400RWHP on the m2 twins...the saga continues! but not the way i expected (thanks xs)
03-17-04, 02:41 PM
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Like Rynberg said there is only one real a/f ratio. If a wideband isnt reading that ratio then something is wrong with its calibration. Widebands that dont have built in temp correction need to be in a certain temp range and if they arent it will affect thier reading and make them inaccurate.
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03-17-04, 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by rynberg
There is only one "true" A/F ratio. Either a wideband reports it accurately or it doesn't. Please explain to me how two different PROPERLY FUNCTIONING AND CALIBRATED meters designed to read the same thing can have significantly different results.
There is only one "true" A/F ratio. Either a wideband reports it accurately or it doesn't. Please explain to me how two different PROPERLY FUNCTIONING AND CALIBRATED meters designed to read the same thing can have significantly different results.
My point was (People throw these AFR's numbers off without saying what Wideband they use)
Also whenwe got dougs uego1000 when he first designed it we tested it and it read 10.5 when our baileys read 11.9.1 !
03-17-04, 05:26 PM
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03-17-04, 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by huffner
Baileys use a temp compensation and 5 wire sensor. Harebba uses a different temp compensation and 5 wire sensor and we have had both units on at the same exact time and while the baileys read 11.8.1 the harebba read 10.8.1 a whole ratio off. It all depends on what it is calibrated to. Also old sensors will give a false reading aswell.
My point was (People throw these AFR's numbers off without saying what Wideband they use)
Also whenwe got dougs uego1000 when he first designed it we tested it and it read 10.5 when our baileys read 11.9.1 !
Baileys use a temp compensation and 5 wire sensor. Harebba uses a different temp compensation and 5 wire sensor and we have had both units on at the same exact time and while the baileys read 11.8.1 the harebba read 10.8.1 a whole ratio off. It all depends on what it is calibrated to. Also old sensors will give a false reading aswell.
My point was (People throw these AFR's numbers off without saying what Wideband they use)
Also whenwe got dougs uego1000 when he first designed it we tested it and it read 10.5 when our baileys read 11.9.1 !
03-17-04, 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by GoRacer
^ that's pretty sick! How do you know if the shop's dyno is calibrated correctly? Does it have to be certified or done once a year or something?
^ that's pretty sick! How do you know if the shop's dyno is calibrated correctly? Does it have to be certified or done once a year or something?
03-18-04, 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by rynberg
It's as simple as this: They can't both be right. Like I said before, in all caps, two PROPERLY FUNCTIONING AND CALIBRATED meters will read the same. Period.
It's as simple as this: They can't both be right. Like I said before, in all caps, two PROPERLY FUNCTIONING AND CALIBRATED meters will read the same. Period.
My point exactly! Each person,shop, and or tuner only trust THERE METER. So back to my first post. I use a baileys and only trust that unit. I Tune to 11.7 - 12.0 on that unit. If I had to tune with the harebba I would tune to 10.5 - 10.7 becuase that is what it has been calibrated to. I dont think you really understand my post.
03-18-04, 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by huffner
With all this AFR this and AFR that. You do know that ALL Air Fuel Meters read different Right? XS may use a Baileys and Gotham may use an FJO or Arebba or dyno jet. I mean there is no mention of what calibration of meters were used.
With all this AFR this and AFR that. You do know that ALL Air Fuel Meters read different Right? XS may use a Baileys and Gotham may use an FJO or Arebba or dyno jet. I mean there is no mention of what calibration of meters were used.
xs also kept a close eye on exhaust gas temps. I was told that they couldnt figure out why my exhaust gas temps were so high while they were tuning (well there is a reason for that...its called LEAN AFR's) . If you use a wideband and an exhaust gas temp guage then it is pretty obvious if the wideband says its right but the exhaust gas temp guage says its hot, that the wideband could be off and it is worth investigating.
I was told that the vehicle was tuned and finished except for some timing being retarded up top and it running too rich up top as well (i questioned the choppy sheets they gave me in the areas past 6k). this was my whole point of taking it to gotham...to have my timing and afr's cleaned up properly. I thought I was done with it and was looking forward to paint and polishing all the goodies. oh well..back to the drawing board.
