"In 1988 all major Japaneese car manuf's signed an agreement that said that neither of them was going to import a sports car over 276HP. Mazda stayed true to that agreement where Mitsu,Toyota and Nissan did not. When word got out in 1990 that Nissan put out the Z at 300HP and the NEXT Supra was rated at 320HP,Mazda said #$%# it and blasted the engine. The RX-7 was originaly meant to have 276 RWHP(Rear wheel HP)which would be about 310 Flywheel HP. Fly wheel HP is the number you always see. Mazda was screwed,Toyota Mitsu and Nissan lied and said that their cars are holding true to the agreement. Bullshit,but it worked. Mazda decreased the engine output to 255 HP.Nobody could believe that the RX-7 could push 4.8 with 255 HP. And the truth is it can't beause Mazda was smart and they gave the 255 HP to be as RWHP,where in truth it really does 276 Flywheel and still stays true to the signed paper. When my 7 was stock I did dyno testing and track testing. Dyno said 280HP on the Flywheel."

That is a quote from the 3rd Gen RX-7 page at Ultimatecarpage.com. I don't know if you guys already know this or have ever heard of it because I've never seen anyone mention it on the forum but if you haven't i thought I would bring it to your attention. I don't even know if this is true anyway. I guess this would also mean that the J-spec turbos rated at 280hp would only be 4 hp more powerful than the 93 ones

 

interesting, never knew this.

 

must be bs
i can see any other way. i have only seen dyno info on stock 7's that would discount this. but hey, what do i know.....

 

The one thing Mazda has always worked on is horsepower to weight ratio. Our engineers sweated the details. We are the proud recipients of their work.

Note the drilled pedals, lightweight seat pans, thin sheet metal, squeeze cast stock wheels, etc. Probably another 100 "small" things that add up to huge weight savings.

Can you say "Kansei Engineering?". BRILLIANT!

Even to this day...and imagine this all happened almost 15 years ago. I am still in awe when I see all the crap that is being passed off these days as "sports" cars.

 

Please let the new RX-7 be 100x better than the old...

 

what did the last 2 posts have to do with anything on this thread lol?

 

Nothing, but good stuff none the less.

Anyone else have stock dyno numbers?

 

i always thought the rx7 dynoed around 215whp which is about right for 255hp and 15% drivetrain loss

 

I could be wrong on this.. But this was called the "Gentlemen's Agreement".. Just as stated earlier, It was an agreement between companies to avoid Horsepower War..

I know other companies have sold cars in US with higher than 276.. but I heard that the same cars that were sold here were rated at 276 or below in Japan.. But abviously, thats what I heard and not sure about the actual fact. The first company to break this I heard will be Honda.. with either S2000R or NSX in 2005.

Also, I read somewhere that when the engine reaches 50,000 km, the engine must be replaced.. I think it was to reduce number of cars in Japan or pollution or something.. I read that somewhere but once again not sure about the accuracy of the info..

 

Every stock dyno test I've ever seen indicates abot 224-5 rwhp, which would coincide perfectly with 255 flywheel hp assuming a 15% drivetrain loss. I think it's BS.

 

Herblenny- you are right about Japanese engines being replaced at 50km. Thats why there is such an abundance of JDM engines for Honda's and pretty much any other JDM car.

 

*Coming out of lurking mode*

The J-Spec Supras do make 280 HP, the others (300zx and GTO) make 300, 320 respectively. The US-Spec Supras make 320 hp through the use of diff turbo internals and a bump in boost.

Mazda RX7, Honda NSX and Toyota Supra adhired to the agreement by making a claimed 280 hp, Nissan and Mitsubishi did not (Though the last year 300ZX did make 280 hp due to the loss of their variable valve timing).

Toyota saw that Nissan and Mitsubishi weren't playing along so they bumped up the hp to compete.

This was one of the few cases where the US market got the more desirable engine and not the de-tuned version. (Recently it's been the Subaru STi's 300 hp to the J-spec's 280).

That was info i'd learned over the years reading and talking to owners. If anyone has info to dispute this, feel free to correct me

*Back in to the crowd*

 

It was actually more then just to prevent a horsepower war. In the early years of Japanese automaking it was to keep any one company from overpowering the Japanese auto market. The concept dates further back then the 80's...it goes all the way back to the 60's and 70's.

The Gentlemans Agreement or Gentlemens Accord is based of the Keiretsu concept. Do a search on www.yahoo.com for the word KEIRETSU (post-WW2) or ZAIBATSU (pre-WW2).

 

Absolutely untrue. Though japanese tuning houses do recommend that the 13b-rew should be overhauled at the 100,000km mark (probably as much for their own benefit though).


As for the gentlemans' agreement - it's a handshake deal that has been continuously preached, but consistantly broken. 'On paper' the 280 claims have been kept.

a japanese car magazine independantly dyno tested the top cars and extrapolated the following data:

99 fd3s rx7: 313.5ps

supra rz: 320ps (later vvt-i engine = 350ps)

evo vii: 305.5ps

02 sti RA spec: 301ps

see above (makes more sense now, doesn't it?).

 

These "agreements" between manufacturers are usually meant to SCREW someone.

A very similar agreement was made by the top brass at Bombardier (Seadoo), Kawasaki, and Yamaha in the mid '90s regarding limiting the top speed of personal watercraft. It was agreed that no one would make a craft capable of 60+ mph speeds.
The ink was barely dry before both Yamaha and Kawasaki had models out that exceeded the 60 mph agreement. Seadoo officials were LIVID to say the least, but for a couple of years adhered to the agreement thinking that liability lawsuits would undo the other two. When that didn't happen, Seadoo pushed ahead with their own higher horsepower/higher speed machines. In the meantime they lost a HELL of a lot of market share, as they were seen as "weak" or "slow" or "not meeting the demands of the public".
It is all a pretty cutthroat world.

 

have you ever seen the rew insides at 100,000km's? an 84-85 gsl-se looks better inside at 400,000+kms

mike

 

Actually it's true. Maybe not for RX7's but for all piston driven cars it is.

 

Yes, the agreements usually end up screwing somebody over. A lot of times though it is the manufacturers themselves. It is widely know that the Japanese automakers Keiretsu concept is flawed. It is true that if the K-concept is strictly followed that no one automaker will overpower any other automaker.

The major flaw to that is if any outside automaker (German or American) makes and advertises cars which are better then the Japanese cars which are made under the K-concept, then ultimately the Japanese car aompanies are getting screwed over. Why would you want to buy a 98 Supra TT for ~$50K or 98 NSX for ~$90K when you could get a Corvette or Viper for roughly the same price BUT with lots more power?

 

"Actually it's true. Maybe not for RX7's but for all piston driven cars it is"

nope - absolutely 100% untrue.

And just to make sure my sanity was intact, I asked the japanese person next to me. They were quite amused by the concept. sorry.

I've bought two 'piston' cars (a miata and a skyline) in japan and both were over 50,000km (the miata was over 150,000km). Both had the original engine.

 

Very interesting.. This is the reason, why sometimes you just can't trust what you read on the internet..

Like I said on my post, I wasn't sure about if this 50K km thing was true or not.. But I guess if someone in Japan says its not then I guess its not.. hmm.. interesting..