10-5-5 boost pattern
08-10-07, 12:31 AM
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similar problem
hey man,
i know im new to this 3rd gen forum but i had the EXACT same problem, strong boost till like 4500 then drop, 5-6 psi, serious lack of power. i thought i needed to rebuild my turbo (2nd) but then i was poking around here and i found this site, u've probably seen it but just incase.. http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-7/rx7stuff.htm
anyways i found my problem right after i read ur thread here. it was the pressure chamber's vacuum line to the turbo, (http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-7/EngineView01.jpg) its the hose closest to the front of the car. that line, it has a check valve, take it off and make sure its only going one way, mine was broken right apart, luckily i had a spare on from the intake manifold of my 88 sittin on the floor in the garage. i swapped it for the new one, boom 10-8-10 just like that, big differance, my car has been running 10-5-5 since i bought it (2 months ago). uve probably already checked that and it might be somehting else but i just hope maybe its something stupid small like that for you. dont give up man just keep searching, its gotta be something other then no good 2nd turbo, cuz its the EXACT symptoms i was having. anyways good luck man.
i know im new to this 3rd gen forum but i had the EXACT same problem, strong boost till like 4500 then drop, 5-6 psi, serious lack of power. i thought i needed to rebuild my turbo (2nd) but then i was poking around here and i found this site, u've probably seen it but just incase.. http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-7/rx7stuff.htm
anyways i found my problem right after i read ur thread here. it was the pressure chamber's vacuum line to the turbo, (http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-7/EngineView01.jpg) its the hose closest to the front of the car. that line, it has a check valve, take it off and make sure its only going one way, mine was broken right apart, luckily i had a spare on from the intake manifold of my 88 sittin on the floor in the garage. i swapped it for the new one, boom 10-8-10 just like that, big differance, my car has been running 10-5-5 since i bought it (2 months ago). uve probably already checked that and it might be somehting else but i just hope maybe its something stupid small like that for you. dont give up man just keep searching, its gotta be something other then no good 2nd turbo, cuz its the EXACT symptoms i was having. anyways good luck man.
08-11-07, 02:36 PM
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Update 3
Well, I got things together and got the car started up. Noticed that I had a bit of boost at WOT in neutral (WOO HOO!!).
Took the car down the street and did a boost test. Ended up running well as before, but the boost pattern is still 10-5-5, no change. After pulling back in, noticed some steam and found a small hose from the turbo hissing past. Decided not to take it on vacation, so I left it home and got the turbo cooling hoses from Malloy when I drove past there.
Whatever is not working must still be in the rat's nest or electrical, anybody else have any thoughts?
Tim
Well, I got things together and got the car started up. Noticed that I had a bit of boost at WOT in neutral (WOO HOO!!).
Took the car down the street and did a boost test. Ended up running well as before, but the boost pattern is still 10-5-5, no change. After pulling back in, noticed some steam and found a small hose from the turbo hissing past. Decided not to take it on vacation, so I left it home and got the turbo cooling hoses from Malloy when I drove past there.
Whatever is not working must still be in the rat's nest or electrical, anybody else have any thoughts?
Tim
08-12-07, 12:49 PM
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this may sound dumb but
Let me clarify this
from looking at the car hood on
THe primary turbo is at the back closest to the firewall? and the secondary is closest to the front of the car?
http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-...BigPicture.htm
from looking at that diagram this is what i read/....?
Let me clarify this
from looking at the car hood on
THe primary turbo is at the back closest to the firewall? and the secondary is closest to the front of the car?
http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-...BigPicture.htm
from looking at that diagram this is what i read/....?
08-13-07, 08:31 AM
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this may sound dumb but
Let me clarify this
from looking at the car hood on
THe primary turbo is at the back closest to the firewall? and the secondary is closest to the front of the car?
http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-...BigPicture.htm
from looking at that diagram this is what i read/....?
