The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
02-15-13, 09:26 AM
#176
By then the car will be dead on arrival. All the real rx7 lovers will be old and driving sedans. Mazda cheats its base and doesn't respect them. Over priced parts and delays with production of its flagship vehicle doesn't say much for the company. Making cheaper parts and parts readily available would help Mazda economically. If you could buy housing at 200 or less you would buy many. Rebuild kits under 300 bucks, you would buy many. The cost of two rotor housings buys a full piston engine. That's ridiculous and shameful. I love my cars but I think the people that own rx7s want the car more than Mazda does. The don't even host sevenstock anymore. The public does more r&d than the company and how sad is that?
02-15-13, 09:32 AM
#177
Sorry for going off but what I meant to say was they need to put a three rotor on the new rx7 to actually compete with muscle cars. Corvette, Porsche, Nissan don't limit horse power and fuel economy is decent but not spectacular. It's a sportscars for goodness sake so produce one. 200-300 hp vehicles which will only be modified by owners to make REAL power later? You hear people tweaking piston engines with after market parts to increase power a little or optional engines are offered. Mazda doesn't afford that. I feel about Mazda the same I feel for lane kiffin. Fight on Trojans !!!
02-15-13, 10:32 AM
#179
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By then the car will be dead on arrival. All the real rx7 lovers will be old and driving sedans. Mazda cheats its base and doesn't respect them. Over priced parts and delays with production of its flagship vehicle doesn't say much for the company. Making cheaper parts and parts readily available would help Mazda economically. If you could buy housing at 200 or less you would buy many. Rebuild kits under 300 bucks, you would buy many. The cost of two rotor housings buys a full piston engine. That's ridiculous and shameful. I love my cars but I think the people that own rx7s want the car more than Mazda does. The don't even host sevenstock anymore. The public does more r&d than the company and how sad is that?
Sorry for going off but what I meant to say was they need to put a three rotor on the new rx7 to actually compete with muscle cars. Corvette, Porsche, Nissan don't limit horse power and fuel economy is decent but not spectacular. It's a sportscars for goodness sake so produce one. 200-300 hp vehicles which will only be modified by owners to make REAL power later? You hear people tweaking piston engines with after market parts to increase power a little or optional engines are offered. Mazda doesn't afford that. I feel about Mazda the same I feel for lane kiffin. Fight on Trojans !!!
The same reason your kid is made of fun of for wearing yesterdays clothes BUT that doesn't mean that todays kids have an eye for design which to me only comes with time or if you're lucky you're born with it and design cars for a living and are frustrated when the marketing company makes you design contemporary designs LOL. The reason the FD was such a beautiful success is the car had HUGE commitment and they didn't give a **** about what was being made they just had a vision for what they wanted to make and it's doubtful they can do it again but I have my fingers crossed. However mazda may not be in business in 5 years if they keep trying to compete with Honda, Ford, Chevy, Dodge etc...... They should compete with Porsche and build a super cool miata that's equal to or better than the boxster for 10k less, a super cool RX7 that's equal to the 911 for 20k less and a light weight sporty sedan that embarrasses the hell out of all the heavy weight high powered pigs rolling around.
02-15-13, 10:45 AM
#180
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Fritz... Yeah, buddy... and amxone. Stick an NA 350 whp 3 rotor in a 2600 pound car with at least one seat with a body design that's pininfarina and not yokohama. (Just re-emphasizing Fritz' point about the BRZ class origami-style entries not having legs.) The 1967 Ferrari Dino is still a gorgeous car today. A 599 Fiorano looked boring when it came out and will look worse in 10 years. Creases and knife-edges only look good on pants and, well, knives. Curves that look like a dreamy girls **** and *** will always look good. (My apologies to the female FD owners, but it is the best way to say what's what. 