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
point being, read exhaust gas temps too if you can. point number two, if you dont have a front mount, they will try to sell you one.
jason
Last edited by artguy; 03-18-04 at 10:06 AM.
03-18-04, 10:13 AM
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Bad story Artguy. I am kinda where you were. I hate lag. I'm still on stock sequentials and running 11.6 with a cat so for the moment all is well.
But I know I am on borrowed time.
If the engine doesn't grenade, the tired old turbos will and then it's a question of going single or trying to do better with new twins.
I think the single is probably the better answer.
Everybody in Peter Farrell's shop says the same thing Kan says: you CAN get lots of responsiveness down low with the right single, with gobs more higher up, and fewer headaches.
You have not mentioned cost. What is the new rig gonna run you?
And how much were you charged for dyno time? PFS charges me a pretty reasonable $300 for two hours of Ray Wilson and Peter Farrell's mapping time - a bargain to my mind.
But I know I am on borrowed time.
If the engine doesn't grenade, the tired old turbos will and then it's a question of going single or trying to do better with new twins.
I think the single is probably the better answer.
Everybody in Peter Farrell's shop says the same thing Kan says: you CAN get lots of responsiveness down low with the right single, with gobs more higher up, and fewer headaches.
You have not mentioned cost. What is the new rig gonna run you?
And how much were you charged for dyno time? PFS charges me a pretty reasonable $300 for two hours of Ray Wilson and Peter Farrell's mapping time - a bargain to my mind.
03-18-04, 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by artguy
xs also kept a close eye on exhaust gas temps. I was told that they couldnt figure out why my exhaust gas temps were so high while they were tuning (well there is a reason for that...its called LEAN AFR's) . If you use a wideband and an exhaust gas temp guage then it is pretty obvious if the wideband says its right but the exhaust gas temp guage says its hot, that the wideband could be off and it is worth investigating.
I was told that the vehicle was tuned and finished except for some timing being retarded up top and it running too rich up top as well (i questioned the choppy sheets they gave me in the areas past 6k). this was my whole point of taking it to gotham...to have my timing and afr's cleaned up properly. I thought I was done with it and was looking forward to paint and polishing all the goodies. oh well..back to the drawing board.
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
point being, read exhaust gas temps too if you can. point number two, if you dont have a front mount, they will try to sell you one.
jason
xs also kept a close eye on exhaust gas temps. I was told that they couldnt figure out why my exhaust gas temps were so high while they were tuning (well there is a reason for that...its called LEAN AFR's) . If you use a wideband and an exhaust gas temp guage then it is pretty obvious if the wideband says its right but the exhaust gas temp guage says its hot, that the wideband could be off and it is worth investigating.
I was told that the vehicle was tuned and finished except for some timing being retarded up top and it running too rich up top as well (i questioned the choppy sheets they gave me in the areas past 6k). this was my whole point of taking it to gotham...to have my timing and afr's cleaned up properly. I thought I was done with it and was looking forward to paint and polishing all the goodies. oh well..back to the drawing board.
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
point being, read exhaust gas temps too if you can. point number two, if you dont have a front mount, they will try to sell you one.
jason
03-18-04, 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by artguy
xs also kept a close eye on exhaust gas temps. I was told that they couldnt figure out why my exhaust gas temps were so high while they were tuning (well there is a reason for that...its called LEAN AFR's) . If you use a wideband and an exhaust gas temp guage then it is pretty obvious if the wideband says its right but the exhaust gas temp guage says its hot, that the wideband could be off and it is worth investigating.
I was told that the vehicle was tuned and finished except for some timing being retarded up top and it running too rich up top as well (i questioned the choppy sheets they gave me in the areas past 6k). this was my whole point of taking it to gotham...to have my timing and afr's cleaned up properly. I thought I was done with it and was looking forward to paint and polishing all the goodies. oh well..back to the drawing board.