Let me clarify this
from looking at the car hood on
THe primary turbo is at the back closest to the firewall? and the secondary is closest to the front of the car?
http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-...BigPicture.htm
from looking at that diagram this is what i read/....?
My car will boost normally from 2500rpm to 4250rpm (mine is an automatic, not 5 speed). Then, boost drops to 3-5psi and back up to 5 until redline.
There is a large boost drop at transition, which leads me to believe that either the Charge Relief Valve is still open at transition, leaving the boost pressure out, or the Wastegate opens up, losing exhaust pressure to the turbos, or the Air Bypass Valve is opening up dropping all boost from both turbos.
I am going to double check the vacuum routing that I hooked up. I may have something backwards when installing.
Tim
08-15-07, 05:44 PM
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Are you saying to remove and plug the control vacum hose to the CRV that causes it to open? Or are you saying to remove the hose from the CRV to the air filter top so I can hear it open up while running?
My problem will be the chicken and the egg story, which came first. Does the flap open before the CRV closes or not? How can I determine this while running a boost test?
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Blow Off Valve should not open until just after the second turbo kicks in and boost pressure reaches 10psi. Is this correct? It does not operate when just the first turbo is on because the excess boost is controlled by the Turbo Pre Control Actuator. Is this a correct statement?
Let me know. In the meantime, I have to change out the two small turbo coolant hoses. After reassembling and testing once, I noticed the one leaking and hissing. Better change them now (should have changed them before reinstalling, but too late now).
Thanks,
Tim
08-15-07, 06:19 PM
#33
When the flap (CCV) is closed and the secondary turbo is in pre-spool, the CRV is open. It is the relief valve, so to speak, while the secondary turbo is spooling up.
The BOV opens any time you have boosted and suddenly let off the throttle. It releases back pressure in the intake when your butterflies suddenly close on the throttle body [e.g., when you let off the throttle at each shift]. That's why it is called the blow-off valve--it vents unused boost out of the intake.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Blow Off Valve should not open until just after the second turbo kicks in and boost pressure reaches 10psi.
Last edited by jd to rescue; 08-15-07 at 06:29 PM.
08-15-07, 11:34 PM
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[QUOTE=jd to rescue;7239211]When the flap (CCV) is closed and the secondary turbo is in pre-spool, the CRV is open. It is the relief valve, so to speak, while the secondary turbo is spooling up.
jd,
I understand the functions, what I am looking for is the logical progression of the timings, in other words, the ladder logic of the ECU. Which function comes first during the transition when the flap opens and the CRV closes?
Does the computer say: Open the flap, then close the CRV, Open the flap AND close the CRV at the same time, or Close the CRV, then open the flap? Not only do I need to understand these two components, but all components during this timeframe and where they lie in the ladder logic of the ECU. In other words, what event comes first, second, third, etc based on the computer programming?
Each example above may be only miliseconds apart in the computer, but make a difference in how to determine what the problem is. By understanding the logic behind this, I can make rational determinations of the problem by stating yes or no to the logical facts of progression. (If A= True, then B=X, otherwise B=Y etc)
Also, if I am not mistaken, the CRV should maintain 10psi boost with the flap closed, so it is acting as a Blow Off valve for the 2nd turbo until it comes online.
My second quote I got wrong: "Correct me if I am wrong, but the Blow Off Valve should not open until just after the second turbo kicks in and boost pressure reaches 10psi. " What I meant to refer to was the Wastegate, not the Blow off Valve. If I understand correctly, the wastegate does not come into play until after transition. This is due to the fact that the Turbo PreControl acts as the wastegate control for the primary turbo until about 4500rpm's by diverting flow from the primary turbo to the secondary turbo prespool instead of out the exhaust. Only after reaching this plateau should the wastegate come into play. Again, I am asking this as a question, not as a fact. This is just my understanding of the logic of the turbos.
Tim
jd,
I understand the functions, what I am looking for is the logical progression of the timings, in other words, the ladder logic of the ECU. Which function comes first during the transition when the flap opens and the CRV closes?