)
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02-15-13, 01:13 PM
#182
The BRZ will be a moderate success because it's a cool little car but it will never be what I'd consider a fast car even with a turbo and the looks are a little too contemporary; raised fenders, flat edge fenders, sharp lines, high trunk line etc..... That copy cat stuff doesn't stand the test of time so I don't see this car looking interesting in 10 years. In my book a used s2k makes a lot more sense because it's a more economical faster better looking car. If the BRZ had another 100 HP it would be a very popular car and that's what Mazda needs to make. A 300 plus HP 2600 or 2700 pound all motor car otherwise it will be a fail in my book.
They should compete with Porsche and build a super cool miata that's equal to or better than the boxster for 10k less, a super cool RX7 that's equal to the 911 for 20k less and a light weight sporty sedan that embarrasses the hell out of all the heavy weight high powered pigs rolling around.
^This guys gets it!
As stated before, I like the way you think!
02-15-13, 01:41 PM
#183
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here's a 1st hand account from Tada of how the FR-S came to be, the fight against automotive super tech and the return to more pure sports car..
Tada: How Toyota and Subaru created the GT86 | Toyota UK news, reviews, video and pictures
If the new RX-7 is small but useful like the toyobaru has a motor that makes around 300hp(also meets fuel economy and emissions standards for 2017) and sells for $30-$35k it could be succesful
Tada: How Toyota and Subaru created the GT86 | Toyota UK news, reviews, video and pictures
If the new RX-7 is small but useful like the toyobaru has a motor that makes around 300hp(also meets fuel economy and emissions standards for 2017) and sells for $30-$35k it could be succesful
02-15-13, 10:01 PM
#184
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Think about what it would have done, had the original FD been an NA 3 rotor with a leather interior and no plastics? Engine would have been cheaper and the upgraded interior might have added a net $7-10,000. So, a $45-50,000 Rx7 with a 375 bhp 3 rotor and an all leather interior? Instead of a $40,000 2 rotor turbo with a cheap interior that was as fast as the better 944's and nearly as fast as the 911's. Would have faired better competing with a faster, better handling car with the same sort of interior up against 1993 Porsche's 944 and even 911's.
02-15-13, 11:06 PM
#185
No, but with 6 port induction they had the capability to make a 2.0l 3 rotor NA that made 240hp and met emissions standards.
Problem was it would have been taxed as a "gas guzzler" in the US and Mazda policy was to never to pay that premium or label the rotary that way ever again.
I think the 13B-REW was a brilliant solution. If Mazda would have referenced boost in their boost control strategy it would be a near perfect system.
The real problem with the FD was the price was more than people wanted to pay, but if it would have been cheaper it wouldn't be the legendary car it is.
Problem was it would have been taxed as a "gas guzzler" in the US and Mazda policy was to never to pay that premium or label the rotary that way ever again.
I think the 13B-REW was a brilliant solution. If Mazda would have referenced boost in their boost control strategy it would be a near perfect system.
The real problem with the FD was the price was more than people wanted to pay, but if it would have been cheaper it wouldn't be the legendary car it is.
02-16-13, 06:03 AM
#186
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Some members still do not like Rx-8 Why ? To allow rotary alive ?
SE3P'S chassis better than FD
SE3P is cheaper than FD
SE3P has more room and practical than FD
FD never totaly againts and succesful than NSX, SUPRA MARK IV, GT-R
Because it hasn't enough power to race with them yes it has been racing all circuits but in topspeed way and the power figures the rest of its rivals 1 foot behind of it. Because Rotary fight againts emissions and Mazda isn't big company like others.
Everybody wants superior car but this is our dreams. And also here in rx7club forum maybe members angry to me but these are the truths. If you want to play big put it big ! If Mazda put 20b Turbo or 16x 3 rotor Turbo or anything like that then i say ok. Now the rules are equal !
I am fan of Rotaries i have Rx-8 R3 and i am always thinking what Rotary supercar will be or accessible car will be. There my mind say me to listen logic.
Mazda have an engine 16x we know 2 rotor design or 3 rotor maybe this is gossip. I always see people live with past and run to worn-out ideas.
Mazda need Rotary Roadster Platform
Why ?
Because they don't pass emissions and they need a platform to produce lightweight car. If they play like that rivals ready for scene but Mazda not.
