400RWHP on the m2 twins...the saga continues! but not the way i expected (thanks xs)
 

hey all,

after a year and a half of hard research, parts buying and constant wrestling to get it right, my quest for reaching 400 rwhp is over.

The verdict on my car is in. I have my fd down at gotham getting some expert help from steve and ihor and rich. we did water injection and the bushings and a whole bunch of other little stuff. we then took it for tuning on the dyno and did a pull a couple weeks ago. the afr's showed that i was running slightly lean. however, the car only put down 305 at 1 bar. my xs dyno sheets show that they put down around 350 at that same boost when they tuned it a year ago. my butt dyno was aware of the loss of power since then.

my afr's were in the range of 11.5 in a places which is not acceptable considering i specifically asked xs and RRR for 11.2:1 all the way across. after discovering the problem, we took the car back to gotham to have compression checked. we made no adjustments to the maps and left head down. a few days later I got the results. My compression is bad with 4's on both rotors. Thus the loss of horsepower compared to a year ago.

I asked Steve to pull them motor and get me pictures.

All work had been done by rotary reliablity and racing as well as xs engineering on the tuning side up until now. I spoke with Rotary Reliability and racing who took the car to xs themselves to handle it all while i was in massachussettes (tuning and repairs to the wiring harness). They admitted to me that the car left their shop after break in with only 6's for compression (wtf).

The motor is now out and pictures are on their way. They will show up in a complaint thread in the vendors section as well as be accompanied by screenshots of the shoddy afr's which xs had tuned. (negative split in vacuum didnt make me any happier...even if it was in vacuum). Rotary Reliability refused to warrantee the work though they did agree to rebuild at parts cost. considering i'd have to ship...no way no how. the only thing im sending them is pictures of what xs lean fuel tuning did to my now flattened 1300 dollar ceramic ianetti apex seals. steve surmised that they actually tuned the car to about 11.7-12.0 afr's for me to put down 381 with those maps. ARGH.

timing was a mess. (though that is a topic for the vendors section now)

so after three weeks of me figuring out what to do i have decided now that the motor is out, to go single. I am going with the below custom setup being built by steven kan at Gotham.

larger streetport
t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate


I am sending my m2 twins with only 4-5k miles on them to BNR for a full inspection and will be selling them for a fair price. Now that I am not living in cali there is no reason for me to stay with the twins when I can go with a nice single setup (steve is building me a quick spooling small single as i said). I will also be selling my hks downpipe and the new solonoids currently in the car. The m2 twins come with a custom y pipe as well.

At first I was very upset. I had worked so hard and so long just to have my car last a short time because of poor tuning. The car felt like it ran better than it ever had when I got it back from xs last year. I was so happy. I even drove it from mass to minnesota without problem which is a miracle on a near 400hp car. kudos to the work from rrr that got me that far. it is too bad that the dream was short lived.

now that i have made the decision to go single I am very happy with it. the car should be done within the month here and I will be posting the dyno sheets for the quick spooling turbo setup Im going to be running.

Thanks to everyone who helped me along the way. To those who assisted me to get this far I can only say that I appreciate it. To those who I trusted and paid thousands of dollars who are the reason my car is now in pieces...I dont even want to say what I think about you.


I will keep yall informed



Jason

damn thats a bad story for those (not because of, just involving) expensive twins, but no doubt your new setup will be great.

1 stupid question. what's a "V band"?

WOW!!!

so many stories about bad tuning and shops!!!

Artguy, when you say the ceramic seals are flattened do you mean the springs? Or are the seals FUBAR????

my barely driven on 1300 dollar ianettis are now damaged. thankfully they are not broken at all. if they were, my turbos would be shot. I got lucky there....if you can call that lucky.



j

so you were still getting 305 rwhp with 4's all across for compression?!?

no kidding...i didnt sleep for three days or get any work done because of it. it was like being four years old and finding out that xmas wasnt coming this year. i thought i was almost finished with the car. I was doing little shit like painting hubs and fixing rattles. I hadnt even thought about compression.

the vband is like a type of clamp assembly I believe. that isnt a dumb question unless you are a turbo builder.

yes sir...first pull was 305. second was like 290...third was like 280....then we called it a day. heatsoak.


the car ran fine...it was just a bit hard to start. that is all. i attributed that to the ceramics and not to low compression caused by slightly damaged ceramics. the car idled fine as well. it sounded good. it just fell on its face past five k rpms. overall it was down by about fifteen perfent hp over the original dyno pulls xs did last year.

First inclination was that it wasnt a motor prob but a flow prob. the turbos were boosting fine and just as quick as ever. Im going to miss that quick response of seq..but a simple system without all the hassle will make me happier in the long run.

the guys at gotham know exactly how i drive my car and how i want it to perform and are building a setup accordingly.



jason

Jason,

I'm sorry for what you are going through...your in good hands now.

I also am getting a rebuild with ceramics and just have a question...when you say flattened, do you mean the lean conditions caused detontation to flatten the seals, or do you think that the clearancing was off causing abnormal wear on the seals?