Does the computer say: Open the flap, then close the CRV, Open the flap AND close the CRV at the same time, or Close the CRV, then open the flap? Not only do I need to understand these two components, but all components during this timeframe and where they lie in the ladder logic of the ECU. In other words, what event comes first, second, third, etc based on the computer programming?
Each example above may be only miliseconds apart in the computer, but make a difference in how to determine what the problem is. By understanding the logic behind this, I can make rational determinations of the problem by stating yes or no to the logical facts of progression. (If A= True, then B=X, otherwise B=Y etc)
Also, if I am not mistaken, the CRV should maintain 10psi boost with the flap closed, so it is acting as a Blow Off valve for the 2nd turbo until it comes online.
My second quote I got wrong: "Correct me if I am wrong, but the Blow Off Valve should not open until just after the second turbo kicks in and boost pressure reaches 10psi. " What I meant to refer to was the Wastegate, not the Blow off Valve. If I understand correctly, the wastegate does not come into play until after transition. This is due to the fact that the Turbo PreControl acts as the wastegate control for the primary turbo until about 4500rpm's by diverting flow from the primary turbo to the secondary turbo prespool instead of out the exhaust. Only after reaching this plateau should the wastegate come into play. Again, I am asking this as a question, not as a fact. This is just my understanding of the logic of the turbos.
Tim
08-16-07, 06:52 AM
#36
I've asked about the wg/pc interaction during primary boost before. The answer I got at the time was that both were active during primary boost.
I've searched for more detail on the logic of the CRV also. I have not yet found any. The FSM is vague and nonspecific, and the service highlights manual adds nothing to the puzzle.
Dave
I've searched for more detail on the logic of the CRV also. I have not yet found any. The FSM is vague and nonspecific, and the service highlights manual adds nothing to the puzzle.
Dave
08-16-07, 04:40 PM
#37
Does the computer say: Open the flap, then close the CRV, Open the flap AND close the CRV at the same time, or Close the CRV, then open the flap? Not only do I need to understand these two components, but all components during this timeframe and where they lie in the ladder logic of the ECU. In other words, what event comes first, second, third, etc based on the computer programming?
09-03-07, 11:38 PM
#38
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i read that a failed double throttle vacuum solenoid causes this exact problem. try bypassing the solenoid by removing and plugging the vacuum line going to it.
01-30-08, 12:18 PM
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OK, TIME FOR THE UPDATE!!!!
I finally got around to installing new silicone vacuum hoses. I meticulously followed the diagram and bench installed a complete replacement rat's nest (I bought a spare frame and solenoids quite some time ago for this specific reason. I measured every hose and double checked every connection with the diagram. I had one heck of a time when it came to removing and installing some of the hoses still on the car (lower intake, oil injectors, etc), but got them all done. I replaced all of the check valves with new viton check valves.
I changed out the pressure chamber with a spare and the small chamber for the A/T as it broke a nipple upon removal. My vacuum chamber was repaired previously by me when I found a broken nipple. I melted in a metal nipple and epoxy sealed it in place. Vacuum tested the chamber afterward and in good condition.
The only hoses that I did not replace were the ones connecting from the oil filler neck to the PCV valve and back as oil will disintegrate the silicone hose. These hoses are "loose" fit, so this may be part of my problem, but I doubt it.
Now, the car starts right up and runs. In neutral, when I ease on the throttle, I can get the RPM's to climb upwards of 6,000 rpm without any hesitation, but when I step on the throttle, it starts to boost and break up (again in neutral). I am getting about 5psi boost in neutral.
I took it down the road and it seems that everytime I would try to accellerate, it would start to boost, the engine seems to come to a brick wall, then it would start to buck and hesitate. Sometimes this is before it hits 5psi, sometimes just after. It is bucking as if it is cyclic, like the computer retards something, then tries again only to fall flat on it's face again.