Rotary is a lifestlye but rivals play big in this scene. If Mazda wants play big Furai design is the most beautiful design ever.
That's enough what am i saying.
Best Regards.
SE3P'S chassis better than FD
SE3P is cheaper than FD
SE3P has more room and practical than FD
FD never totaly againts and succesful than NSX, SUPRA MARK IV, GT-R
Because it hasn't enough power to race with them yes it has been racing all circuits but in topspeed way and the power figures the rest of its rivals 1 foot behind of it. Because Rotary fight againts emissions and Mazda isn't big company like others.
Everybody wants superior car but this is our dreams. And also here in rx7club forum maybe members angry to me but these are the truths. If you want to play big put it big ! If Mazda put 20b Turbo or 16x 3 rotor Turbo or anything like that then i say ok. Now the rules are equal !
I am fan of Rotaries i have Rx-8 R3 and i am always thinking what Rotary supercar will be or accessible car will be. There my mind say me to listen logic.
Mazda have an engine 16x we know 2 rotor design or 3 rotor maybe this is gossip. I always see people live with past and run to worn-out ideas.
Mazda need Rotary Roadster Platform
Why ?
Because they don't pass emissions and they need a platform to produce lightweight car. If they play like that rivals ready for scene but Mazda not.
Rotary is a lifestlye but rivals play big in this scene. If Mazda wants play big Furai design is the most beautiful design ever.
That's enough what am i saying.
Best Regards.
02-16-13, 11:33 AM
#187
Senior Member
My take on what I'd do for a new RX-7:
As small and lightweight (~2500 lb.) and aerodynamically efficient as possible. These qualities are inherently desirable for a *real* sports car, and also will benefit fuel mileage which, like it or not, will be a factor in whether the car is viable or not. Could/should share underpinnings with Miata, but with a swoopier coupe body with much lower hood and front fenderlines. Rotary shoved as far back and down as possible, of course.
base 2-rotor NA version, ~240hp, better power/weight than stock FD, reasonable price, maybe $30-32k.
turbo, 300 minimum up to ~360hp (would be interesting to target C7 power/weight), priced reasonably for the performance ($40k+)
mild hybrid, with ~25hp electric motor acting as flywheel/starter motor. Normal mode for maximum in-town fuel economy, sport mode where stored battery energy is only released at near full-throttle, or commanded via steering wheel button, maybe? Should get combined FR-S/BRZ mpg as a minimum. Price attractively to keep the average RX-7 fleet mpg reasonable, ~$35k.
Yeah, that just might work...
As small and lightweight (~2500 lb.) and aerodynamically efficient as possible. These qualities are inherently desirable for a *real* sports car, and also will benefit fuel mileage which, like it or not, will be a factor in whether the car is viable or not. Could/should share underpinnings with Miata, but with a swoopier coupe body with much lower hood and front fenderlines. Rotary shoved as far back and down as possible, of course.
base 2-rotor NA version, ~240hp, better power/weight than stock FD, reasonable price, maybe $30-32k.
turbo, 300 minimum up to ~360hp (would be interesting to target C7 power/weight), priced reasonably for the performance ($40k+)
mild hybrid, with ~25hp electric motor acting as flywheel/starter motor. Normal mode for maximum in-town fuel economy, sport mode where stored battery energy is only released at near full-throttle, or commanded via steering wheel button, maybe? Should get combined FR-S/BRZ mpg as a minimum. Price attractively to keep the average RX-7 fleet mpg reasonable, ~$35k.
Yeah, that just might work...