This REALLY scares me as I was rebuilding on a similar route and idea.

well, my ceramics are one piece...and the slilght flattening was determined to be caused by too lean fuel maps i was running which xs installed. at 305 i was running lean thru the middle....at 380 id have been very lean.

funny thing is that xs told me thru RRR that i was getting high exhaust gas temps but supposedly they couldnt figure out why. well, ill tell them why. THE THING WAS RUNNING LEAN.

fun stuff


j

dp

I had the same situation, back in 01.

Here was my compression tests:
Front rotor: 5.4 - 5.6 - 5.6
Rear rotor: 4.0 - 3.8 - 3.6

I was making 318 rwhp @ 12 psi on a 60-1 (1.15 AR, "Q" trim). I had many problems up until that point, including a video from ST Louis on the Dyno pinging 3 times. :eek:

I was running a Haltech E6k at the time too. Steve, Cam Worth, Ari, BDC, HWO (what happened to him?)and good ole thong boy :) , and I went through all of the maps. We thought everything was great. Nice and conservative, etc. Well, I believe it was Chris (Mr rx-7 tt) recomended I get a compression check. Sure enough, those were the results.

It made decent power for the horrid compression.

Here is a picture of what mine looked like the following weekend when I said fuck it! Lets have some fun at HP Topeka!

Odd enough, I was able to road race the car all day long. It was the last segment of the day, passing this 1997 Twin Turbo Porsche "S", with 1 or 2 laps left in the time segment, the engine blew. :)

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=damage

I just need to ask you why a peak rwhp # of 400 is so important to you. Is it just to say that your car makes the 400 #? Why break your balls, and spend way more money just to hit that. If you're gonna go single, go big and make some big #'s to brag about. Especially for the money it's gonna cost you to change turbos anyway.

Damn...
 

That's painful. As bad as my 2 Gen megabuck debacle with Tripoint.

I still can't get over how the supposed "top" shops end up doing such sloppy work. There seems to be no conscience or concern for doing a good job. And they don't seem to give a rat's ass about word of mouth. You would think XS and RRR would be smart enough to figure out that if they jacked your car up, there would be a price to pay. But they could care less! It boggles the mind.

I'll be looking for your thread updates.

What was the final court decision between Monsen and Farrell from a while back? Anyone know? Is there justice?

at this point i just want the most reliable 400rwhp car possible. the single setup will do that. the turbo kan is building me is good for about 450rwhp or so at 18psi. i want to run less boost and dont want to deal with any boost issues any more like i did with sequential. when the seq runs great there is nothing better in my book...but recently my new solonoid under the plenum started acting up...just more hassles for me. im going to listen to the big boys and go single.



j

Yummy...62-1 was my previous turbo....made great power at 3500 rpms+(non-BB unit)....You'll be happy with the big single. It's definitely more fun:D

Sorry to hear about it. I was following your progress with the M2s...

do you have dyno sheets for that setup?

i should gain about 400-500 rpms on the dual bb setup as far as response goes....it may end up being very close to the feel of the stockers but with ballz up top.

i saw this today..courtesy of max cooper...this turbo has a nice torque curve...flat as a mofo http://www.kgparts.com/R85.htm


j

ouch. . . what a hard saga ending. . . i was soo looking forward to seeing what those things made. . . as far as the twins go. . . i might have a buddy that will buy them. . . given theyre in good shape.

paul

me too man...me too.


I am going to have them inspected and price them accordingly. I put about 4-5k on them (1200 break in and about 2k highway miles) so there is really only about 1500 miles on them zipping around town. i do know they did not leak one bit and that they spool faster than any others. they still spin with a light breath blowing on them. we shall see. I will put em up for sale after i get bnr to inspect and give me an estimate on what they should be worth.

Hello Jason,
I know it has been a while since we last spoke but I have dropped in from time to time on this board to see how you were doing with the M2/GCG twin set up. Sorry to hear that once again someone was not treated correctly with regards to their car and engine work. I know you worked hard at making the power on those twins with the fantastic boost response down low.

I wish you well with your single set up( I am partial to the GT35/40 .82 A/R with your HP goals). I am looking at getting back into the 3rd gen RX-7 madness myself, but with the LS1 for my 450WHP motivation. Sacreligeous I know. But reliable.:) Good luck Jason and keep us informed of your single turbo beast once you have completed it.

Brett.

"t62-1 dual ball bearing (should put down 400rwhp at 14psi and full boost by 3000-3300rpm)
1.0 exhaust AR
3.5 inch vband
3.5 inch downpipe
hks manifold
hks wastegate"

How much?

Glad to hear Gotham is takin care of ya. I think it may be a jump to go to the 62-1 from the M2's. You should look at their GT40R instead (full ball bearing). I have been trying to figure out ways to keep the twins but if it's gunna cost me another set of o-rings, i'll go single.

good to see you here brett. the car was a blast while she ran great. it has been a learning experience...and a costly one at that.

are you still at vishnu?

naah..its not sacreligious...i wish someone i knew and trusted would run it so i could hear how the v8 setup actually performs...instead of just hearing hate and hype.

you were a big help in me learning all this stuff. thanks.

you should call down to gotham ( www.gothamracing.com ) and ask for steve. I think this setup will be the closest setup to having low end response and strong hard pull up top (compared to the twins). it is realistic that 14psi could be there by 3k. we shall see. bill i know you and i have the same needs as far as drivability...i will let you know as soon as i see anything concrete.



j