I changed out the ECU and had the same problem, no check engine light codes.
Under light throttle, the car appears to drive perfectly fine, but as soon as some demand hits for the engine, boost starts up and the engine starts bucking. When it was bucking, sometimes I would note that the boost gage going from 5psi to 7psi, then back down to 5psi. Rear tubo looks like brand new, front turbo looks very clean and good. No endplay issues.
Here's my questions:
Do you still think it is a vacuum hose/boost problem? I double and tripple checked everything before finishing the install. Took my time and zip-tied almost every hose. All solenoids are tested in working order and were different ones compared to the original set.
Could it be the secondary injectors? Since the car seems to run fine under light throttle, when do the secondary injectors start to kick in? It hesitates and spits under no load in neutral when throttle is applied quickly. Remember, this is a JDM motor that probably did sit for some time before installing. Another thing is the gas tank was cruddy and I cleaned it out. I did install a new filter in the original position and temporarily installed a second filter just off the fuel pump to catch any crud from the tank for the first 1000 miles I drove it. When I removed it, I did not get any dirt back flowing out of the second filter. Also, just before doing the vacuum hoses, the last drive I took, I could barely touch the throttle or it would buck and hesitate. I drove it home from work around 45mph with the boost gage hardly going over -10 to 0psi.
I know it is not the fuel pump or relay (walboro installed new and noisy, so I can hear it running constantly).
Could it be the wiring harness? The outside plastic on many of the connectors near the front of the motor were hard and brittle, but the wiring inside was fine. Rear wires and solenoid wires were soft. I rewrapped it with electrical tape.
I finally got around to installing new silicone vacuum hoses. I meticulously followed the diagram and bench installed a complete replacement rat's nest (I bought a spare frame and solenoids quite some time ago for this specific reason. I measured every hose and double checked every connection with the diagram. I had one heck of a time when it came to removing and installing some of the hoses still on the car (lower intake, oil injectors, etc), but got them all done. I replaced all of the check valves with new viton check valves.
I changed out the pressure chamber with a spare and the small chamber for the A/T as it broke a nipple upon removal. My vacuum chamber was repaired previously by me when I found a broken nipple. I melted in a metal nipple and epoxy sealed it in place. Vacuum tested the chamber afterward and in good condition.
The only hoses that I did not replace were the ones connecting from the oil filler neck to the PCV valve and back as oil will disintegrate the silicone hose. These hoses are "loose" fit, so this may be part of my problem, but I doubt it.
Now, the car starts right up and runs. In neutral, when I ease on the throttle, I can get the RPM's to climb upwards of 6,000 rpm without any hesitation, but when I step on the throttle, it starts to boost and break up (again in neutral). I am getting about 5psi boost in neutral.
I took it down the road and it seems that everytime I would try to accellerate, it would start to boost, the engine seems to come to a brick wall, then it would start to buck and hesitate. Sometimes this is before it hits 5psi, sometimes just after. It is bucking as if it is cyclic, like the computer retards something, then tries again only to fall flat on it's face again.
I changed out the ECU and had the same problem, no check engine light codes.
Under light throttle, the car appears to drive perfectly fine, but as soon as some demand hits for the engine, boost starts up and the engine starts bucking. When it was bucking, sometimes I would note that the boost gage going from 5psi to 7psi, then back down to 5psi. Rear tubo looks like brand new, front turbo looks very clean and good. No endplay issues.
Here's my questions:
Do you still think it is a vacuum hose/boost problem? I double and tripple checked everything before finishing the install. Took my time and zip-tied almost every hose. All solenoids are tested in working order and were different ones compared to the original set.