02-17-13, 08:44 AM
#188
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My take on what I'd do for a new RX-7:
As small and lightweight (~2500 lb.) and aerodynamically efficient as possible. These qualities are inherently desirable for a *real* sports car, and also will benefit fuel mileage which, like it or not, will be a factor in whether the car is viable or not. Could/should share underpinnings with Miata, but with a swoopier coupe body with much lower hood and front fenderlines. Rotary shoved as far back and down as possible, of course.
base 2-rotor NA version, ~240hp, better power/weight than stock FD, reasonable price, maybe $30-32k.
turbo, 300 minimum up to ~360hp (would be interesting to target C7 power/weight), priced reasonably for the performance ($40k+)
mild hybrid, with ~25hp electric motor acting as flywheel/starter motor. Normal mode for maximum in-town fuel economy, sport mode where stored battery energy is only released at near full-throttle, or commanded via steering wheel button, maybe? Should get combined FR-S/BRZ mpg as a minimum. Price attractively to keep the average RX-7 fleet mpg reasonable, ~$35k.
Yeah, that just might work...
As small and lightweight (~2500 lb.) and aerodynamically efficient as possible. These qualities are inherently desirable for a *real* sports car, and also will benefit fuel mileage which, like it or not, will be a factor in whether the car is viable or not. Could/should share underpinnings with Miata, but with a swoopier coupe body with much lower hood and front fenderlines. Rotary shoved as far back and down as possible, of course.
base 2-rotor NA version, ~240hp, better power/weight than stock FD, reasonable price, maybe $30-32k.
turbo, 300 minimum up to ~360hp (would be interesting to target C7 power/weight), priced reasonably for the performance ($40k+)
mild hybrid, with ~25hp electric motor acting as flywheel/starter motor. Normal mode for maximum in-town fuel economy, sport mode where stored battery energy is only released at near full-throttle, or commanded via steering wheel button, maybe? Should get combined FR-S/BRZ mpg as a minimum. Price attractively to keep the average RX-7 fleet mpg reasonable, ~$35k.
Yeah, that just might work...
I seriously hope Mazda doesn't build an economical run about rotary miata but keeps the 3rd gen vision alive and builds a world class sports car that they can be proud of because they already have the miata for groceries.
02-17-13, 09:02 AM
#189
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I will be very very surprised (happily surprised though) if Mazda can make a wankel pass emissions. They couldn't in 2008, and 9 years later it's only going to be far far more restrict. Even motorbikes are feeling the pinch and regulations tend to ignore bikes.
02-17-13, 12:59 PM
#190
To downgrade the RX-7 back to a FRS/BRZ competitor is just taking the brand down vs maintaining the cachet of the FD relative to its competition.
What's so great about the frs? it drifts well out of the box there are tons of real preformance parts available, it's priced right and light weight. Frs has a turbo kit available 50state legal 350whp on a 2700lbs car. And the car is less then a year old. If u don't think that's something worth competing with ur nuts. It's only a matter of time before there are 500hp street legal kits.
The frs motor and chassis has zo6 slayer potential with turn key preformance at an affordable price. Mazda missed the market. The frs reminds me of the fc3s, a car I've always been able to go fast with on a budget.
What's so great about the frs? it drifts well out of the box there are tons of real preformance parts available, it's priced right and light weight. Frs has a turbo kit available 50state legal 350whp on a 2700lbs car. And the car is less then a year old. If u don't think that's something worth competing with ur nuts. It's only a matter of time before there are 500hp street legal kits.
The frs motor and chassis has zo6 slayer potential with turn key preformance at an affordable price. Mazda missed the market. The frs reminds me of the fc3s, a car I've always been able to go fast with on a budget.
02-17-13, 02:08 PM
#192
Senior Member
I seriously hope Mazda doesn't build an economical run about rotary miata but keeps the 3rd gen vision alive and builds a world class sports car that they can be proud of because they already have the miata for groceries.
Miata chassis and suspension are fantastic, there's no reason not to base an RX-7 on it.
02-17-13, 03:53 PM
#193
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So, base and hybrid models that are quicker than an FD, and a turbo model that's as quick as a C7 Corvette wouldn't be fast? With the rotary, they for sure won't be economical to operate in any case. A hybrid would just make it more tolerable.
Read what I proposed again. Reasonably light weight + reasonable power. How is that inconsistent with FD ideals?
Miata chassis and suspension are fantastic, there's no reason not to base an RX-7 on it.
Read what I proposed again. Reasonably light weight + reasonable power. How is that inconsistent with FD ideals?
