View Poll Results: Should ABS be deleted?
Yes
5
17.24%
No
24
82.76%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll
ABS delete on a street build
10-26-23, 09:42 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
ABS delete on a street build
We all have probably read about the abs delete option. The pros on the track, the cons on the street. It looks clean deleted. Some argue it is not often engaged. And some kits allow tune-ability of the brakes. So I am wondering on consensus among the masses. My build will be a nice day, fun ride, kind of car. To delete, or not to delete, that is the question.
10-26-23, 10:07 AM
#2
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I would try to keep it if it is a primarily street driven car. I personally believe that an OE boosted setup sans ABS will increase your likelihood of locking wheels up and as a consequence, flat spotting tires or hitting stuff on low traction surfaces. You've also got to keep in mind that the point at which a wheel will lock up is dependent on several conditions such as how much weight is distributed under dynamic conditions (fore/aft weight transfer), the available traction of the road surface and your brake pad's coefficient of friction (that may be temperature dependent!)
While a slightly different application, I was in a similar position a while back when I decided I didn't like how the vacuum booster changed the amount of pedal travel and pressure required to achieve a desired line pressure (felt inconsistent). I ended up deciding that I wanted to do a manual brake conversion w/ aftermarket pedal assy. and a dual MC w/ balance bar setup and have been working through the (re)design.
I'd like to eventually put the ABS back in, but a standalone system like the MK60 as I have reservations regarding the efficacy of the OE ABS programming on race rubber (ice mode).
If you only use the car as a fair weather driver like many of us do, you could probably get away with it as long as you are cognizant of the limitations of the system. A buddy of mine has had two different street FDs sans ABS and he has had no issues while operating within the aforementioned conditions, but if I were primarily street driving the car, I would keep it.
While a slightly different application, I was in a similar position a while back when I decided I didn't like how the vacuum booster changed the amount of pedal travel and pressure required to achieve a desired line pressure (felt inconsistent). I ended up deciding that I wanted to do a manual brake conversion w/ aftermarket pedal assy. and a dual MC w/ balance bar setup and have been working through the (re)design.
I'd like to eventually put the ABS back in, but a standalone system like the MK60 as I have reservations regarding the efficacy of the OE ABS programming on race rubber (ice mode).
If you only use the car as a fair weather driver like many of us do, you could probably get away with it as long as you are cognizant of the limitations of the system. A buddy of mine has had two different street FDs sans ABS and he has had no issues while operating within the aforementioned conditions, but if I were primarily street driving the car, I would keep it.
10-26-23, 10:15 AM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I would try to keep it if it is a primarily street driven car. I personally believe that an OE boosted setup sans ABS will increase your likelihood of locking wheels up and as a consequence, flat spotting tires or hitting stuff on low traction surfaces. You've also got to keep in mind that the point at which a wheel will lock up is dependent on several conditions such as how much weight is distributed under dynamic conditions (fore/aft weight transfer), the available traction of the road surface and your brake pad's coefficient of friction (that may be temperature dependent!)
While a slightly different application, I was in a similar position a while back when I decided I didn't like how the vacuum booster changed the amount of pedal travel and pressure required to achieve a desired line pressure (felt inconsistent). I ended up deciding that I wanted to do a manual brake conversion w/ aftermarket pedal assy. and a dual MC w/ balance bar setup and have been working through the (re)design.
I'd like to eventually put the ABS back in, but a standalone system like the MK60 as I have reservations regarding the efficacy of the OE ABS programming on race rubber (ice mode).
If you only use the car as a fair weather driver like many of us do, you could probably get away with it as long as you are cognizant of the limitations of the system. A buddy of mine has had two different street FDs sans ABS and he has had no issues while operating within the aforementioned conditions, but if I were primarily street driving the car, I would keep it.
While a slightly different application, I was in a similar position a while back when I decided I didn't like how the vacuum booster changed the amount of pedal travel and pressure required to achieve a desired line pressure (felt inconsistent). I ended up deciding that I wanted to do a manual brake conversion w/ aftermarket pedal assy. and a dual MC w/ balance bar setup and have been working through the (re)design.
I'd like to eventually put the ABS back in, but a standalone system like the MK60 as I have reservations regarding the efficacy of the OE ABS programming on race rubber (ice mode).
If you only use the car as a fair weather driver like many of us do, you could probably get away with it as long as you are cognizant of the limitations of the system. A buddy of mine has had two different street FDs sans ABS and he has had no issues while operating within the aforementioned conditions, but if I were primarily street driving the car, I would keep it.