Could it be the secondary injectors? Since the car seems to run fine under light throttle, when do the secondary injectors start to kick in? It hesitates and spits under no load in neutral when throttle is applied quickly. Remember, this is a JDM motor that probably did sit for some time before installing. Another thing is the gas tank was cruddy and I cleaned it out. I did install a new filter in the original position and temporarily installed a second filter just off the fuel pump to catch any crud from the tank for the first 1000 miles I drove it. When I removed it, I did not get any dirt back flowing out of the second filter. Also, just before doing the vacuum hoses, the last drive I took, I could barely touch the throttle or it would buck and hesitate. I drove it home from work around 45mph with the boost gage hardly going over -10 to 0psi.
I know it is not the fuel pump or relay (walboro installed new and noisy, so I can hear it running constantly).
Could it be the wiring harness? The outside plastic on many of the connectors near the front of the motor were hard and brittle, but the wiring inside was fine. Rear wires and solenoid wires were soft. I rewrapped it with electrical tape.
01-30-08, 07:24 PM
#40
It could definitely be the injectors. I had the same problem after doing a slow, tedious hose job on my car. My mistake was having them cleaned by a shop that didn't have a side feed setup to validate the results. I figured cleaner is better in any case. Wrong.
I swapped in a set freshly done by RC and the car ran just fine. Be careful - bucking under boost is not a good thing to experiment with. If you can borrow a wideband that would be worthwhile.
Dave
I swapped in a set freshly done by RC and the car ran just fine. Be careful - bucking under boost is not a good thing to experiment with. If you can borrow a wideband that would be worthwhile.
Dave
01-30-08, 11:13 PM
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What about using Injector Rehab for the service? Has anyone tried them? Good or bad? The price is right. I can get all four cleaned and checked for $16 each or $64 for all four. If I go with RC Engineering, they want $114, plus they are on the other coast.
Let me know what you think.
Tim
PS Dave, thanks for the advice!!!
Let me know what you think.
Tim
PS Dave, thanks for the advice!!!
01-31-08, 02:30 AM
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Tim McCreary
I have a similar boost pattern on my JDM car (5 speed though). however, I do get +4 psi in neutral but my turbo control actuator doesnt pass KOKO test. It opens slowly when i rev the car, i think only pressure actuates it becase i removed the vac line and there was no vacuum in it when i reved. It continued to move with the same speed like nothing changed. I have to get to the rets nest yet.
precontrol actuator is not moving at all. i read you did some WOT in neutral tests and observed actuators below. which of them were moving during wot in neutral?
I have a similar boost pattern on my JDM car (5 speed though). however, I do get +4 psi in neutral but my turbo control actuator doesnt pass KOKO test. It opens slowly when i rev the car, i think only pressure actuates it becase i removed the vac line and there was no vacuum in it when i reved. It continued to move with the same speed like nothing changed. I have to get to the rets nest yet.
precontrol actuator is not moving at all. i read you did some WOT in neutral tests and observed actuators below. which of them were moving during wot in neutral?
01-31-08, 09:40 AM
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Tim McCreary
I have a similar boost pattern on my JDM car (5 speed though). however, I do get +4 psi in neutral but my turbo control actuator doesnt pass KOKO test. It opens slowly when i rev the car, i think only pressure actuates it becase i removed the vac line and there was no vacuum in it when i reved. It continued to move with the same speed like nothing changed. I have to get to the rets nest yet.
precontrol actuator is not moving at all. i read you did some WOT in neutral tests and observed actuators below. which of them were moving during wot in neutral?
I have a similar boost pattern on my JDM car (5 speed though). however, I do get +4 psi in neutral but my turbo control actuator doesnt pass KOKO test. It opens slowly when i rev the car, i think only pressure actuates it becase i removed the vac line and there was no vacuum in it when i reved. It continued to move with the same speed like nothing changed. I have to get to the rets nest yet.
precontrol actuator is not moving at all. i read you did some WOT in neutral tests and observed actuators below. which of them were moving during wot in neutral?
I am leaning towards fuel injectors because I bench tested and replaced all of the solenoids involved prior to changing out the hoses and had the same results.