Miata chassis and suspension are fantastic, there's no reason not to base an RX-7 on it.
The C7 will have 450 hp (lots of torque) weigh 3100lbs or 3200lbs and have massive wheels, tires, brakes and of course a MASSIVE ***. It could be the ugliest rear end yet for a corvette which takes some real talent lol. Anywho IF mazda builds another RX7 they have there work cut out for them because in 5 years the BRZ will probably fit right in with your turbo rx7 ideas.
If I was at the helm I'd have a singular team of engineers working night and day to build a light weight rotary sports car that's capable of pulling corvette #s at a corvette price but drives like a mazda and it must be done in 2 years max. It will have 3 rotors, it will likely have to be an aluminum block, it will need lots of light weight parts etc...etc... A two rotor CANNOT compete with the elite sports car world in any way shape or form with or without a turbo.
The rumor that was started back in NOV was that the new RX7 will have 300 HP or more and weigh 2700lbs priced somewhere between a 370z and a GTR. Sorry but that's not going to cut the mustard especially in 5 years.
02-17-13, 03:58 PM
#194
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zDan... I think there may be a big gap between where you are and where we are, if you are saying that basing new Rx7 on a Miata chassis is consistent with the ideals of Koby and crew. While the Miata a nice chassis and all and where its true that suspension lessons learned on the FD were made to the Rx8, the FD was a fresh sheet of paper best-we-can-do thing. That's what we want. Not a compromised car like, well, like the Rx8... The Miata was allowed to evolve just like a 911. Why didn't they keep the FD body and just keep working it the way they did the Miata? All they should be doing is building a series of specialty cars. They will never make it as a full line manufacturer.
Gordon
Gordon
Or just call it the RX9 and continue on your current path that's likely headed toward bankruptcy.
02-17-13, 07:09 PM
#195
Senior Member
zDan... I think there may be a big gap between where you are and where we are, if you are saying that basing new Rx7 on a Miata chassis is consistent with the ideals of Koby and crew. While the Miata a nice chassis and all and where its true that suspension lessons learned on the FD were made to the Rx8, the FD was a fresh sheet of paper best-we-can-do thing. That's what we want. Not a compromised car like, well, like the Rx8...
But if it makes you feel better, OK, let them spend the money on "special" suspension components for a new '7.
All they should be doing is building a series of specialty cars. They will never make it as a full line manufacturer.
But again, let them develop 7 stuff separately, the cost impact wouldn't necessarily have to be huge.
Thinking they can suddenly magically be able to sell a sports car for Porsche money is a fantasy, though.
02-17-13, 07:19 PM
#196
Senior Member
The C7 will have 450 hp (lots of torque) weigh 3100lbs or 3200lbs
Anywho IF mazda builds another RX7 they have there work cut out for them because in 5 years the BRZ will probably fit right in with your turbo rx7 ideas.
If I was at the helm I'd have a singular team of engineers working night and day to build a light weight rotary sports car that's capable of pulling corvette #s at a corvette price but drives like a mazda and it must be done in 2 years max.
It will have 3 rotors, it will likely have to be an aluminum block, it will need lots of light weight parts etc...etc... A two rotor CANNOT compete with the elite sports car world in any way shape or form with or without a turbo.
The rumor that was started back in NOV was that the new RX7 will have 300 HP or more and weigh 2700lbs priced somewhere between a 370z and a GTR.
Sorry but that's not going to cut the mustard especially in 5 years.
02-17-13, 08:17 PM
#197
Senior Member
zDan... You seem to wander through a number of off-handed points. You seem to want to say the Rx8 is not a compromised car, so, since I don't want a compromised Rx7, it would be okay to use the Rx8 chassis as the basis for the new Rx7. Can we just forget about the Rx8 and whether its a good or great car?
And, please... Saying a shortened 2 seater Rx8 based Rx7 would be "brilliant" is a bit simplistic, now, isn't it? Who knows?
What else do they need other than that shortened chassis? Who knew it could be this easy?