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
point being, read exhaust gas temps too if you can. point number two, if you dont have a front mount, they will try to sell you one.
jason
xs also kept a close eye on exhaust gas temps. I was told that they couldnt figure out why my exhaust gas temps were so high while they were tuning (well there is a reason for that...its called LEAN AFR's) . If you use a wideband and an exhaust gas temp guage then it is pretty obvious if the wideband says its right but the exhaust gas temp guage says its hot, that the wideband could be off and it is worth investigating.
I was told that the vehicle was tuned and finished except for some timing being retarded up top and it running too rich up top as well (i questioned the choppy sheets they gave me in the areas past 6k). this was my whole point of taking it to gotham...to have my timing and afr's cleaned up properly. I thought I was done with it and was looking forward to paint and polishing all the goodies. oh well..back to the drawing board.
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
point being, read exhaust gas temps too if you can. point number two, if you dont have a front mount, they will try to sell you one.
jason
You are making me lose faith in XS. The M2 Large comment they made is total and complete BS. I spent over two hours on the phone one day with Corky Bell go over the efficiency, construction, psi loss etc. of that unit. Corky said that IC was over 88% efficient, which you only see on race cars. Corky also stated the IC was good for 440-450 rwhp all day long. (continuious use). He said it was a fantastic IC.
03-18-04, 12:49 PM
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That's what scares me about the PFC and makes me want to go Buddy Club (piggy back). I don't think any shop should take more then "two" hours and the bill shouldn't be more then $500. If I wanted to get raped, get husstled into buying something, i'd call any one of my X-G/F's ...at least i'd get a good hummer with it!
So there's only a few options but I haven't read much feedback. Signal Auto, Zeal Motorsports, fly that guy from Texas, ship your car to Japan. Can anyone post results from other shops and approximately how much?
So there's only a few options but I haven't read much feedback. Signal Auto, Zeal Motorsports, fly that guy from Texas, ship your car to Japan. Can anyone post results from other shops and approximately how much?
03-18-04, 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Mr rx-7 tt
...I spent over two hours on the phone one day with Corky Bell go over the efficiency, construction, psi loss etc. of that unit. Corky said that IC was over 88% efficient, which you only see on race cars. Corky also stated the IC was good for 440-450 rwhp all day long. (continuious use). He said it was a fantastic IC.
...I spent over two hours on the phone one day with Corky Bell go over the efficiency, construction, psi loss etc. of that unit. Corky said that IC was over 88% efficient, which you only see on race cars. Corky also stated the IC was good for 440-450 rwhp all day long. (continuious use). He said it was a fantastic IC.
Not to get too far off topic, but did C. Bell have anything to say generally about turbocharging the RX7?
I read his "Maximum Boost" hoping for some specific references. It's a great book everyone interested in artguy's thread should read. But I was a bit disappointed that he would discuss the Mitsu V6 and a Miata kit but never once mentioned the rotary.
Also...This is a noob 3 Gen single turbo/Tuning question, but I've got to ask, in light of the AFR sensor calibration debacle being exposed by this thread:
Can someone tell me why tuning must take place on a dyno and not by a "seat of the pants" datalogit/data acquisition method while out on the street?
Isn't there a way to hook up AFR and EGT sensors, etc. to the car and, ignoring direct horsepower and torque readings, refine the engine's state of tune to achieve power and reliability?
Also, when you are pushing the power envelope into the 400 rwhp realm, isn't it possible that the ambient temp from day to day would require microadjustments to maintain reliability, even with a upgraded intercooler?
Thanks.
03-18-04, 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by fcfdfan
Can someone tell me why tuning must take place on a dyno and not by a "seat of the pants" datalogit/data acquisition method while out on the street?
Isn't there a way to hook up AFR and EGT sensors, etc. to the car and, ignoring direct horsepower and torque readings, refine the engine's state of tune to achieve power and reliability?
Can someone tell me why tuning must take place on a dyno and not by a "seat of the pants" datalogit/data acquisition method while out on the street?