Thanks,
Tim
02-13-08, 06:34 AM
#45
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What about using Injector Rehab for the service? Has anyone tried them? Good or bad? The price is right. I can get all four cleaned and checked for $16 each or $64 for all four. If I go with RC Engineering, they want $114, plus they are on the other coast.
Let me know what you think.
Tim
PS Dave, thanks for the advice!!!
Let me know what you think.
Tim
PS Dave, thanks for the advice!!!
https://www.rx7club.com/group-buy-center-69/%7E%2A%7Efuel-injector-cleaning-special-rx7club-members%7E%2A%7E-700925/
02-13-08, 08:55 AM
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ok i went through this myself and i'm new too. if you dont get 4 psi in neutral follow procedures indicated on this page for primary turbo: http://www.autosportracetech.com/RX-...leshooting.htm
BUT as i read your post it seems the car is boosting in gear. first of all do a KOKO test and then check pressure and vacuum chambers. both procedures indicated in link above. they should have a pshhh sound when you unplug hoses from them. If not, first of all check pressure chambers one way check valve (had the same problem with my car it was not flowing the right direction) it must flow towords chamber. then swap wastegate and turbo precontrol solenoid connectors. they are below pressure chamber.
BUT as i read your post it seems the car is boosting in gear. first of all do a KOKO test and then check pressure and vacuum chambers. both procedures indicated in link above. they should have a pshhh sound when you unplug hoses from them. If not, first of all check pressure chambers one way check valve (had the same problem with my car it was not flowing the right direction) it must flow towords chamber. then swap wastegate and turbo precontrol solenoid connectors. they are below pressure chamber.
02-13-08, 10:28 AM
#47
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Tim,
I also don't get 4 psi WOT no load. Out of all the changes you made where do you think the leak was? In the rat's nest? I bought the fighter's garage tester to see. However, I get a full 10-9-10 boost pattern.
I also don't get 4 psi WOT no load. Out of all the changes you made where do you think the leak was? In the rat's nest? I bought the fighter's garage tester to see. However, I get a full 10-9-10 boost pattern.
02-13-08, 04:06 PM
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I believe the no-load WOT problem was with vacuum hoses and the vacuum chamber in the front. When removing the vacuum hoses, I was amazed by how many of them were loose and many of them would break when removed.
Also, my car is an automatic and the chamber just below the throttlebody was bad as the nipple broke off when removing the hose.
I checked all things compared to the troubleshooting, but I believe it to be an issue outside of the vacuum system now. Since hesitation appears at idle, it has to be related to the boost sensor, injectors, or wiring in my opinion. Also, the fact that the boost problem remains the same after changing out the hoses indicates the hoses were not the issue. I am 99% certain that the hoses are correct as I measured, documented and cut hoses one at a time and bench installed before installing on the car.
I will be removing the injectors and sending them out the first chance that I get. I will follow up after reinstalling. Another thing is that after setting some time now, a cloud of white smoke appears at startup, but dissapears at warmup. My previous car did the same thing and when I sold the motor (streetported KDR), the new owner pointed out the injectors were leaking causing the hesitation and some boost issues.
Thanks,
Tim
Also, my car is an automatic and the chamber just below the throttlebody was bad as the nipple broke off when removing the hose.
I checked all things compared to the troubleshooting, but I believe it to be an issue outside of the vacuum system now. Since hesitation appears at idle, it has to be related to the boost sensor, injectors, or wiring in my opinion. Also, the fact that the boost problem remains the same after changing out the hoses indicates the hoses were not the issue. I am 99% certain that the hoses are correct as I measured, documented and cut hoses one at a time and bench installed before installing on the car.
I will be removing the injectors and sending them out the first chance that I get. I will follow up after reinstalling. Another thing is that after setting some time now, a cloud of white smoke appears at startup, but dissapears at warmup. My previous car did the same thing and when I sold the motor (streetported KDR), the new owner pointed out the injectors were leaking causing the hesitation and some boost issues.
Thanks,
Tim
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