Oh, and listening to your disdainful and arrogant comment that it would be okay with you if they added some "special" suspension components, sort of tells the rest of your story.
Jee whiz, Gomer, special suspension? Like them thar Heim-ie joints? Squeezey casting an all, huh?
Point is/was: MX-5 suspension components would be just fine, but if you want the RX-7 to have its own dedicated parts, fine. It will add a bit to development time and cost, though.
And, thanks for letting everyone know that "the specialty car path won't work for Mazda like it does for Porsche". Not to challenge your intellectual bona fides, but would you deign to tell us why it won't work? And try to make it something more insightful than, well, Mazda doesn't have the cachet of Porsche or whatever.
Despite your frivolous comment, no one said Mazda should offer equal performance to Porsche for the same money. The 3-4 rotor car I'm thinking about has 375-400 bhp, a very nice interior, and costs $55-70,000 against Boxsters and Cayman costing $60-90,000.
I suspect you will want to come back and better explain yourself, if that makes you feel better, but hopefully without any need to proselytize the Rx8's virtues.
02-17-13, 08:52 PM
#198
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Dan,
Two much stuff to quote and reply to but don't take me too seriously I'm just having fun and I don't think Mazda is even going to make another RX7 but if they do and it follows your very astute well though out design plan I may be interested in reading about it the same way I'm interested in the BRZ or the RX8 which are cool cars but the RX7 deserves better and hopefully Mazda will see it that way and then I may actually want to own one.
Two much stuff to quote and reply to but don't take me too seriously I'm just having fun and I don't think Mazda is even going to make another RX7 but if they do and it follows your very astute well though out design plan I may be interested in reading about it the same way I'm interested in the BRZ or the RX8 which are cool cars but the RX7 deserves better and hopefully Mazda will see it that way and then I may actually want to own one.
02-17-13, 09:32 PM
#199
Senior Member
Personally, I prefer a minimalist approach. Minimal size, minimal weight, reasonable $$$.
I think a car of BRZ size/weight, but a 2-seater with engine/firewall/driver moved way aft, with 240hp na 2-rotor, 300-360hp turbo could be done for reasonable $$$ using MX-5 mechanicals where it makes sense. I'm not really concerned so much with whether it slays all right out of the box. I'd rather mod a simpler/cheaper/lighter car than spend a ton more on a turn-key supercar.
I think that having a lower-powered 2-rotor NA base model might make a potential new RX-7 more viable. I wonder if the FD might have survived longer in the US with an N/A model?
Of course, everything I'm proposing is my opinion only!
Last edited by ZDan; 02-17-13 at 09:37 PM.
02-17-13, 09:49 PM
#200
The problem with Mazda is they will price it as possible
I jumped on the rotary bandwagon when a friend showed me how simple it was to bolt on big hp. First second and third gen rx7s can all safely make 400+ hp if u know what ur doing. First and second gens were inexpensive.
To me the rx7 is all about David vs Goliath. U buy a inexpensive sports car and race against cars vetts mustangs porches and other heavy weights that cost far more$$$ Nothing beats the feeling of owning an intelligent car that costs less and delivers more.
Engine swaps that take hours, not afternoons or weekends.
Trans swaps/clutches that take less then an hour.
If the car is too expensive heavy hi tech or hard to work on than all is lost.
I would love to get info from Mazda engineers so I can go into my shop and work on improvements and designs.
I jumped on the rotary bandwagon when a friend showed me how simple it was to bolt on big hp. First second and third gen rx7s can all safely make 400+ hp if u know what ur doing. First and second gens were inexpensive.
To me the rx7 is all about David vs Goliath. U buy a inexpensive sports car and race against cars vetts mustangs porches and other heavy weights that cost far more$$$ Nothing beats the feeling of owning an intelligent car that costs less and delivers more.
Engine swaps that take hours, not afternoons or weekends.
Trans swaps/clutches that take less then an hour.
If the car is too expensive heavy hi tech or hard to work on than all is lost.
I would love to get info from Mazda engineers so I can go into my shop and work on improvements and designs.