10-26-23, 10:42 AM
#4
Mine's a pretty serious track car and street car, and I'm moving to MK60. My factory ABS has failed and if I wasn't swapping, I'd be fixing the OEM for precisely the reasons above. These are vintage cars now, and worth more than they used to be. All it takes is some strange scenario on the road that invokes a panic stop, or surprise conditions (I don't normally drive it in the rain, but we had pouring rain at DGRR, and I wasn't going to NOT drive it), and if the ABS saves the car, it's worth it.
10-26-23, 10:56 AM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Mine's a pretty serious track car and street car, and I'm moving to MK60. My factory ABS has failed and if I wasn't swapping, I'd be fixing the OEM for precisely the reasons above. These are vintage cars now, and worth more than they used to be. All it takes is some strange scenario on the road that invokes a panic stop, or surprise conditions (I don't normally drive it in the rain, but we had pouring rain at DGRR, and I wasn't going to NOT drive it), and if the ABS saves the car, it's worth it.
10-26-23, 11:28 AM
#6
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if the pump is good, i would keep the system.
if the pump leaks its actually really easy to rebuild, but you are on your own to look up the O rings. (there is probably a thread or two with part numbers, not Mazda)
if the pump leaks its actually really easy to rebuild, but you are on your own to look up the O rings. (there is probably a thread or two with part numbers, not Mazda)
10-26-23, 11:33 AM
#7
To delete or not delete..... there are a lot of factors that go into the decision making process and making that decision isn't really straightforward. Same with deleting the OMP. Asking if it SHOULD be deleted isn't exactly a fair way to present it because the answer should always be no. It absolutely SHOULDN'T be deleted rather it CAN be deleted.
https://www.rx7club.com/full-detail-...e-kit-1160191/
You may have seen already but there is some discussion there on what should be considered when deciding to keep or dump it along with some pros and cons.
https://www.rx7club.com/full-detail-...e-kit-1160191/
You may have seen already but there is some discussion there on what should be considered when deciding to keep or dump it along with some pros and cons.
Trending Topics
10-26-23, 11:43 AM
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
To delete or not delete..... there are a lot of factors that go into the decision making process and making that decision isn't really straightforward. Same with deleting the OMP. Asking if it SHOULD be deleted isn't exactly a fair way to present it because the answer should always be no. It absolutely SHOULDN'T be deleted rather it CAN be deleted.
https://www.rx7club.com/full-detail-...e-kit-1160191/
You may have seen already but there is some discussion there on what should be considered when deciding to keep or dump it along with some pros and cons.
https://www.rx7club.com/full-detail-...e-kit-1160191/
You may have seen already but there is some discussion there on what should be considered when deciding to keep or dump it along with some pros and cons.
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Gone_in_60k (10-26-23)
10-26-23, 12:18 PM
#10
i was referring to the poll question where it asks "should abs be deleted". You may want to try reaching out to alex rodriguez and asking for his input. his abs delete kit was the gold standard for a while. some of his past threads may already have some good abs delete info in it already. he is an avid track driver. although it is track conditions and not street, his opinions on the matter would be valuable and would likely help in your decision making.
10-26-23, 12:53 PM
#11
Junior Member
Thread Starter
i was referring to the poll question where it asks "should abs be deleted". You may want to try reaching out to alex rodriguez and asking for his input. his abs delete kit was the gold standard for a while. some of his past threads may already have some good abs delete info in it already. he is an avid track driver. although it is track conditions and not street, his opinions on the matter would be valuable and would likely help in your decision making.
10-26-23, 07:40 PM
#13
Rotor or no motor
iTrader: (24)
A non functioning ABS Or one that has been removed on a street car can end up baddly.
When my abs module suffered a damage anything more than the slightest touch of the pedal would lock my front wheels completely. Even more experienced drivers than me who drove my car scared the crap out of them.
thankfully now it is fixed
When my abs module suffered a damage anything more than the slightest touch of the pedal would lock my front wheels completely. Even more experienced drivers than me who drove my car scared the crap out of them.
thankfully now it is fixed
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Gone_in_60k (10-26-23)
10-27-23, 09:04 AM
#16
My personal experience with ABS deleted has been fine. No safety concerns. Of course keeping a properly working ABS would be the way to go. My current FD had the ABS deleted when I purchased it 13 years ago. I've have had an FD with working ABS before my current car. Multiple emergency stops when I would daily drive it to work. About 15 stops from around 160 to 165 mph at 1/2 mile roll racing events. So a 1/2 mile all out and another 1/2 mile to come to a full stop. Knock on wood, it has been drama free. I'm sure it would have been better with ABS.