Isn't there a way to hook up AFR and EGT sensors, etc. to the car and, ignoring direct horsepower and torque readings, refine the engine's state of tune to achieve power and reliability?
Originally posted by fcfdfan
Also, when you are pushing the power envelope into the 400 rwhp realm, isn't it possible that the ambient temp from day to day would require microadjustments to maintain reliability, even with a upgraded intercooler?
Thanks.
Also, when you are pushing the power envelope into the 400 rwhp realm, isn't it possible that the ambient temp from day to day would require microadjustments to maintain reliability, even with a upgraded intercooler?
Thanks.
03-18-04, 05:33 PM
#92
XS tuned my car with an ASP Medium. They expressed some reservations about it, and the intake temps were high during the tuning session. I think they were up to 58C before we got my IC fan running, which even then only dropped them to 50C. On the street, my peak temp from 35MB of Datalogit tuning sessions was something like 41C, with an average after warm up of 38C or so across the board (you end up with roughly the same average temps in all the N-P cells because the sensor is slow). The stock air temp sensor is so slow that I don't know how much I trust it, but it is clear that the IC works much better with the car moving than on the dyno even if the numbers are not very accurate.
XS got 368 RWHP with my Medium and instrutctions to tune conservatively. I had a few weird ignition cells (neg split) in vacuum ranges, but the car never detonated with the XS maps they tuned for me. The neg split cells are not something you want in the map, obviously, but they weren't anywhere near the boost cells and I honestly don't think they really hurt anything where they were. The idea that neg split will immediately blow up your motor is false, IMO, though clearly you still don't want any neg split. I think people make too big a deal out of it considering they are no-load vacuum cells. I later messed with the maps and ended up popping my motor, but that was not XS's fault.
I will be tuning my own maps one the street with a wideband and a Datalogit when I get the car back, mainly because I think you can tune better that way if you have the equipment in good running order (real loads, real air flow, real weather variations, part-throttle maps, etc.).
-Max
XS got 368 RWHP with my Medium and instrutctions to tune conservatively. I had a few weird ignition cells (neg split) in vacuum ranges, but the car never detonated with the XS maps they tuned for me. The neg split cells are not something you want in the map, obviously, but they weren't anywhere near the boost cells and I honestly don't think they really hurt anything where they were. The idea that neg split will immediately blow up your motor is false, IMO, though clearly you still don't want any neg split. I think people make too big a deal out of it considering they are no-load vacuum cells. I later messed with the maps and ended up popping my motor, but that was not XS's fault.
I will be tuning my own maps one the street with a wideband and a Datalogit when I get the car back, mainly because I think you can tune better that way if you have the equipment in good running order (real loads, real air flow, real weather variations, part-throttle maps, etc.).
-Max
03-18-04, 06:16 PM
#93
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Originally posted by spyfish007
Now that is funny. Who is that masked man?
Now that is funny. Who is that masked man?
of Gotham. A mild manored mechanic by day and at night he flys down your chimney, gets the tooth from under your pillow and leaves you a dyno chart after he magically tunes your 7! 
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=275979
03-18-04, 07:00 PM
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i agree max, heatsoak is an issue with that IC on the dyno.
the solution is simple. let the car cool off before running it again...not getting an FMIC. I love my m2 large on the street.
Im leaving it at that.
anyhow, I have decided to go against the ball bearing option after speaking with steve kan, BNR Bryan, and Demetrios from Reactive Racing at length about the turbos I had to choose from. I won't have the Rotary Aviation seals until April 17th and will have the car together and dyno tuned with the new single kit from Gotham within days afterward.
I will be sure to update you all as we go. Im really hoping to keep at the very least non sequential low end with the upper gusto of a nice single.
cheers
j
the solution is simple. let the car cool off before running it again...not getting an FMIC. I love my m2 large on the street.
Im leaving it at that.
anyhow, I have decided to go against the ball bearing option after speaking with steve kan, BNR Bryan, and Demetrios from Reactive Racing at length about the turbos I had to choose from. I won't have the Rotary Aviation seals until April 17th and will have the car together and dyno tuned with the new single kit from Gotham within days afterward.
