from the beginning so maybe you will understand.

I start by saying I googled "abs vs. standard brakes statistics".

I say the first results says this and I input the title of that page. NHTSA: ABS braking increases "Fatal-Run-off-Road Crashes" by 34%.

I then say that does not sound right so I ignore it and go to the second search which is the NHTSA report.

Then I read the report and say ABS has close to a zero net effect on fatal crash involvements. (If you notice I am replying to all the people who think it will and you are superman if you have abs)

Then I post the Abstract of the report. For you that don't know an abstract it is the summary of the whole report.

Barban you only qouted one line of 4.1. Which you also skewed again by saying ABS saves you from crashes. This is not true that is only for NON FATAL crashes.
Lets have the real qoute:
Why didn't you post the rest of 4.1? I know why because you are a hypocrite lets insert the next bullet of 4.1.

Maybe if I was arguing about non fatal crashes I would agree with you but I don't see anywhere I was.

So look if you have ABS you won't get into that many non fatal crashes, but it increases your chance of fatal crash by run off road. You also have a less chance of killing a pedestrian.

If you don't have ABS you will get into more non fatal crashes, but you have less of a chance of dying by run off road. You have more chance of killing a pedestrian.

So it is either you die or a pedestrian.


Tem120 ABS was not made so you can stop in a shorter distance. It was made so you can still control your car while braking hard. Now tell people that ABS will create a shorter stopping distance they will start following closer. This is why ABS does not work as intended it is simply a computer and we control it. Humans are simply not perfect.

Also f1 drivers are like comparing apples to oranges they are driving 200+ we are driving an average of 40.

Knockers

Take your own advise

turboIIrotary

iTrader: (9)

I just don't like being called a liar so I stand my ground. It's funny how everyone is accusing me of skewing information out of the report but they are the ones modifying the qoutes to make it sound like they are in the right.

CYD

My car came with abs disabled by previous owner. I also pulled the abs unit out to save weight. I can't say that I have had any issues driving on the street without abs. However it also has a wilwood brake controller so that's the reason for no abs. Knowing I have no abs, I give a more healthy margin of space to brake when driving. But when it comes to low friction surfaces, I am at the mercy of my own abilities.