Not sure there is a difference comparing a car with a failed ABS and a car with the ABS properly deleted.
Not sure there is a difference comparing a car with a failed ABS and a car with the ABS properly deleted.
10-27-23, 01:55 PM
#17
I know the thread has run it's course but I'm taking a break for work so might as well post something that might be helpful to someone - or at least give me something to do for a few minutes 
I strongly prefer ABS for street use. Back when I first started driving in the 80s in the north east in my shitty 80s VW or my parent's 70s Oldsmobile, I locked up brakes so many times in the wet. Even something stupid like pot holes in the braking zone approaching a red light or a stop sign is enough to cause a wheel to lock. Luckily, I didn't have any bad outcomes but more than a few scary moments. I'm so lucky nobody was in the cross walks when I skidded through a stop sign... The ABS on the FD and other cars of that era are decent for that use case.
On track in my FD or E36 or my MSM Miata back in days before I started racing, I appreciated ABS - especially on damp tracks like we'd get in the northeast. However, I have seen various moments like R-R-RX7 posted on ABS equipped cars running old tech ABS where the old ABS have trouble dealing with sticky tires, fast changes in speed at different wheels due to sticky tires, "black ice" type scenarios etc. Hell, even my friend's E46 race car on Hoosiers using it's more modern ABS system had a "black ice" scenario putting him into the tire wall recently. I haven't seen it happen super often but it usually sucks when it does happen on track. For advanced track and race use, I definitely can see how an ABS removal with appropriate fixes for brake balance can be beneficial. The frequency of the failure on track will be low but the results can be bad.
My .02 cents. Back to earning some money now.
I strongly prefer ABS for street use. Back when I first started driving in the 80s in the north east in my shitty 80s VW or my parent's 70s Oldsmobile, I locked up brakes so many times in the wet. Even something stupid like pot holes in the braking zone approaching a red light or a stop sign is enough to cause a wheel to lock. Luckily, I didn't have any bad outcomes but more than a few scary moments. I'm so lucky nobody was in the cross walks when I skidded through a stop sign... The ABS on the FD and other cars of that era are decent for that use case.
On track in my FD or E36 or my MSM Miata back in days before I started racing, I appreciated ABS - especially on damp tracks like we'd get in the northeast. However, I have seen various moments like R-R-RX7 posted on ABS equipped cars running old tech ABS where the old ABS have trouble dealing with sticky tires, fast changes in speed at different wheels due to sticky tires, "black ice" type scenarios etc. Hell, even my friend's E46 race car on Hoosiers using it's more modern ABS system had a "black ice" scenario putting him into the tire wall recently. I haven't seen it happen super often but it usually sucks when it does happen on track. For advanced track and race use, I definitely can see how an ABS removal with appropriate fixes for brake balance can be beneficial. The frequency of the failure on track will be low but the results can be bad.
My .02 cents. Back to earning some money now.
The following 3 users liked this post by gracer7-rx7:
10-27-23, 02:01 PM
#18
Unless you practice a lot (read racing driver), when you have a truly panic stop situation on the street one tends to forget all the proper steps to stopping without ABS…if your first instinct is to modulate your braking force, then no ABS might be ok if still less than ideal on the street.
obviously, as others said, track driving is a different use case.
obviously, as others said, track driving is a different use case.
10-27-23, 04:49 PM
#19
Rotor or no motor
iTrader: (24)
I know the thread has run it's course but I'm taking a break for work so might as well post something that might be helpful to someone - or at least give me something to do for a few minutes
I strongly prefer ABS for street use. Back when I first started driving in the 80s in the north east in my shitty 80s VW or my parent's 70s Oldsmobile, I locked up brakes so many times in the wet. Even something stupid like pot holes in the braking zone approaching a red light or a stop sign is enough to cause a wheel to lock. Luckily, I didn't have any bad outcomes but more than a few scary moments. I'm so lucky nobody was in the cross walks when I skidded through a stop sign... The ABS on the FD and other cars of that era are decent for that use case.