I will be sure to update you all as we go. Im really hoping to keep at the very least non sequential low end with the upper gusto of a nice single.
cheers
j
Last edited by artguy; 03-18-04 at 07:04 PM.
03-19-04, 01:33 PM
#95
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on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
overall, I was happy with the work they did on my car and would recommend so cal people to go to them for tuning
03-19-04, 02:30 PM
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Sorry to hear of all your woes in this saga!
If the M2's check out ok @ BNR, I'd be interested in purchasing the setup.
I have not-so-high h.p. aspirations & am a glutton for punishment
LMK when the results are in & I may be able to ease your financial pain somewhat.
Thx!
If the M2's check out ok @ BNR, I'd be interested in purchasing the setup.
I have not-so-high h.p. aspirations & am a glutton for punishment
LMK when the results are in & I may be able to ease your financial pain somewhat.
Thx!
03-19-04, 03:50 PM
#97
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Originally posted by artguy
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
on a side note, i was hammered for two days that my IC (m2 large) was the cause of me not putting down more horsepower. the tuner at xs told RRR that if I wanted to put down more than 350 rwhp that I would never do it on the m2 large and that I would need one of "their" front mount intercoolers. (apparently they had never seen more than 350-360 on the m2 large because it was quote "too restrictive and prone to heat soak").
Originally posted by maxcooper
XS tuned my car with an ASP Medium. They expressed some reservations about it...
XS tuned my car with an ASP Medium. They expressed some reservations about it...
03-19-04, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by 1FooknTiteFD
XS tuned my car with the PFS large IC (equivalent to the ASP large in size) and yes they did bitch about it a little and suggested a FMIC but they still managed to get the air intake temps down to only 36 degrees while dyno tuning. The car put down 378.9rwhp at 1 bar on 91 octane that day and the car is still running very very strong. The car could have made more power but the boost wasn't staying at 1 bar, it would drop down to .95 or .9 at higher rpms.
overall, I was happy with the work they did on my car and would recommend so cal people to go to them for tuning
XS tuned my car with the PFS large IC (equivalent to the ASP large in size) and yes they did bitch about it a little and suggested a FMIC but they still managed to get the air intake temps down to only 36 degrees while dyno tuning. The car put down 378.9rwhp at 1 bar on 91 octane that day and the car is still running very very strong. The car could have made more power but the boost wasn't staying at 1 bar, it would drop down to .95 or .9 at higher rpms.
overall, I was happy with the work they did on my car and would recommend so cal people to go to them for tuning
It isn't my goal to get people to not use xs. Honestly, it is no matter to me whether you would or not. I am just glad that I don't have to ever deal with them again. people can make their own beds. I did, and now look where I am with it.
For the first time, I feel like I am doing things right. Just a few weeks of waiting on parts and she is going to be screaming down the road.
I wish I could just fast forward through that break-in period on the new motor though..
J
Last edited by artguy; 03-19-04 at 04:16 PM.
03-19-04, 05:53 PM
#100
The idea that the SMIC cooks after 1 minute on a road race course is completely false. Any decent SMIC will have ducting by definition, and ASP ICs do have bad-*** ducting. 
In fact, most of the track guys have SMICs so they don't cook their motors by blocking air flow to the radiator. I don't want to start the old debate, but I do think it is possible to run an FMIC on a road race car now. I'm not sure what changed since the old days when the FMIC cars would boil over after a few laps, but I know people are doing it successfully now. V-mounts look like a pretty killer setup, too.
Now drag racing or autoX? Yes, you might have some heat soak problems with an SMIC.
-Max
In fact, most of the track guys have SMICs so they don't cook their motors by blocking air flow to the radiator. I don't want to start the old debate, but I do think it is possible to run an FMIC on a road race car now. I'm not sure what changed since the old days when the FMIC cars would boil over after a few laps, but I know people are doing it successfully now. V-mounts look like a pretty killer setup, too.Now drag racing or autoX? Yes, you might have some heat soak problems with an SMIC.
-Max