On track in my FD or E36 or my MSM Miata back in days before I started racing, I appreciated ABS - especially on damp tracks like we'd get in the northeast. However, I have seen various moments like R-R-RX7 posted on ABS equipped cars running old tech ABS where the old ABS have trouble dealing with sticky tires, fast changes in speed at different wheels due to sticky tires, "black ice" type scenarios etc. Hell, even my friend's E46 race car on Hoosiers using it's more modern ABS system had a "black ice" scenario putting him into the tire wall recently. I haven't seen it happen super often but it usually sucks when it does happen on track. For advanced track and race use, I definitely can see how an ABS removal with appropriate fixes for brake balance can be beneficial. The frequency of the failure on track will be low but the results can be bad.
My .02 cents. Back to earning some money now.
I strongly prefer ABS for street use. Back when I first started driving in the 80s in the north east in my shitty 80s VW or my parent's 70s Oldsmobile, I locked up brakes so many times in the wet. Even something stupid like pot holes in the braking zone approaching a red light or a stop sign is enough to cause a wheel to lock. Luckily, I didn't have any bad outcomes but more than a few scary moments. I'm so lucky nobody was in the cross walks when I skidded through a stop sign... The ABS on the FD and other cars of that era are decent for that use case.
On track in my FD or E36 or my MSM Miata back in days before I started racing, I appreciated ABS - especially on damp tracks like we'd get in the northeast. However, I have seen various moments like R-R-RX7 posted on ABS equipped cars running old tech ABS where the old ABS have trouble dealing with sticky tires, fast changes in speed at different wheels due to sticky tires, "black ice" type scenarios etc. Hell, even my friend's E46 race car on Hoosiers using it's more modern ABS system had a "black ice" scenario putting him into the tire wall recently. I haven't seen it happen super often but it usually sucks when it does happen on track. For advanced track and race use, I definitely can see how an ABS removal with appropriate fixes for brake balance can be beneficial. The frequency of the failure on track will be low but the results can be bad.
My .02 cents. Back to earning some money now.
sure the early ABS systems were okay for their time, the fd has received several iterations over the years. They started with the F100 pump and they ended with the F146 with several models in between. The latest fds 2001-2002 had virtually the same abs system as the rx8 which is a significant improvement over the original model. Thats the one i am using.
the control module on mine was damaged probably due to some in-rush current. I would lock on the street on regular tires terribly where a normal car from the 80s wouldn’t.
after putting a new control module the abs has been functioning flawlessly and it wont lock up.
but back to the properly engineered ABS delete system, if something was to happen where instinctively you will slam your brakes the non ABS car will still lock up in the street conditions and the results wont be pretty. I dont think that while in the emergency mode you will back off the pedal before the ABS locks up.
but yes a non functioning abs vs a properly deleted kit , hands down the deleted abs sure wins.
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gracer7-rx7 (10-27-23)
10-27-23, 05:09 PM
#20
Racing Rotary Since 1983
iTrader: (6)
ABS--no ABS-uprated ABS, i would like to speak up in support of option four.
no ABS, no power assist.
i have run manual brakes for close to twenty years both on track and to the local bar. two Tilton master cylinders and a balance bar. easy on the leg and so easy to adjust brake bias. i don't consider a properly engineered manual brake system to be just a track deal. it is great around town.
and if a girl scout with a cute little puppy happens to venture out into my path my brake system (including 53% rear weight) will allow her to safely make it to the ice cream wagon.
no ABS, no power assist.
i have run manual brakes for close to twenty years both on track and to the local bar. two Tilton master cylinders and a balance bar. easy on the leg and so easy to adjust brake bias. i don't consider a properly engineered manual brake system to be just a track deal. it is great around town.
and if a girl scout with a cute little puppy happens to venture out into my path my brake system (including 53% rear weight) will allow her to safely make it to the ice cream wagon.
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jkstill (11-30-23)
10-30-23, 12:48 PM
#21
Same here, Howard, but with dual AP MCs.
Part of driving on a track that i like is the general challenge to control the car and just standing on the brakes and letting the ABS hone its skills isn't part of that :-)
But if a person's car is working pretty well now and is mostly street-driven, i wouldn't make a concerted effort to delete ABS.
Part of driving on a track that i like is the general challenge to control the car and just standing on the brakes and letting the ABS hone its skills isn't part of that :-)
But if a person's car is working pretty well now and is mostly street-driven, i wouldn't make a concerted effort to delete ABS.
The following 2 users liked this post by MilesBFree:
Gone_in_60k (10-30-23),
Howard Coleman (11-01-23)
11-01-23, 08:28 AM
#22
Junior Member
Heres the bosch abs setul that was mentioned before for $10,000. Its really just $7,200 for the entire setup (still expensive for a poor like me). This is around the same price as what the e46 abs setups are going for and is brand new and has a 12 setting controller for all different weather.
https://kohrmotorsports.com/product/...e-system-race/
https://kohrmotorsports.com/product/...e-system-race/
11-01-23, 09:36 AM
#23
Guys, if you're interested in thew Bosch motorsport ABS (MK-60), give this guy a call:
https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/
I have the system ready to install, and it's not $10k. It uses a refurbished BMW E46 ABS pump and ECU, is standalone, with the Continental/TEVES motorsport programming. He sets it up to the specs of your system.
I just ran an event with my currently broken OEM ABS. Sure it's doable, and with a manual conversion you'd have even better feel. But, it's not really about me or my skill. Stuff happens on track, just like it does on the road. Surprise conditions, stupidity or mistakes on the part of other drivers, etc. These are vintage cars worth a fair amount of money now. Something weird happens, and I slam on the brake in a panic, ABS just might save the car. Or me. If I'm going full manual, I'm thinking I'd just get a proper race car, SRF, DSports racer or other.
https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/
I have the system ready to install, and it's not $10k. It uses a refurbished BMW E46 ABS pump and ECU, is standalone, with the Continental/TEVES motorsport programming. He sets it up to the specs of your system.
I just ran an event with my currently broken OEM ABS. Sure it's doable, and with a manual conversion you'd have even better feel. But, it's not really about me or my skill. Stuff happens on track, just like it does on the road. Surprise conditions, stupidity or mistakes on the part of other drivers, etc. These are vintage cars worth a fair amount of money now. Something weird happens, and I slam on the brake in a panic, ABS just might save the car. Or me. If I'm going full manual, I'm thinking I'd just get a proper race car, SRF, DSports racer or other.
11-01-23, 07:58 PM
#24
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Guys, if you're interested in thew Bosch motorsport ABS (MK-60), give this guy a call:
https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/
I have the system ready to install, and it's not $10k. It uses a refurbished BMW E46 ABS pump and ECU, is standalone, with the Continental/TEVES motorsport programming. He sets it up to the specs of your system.
I just ran an event with my currently broken OEM ABS. Sure it's doable, and with a manual conversion you'd have even better feel. But, it's not really about me or my skill. Stuff happens on track, just like it does on the road. Surprise conditions, stupidity or mistakes on the part of other drivers, etc. These are vintage cars worth a fair amount of money now. Something weird happens, and I slam on the brake in a panic, ABS just might save the car. Or me. If I'm going full manual, I'm thinking I'd just get a proper race car, SRF, DSports racer or other.
https://www.rhtmotorsport.com/
I have the system ready to install, and it's not $10k. It uses a refurbished BMW E46 ABS pump and ECU, is standalone, with the Continental/TEVES motorsport programming. He sets it up to the specs of your system.
I just ran an event with my currently broken OEM ABS. Sure it's doable, and with a manual conversion you'd have even better feel. But, it's not really about me or my skill. Stuff happens on track, just like it does on the road. Surprise conditions, stupidity or mistakes on the part of other drivers, etc. These are vintage cars worth a fair amount of money now. Something weird happens, and I slam on the brake in a panic, ABS just might save the car. Or me. If I'm going full manual, I'm thinking I'd just get a proper race car, SRF, DSports racer or other.
*Ask me how I know*
Brake bias and pad release characteristics become a much larger concern without ABS.
11-01-23, 10:15 PM
#25
I'm in the pro-ABS camp. I've only felt ABS kick in when the conditions were appropriate, usually on dusty or slick sections of road. I think I've felt it a few times if I tried to brake too late at an autocross event.
The good thing about ABS is that if just one or two tires are locking the computer shouldn't release pressure on the tires that still have grip and are helping slow the car. Even the most experienced driver is still limited by how the pedal and brake hydraulics work; when the driver modulates the pedal to stop a skid they will be releasing pressure on all corners.
The good thing about ABS is that if just one or two tires are locking the computer shouldn't release pressure on the tires that still have grip and are helping slow the car. Even the most experienced driver is still limited by how the pedal and brake hydraulics work; when the driver modulates the pedal to stop a skid they will be releasing pressure on all corners.