That's not really true. The 626 had a Ford drive train (engine and transmission). The base Millenia also had Ford engines, transmissions and the S version had a Mazda built Miller cycle. A true Mazda piston engine came from Japan and was fitted in Miatas, some Mx3's and some 323's. A true Mazda piston engines easily rivals Toyota and Honda engines in long term reliability. It's all that Ford junk that's giving them a bad name. Now the Cx7 engine???? I'm not sure where that one is from.

 

Agree, it has to be faster than the FD. 255hp (probably 220rwhp) and 2800lbs puts it at a 12:1 ratio. Not bad for 20 years ago, but I think today it needs to be at about 7:1 to be in the game.

As I was typing that, I was thinking about your story too. I remember talking about that at the track.

 

^^Driving home from Barrett-Jackson Saturday car show this past weekend. Noticed a guy in my rear view mirror weaving in and out of traffic behind me driving like a ***** to catch up. He got beside me with his windows rolled down, gave me a huge thumbs up and said "daum man, I've owned 2. Absolutely love it."

This just would not happen if I were driving a "common" driver like a Vette or M3. Just say'in.

 

Rarity is a wonderful thing Tim.

 

The rotary itself may be small, but it is fairly dense. And as installed in the FD, with the turbos and all associated hardware, it is not a particularly lightweight powerplant. Again, you can replace it with a 6 liter V8 and gain only 50 lb.

FD was 2800 lb., same-era NSX 3000 lb. The NSX was 200 lb. *heavier*. And that weight difference isn't in the engine. But even if the NSX's engine was 200 lb. heavier (no freaking way), that would only put them *even* on weight. If the NSX weighed 2600 lb., then I would put stock in its aluminum structure saving weight. Of course Honda touted the aluminum construction, but in the end I don't think it really saved much if any weight on the NSX.

 

This is exactly what some of us have been talking about and something is better than nothing at all I guess. Hopefully they'll build a better engine than the renesis and it will fit nicely into the FD

 

Flynn
Thx, for racing perspective.
Which from your history, I'm sure it's on point.

If I ever get up north to a track event you'll get first dibs at her

.

 

That's not really a like/like comparison, as any of a number of components on the Acura may have been heavier/more robust/better quality. Honda noted that they saved about 200 lbs over a similar steel chassis by using aluminum.

 

Dan,
One thing lots of v8 guys don't consider is they have an aftermarket exhaust, PS may or may not be in the car, AC may or may not, ABS may or may not.

Any semi modded FD without a roll bar is usually 50lbs lighter because of the exhaust etc.....

I know it's splitting hairs but I'm guessing the difference in weight of a v8 long block and rotary long block is more than 50lbs.

It's also weight that's a tiny bit more over the front axle and doesn't sit quite as low so no matter what is said about the handling it's going to push more than a rotary.

 

Yeah, they *said* that, but they're not very well going to make an expensive aluminum frame sports car and not exaggerate weight-savings.
Suppose they had spent the same R&D they invested in developing the aluminum frame on developing a minimum-weight steel frame to the same structural requirements. Would the difference have been 200 lb? I kinda doubt it...

Anyway, my point remains that you don't need exotic materials and construction to have a reasonably lightweight car, and also if you DO, that doesn't guarantee that the car will be reasonably lightweight.

 

You do if it's a high HP car

You can build a clunker, low HP car like the BRZ or miata that's light weight but as mentioned there's a lot of baggage/weight that's tied to a properly set up high hp sports car. Just the size and track is something to consider.

Part of the reason the GTR performs so well is its stance.

 

(Obviously) I think Mazda did a better job than Acura, in hindsight. Both cars were successfully campaigned in JGTC, but reviewers of the NSX always complained about the power deficit in stock form. Mazda gave you a better-looking car, a lower price, and a higher power-to-weight ratio.

I wonder how a turbo 20B would have done in JGTC GT500.

 

I look forward to it

One of these days I may head your way. I'd love to drive sebring.

 

The problematic CX-7 engine was the 2.3 turbo, same engine used in the mazdaspeed 3/6. I read that the turbo version of the 2.3 was designed by mazda, however when I did all the timing **** on mine, FoMoCo was stamped on the valvecover, front cover, and the VVT actuator...

 

+50 lb. is a good number for a street LS-engined FD, with power steering, AC, ABS, vs. stock. Of course an "aftermarket exhaust" is a given! LS V8 swaps that don't keep p/s, AC, ABS, etc etc. are lighter than stock.
I know that the rotary FD can lose a LOT of weight with exhaust and single-turbo and other mods. That was kind of my point. I was arguing that the totally stock all-in weight of the FD's powerplant wasn't particularly lightweight, probably no lighter than the NSX's.

With 11k/11k Ohlins, mine doesn't push! I had to disconnect the rear sway bar last track event, even with a huge Speedway bar up front.
That said, with a huge increase in power, a more "pushy" setup can be conducive to getting the power down.

The difference in weight balance is not tremendous. With me and 3/4-tank of fuel in the car, mine is 49.9/50.1 F/R. I think a stock FD with driver and full tank is 49/51. OHV V8 c.g. is pretty low, I doubt that the car's c.g. is raised more than a tenth of an inch if at all vs. stock.

 

Ahh, I remember seeing an FD for the first time at a local car meet, so subtle, so calm, so raw. It was a CYM, who knew that a year later I would become the owner of a VR R1? Best decision I ever made, and no I do not miss the diesel guzzling 7.3L F350 I gave up just to have an FD.

 

I'm sure you can get your car to properly handle the torque and take any push out that may be caused by the V8 position but the turn in/steering is going to be compromised because the engine placement is a compromise.

OK so it sounds like the actual weight is about 100lbs difference which isn't bad at all considering the overall improvement in power, reliability, gas mileage and trans.

I don't think anyone on this forum would question which engine is more practical but nobody in their right mind would call an FD owner practical

 

Isn't Mazda working with Fiat/Alpha on next join Alpha-Miata, maybe some of that 4C CF will trickle in, although it didnt make the 4C light.

Sorry but many of the alloys have excellent strength to weight ratios and superior toughness to steel. Problems come in on people welding HT’d alloys that should be riveted, bonded. Tell your story to Boeing, Airbus, the Navy, Ford, Audi, and Lotus with makes aluminum frames for Jaguar, Aston Martin and themselves.

 

Yea stock rew is heavy with all the things that help it make power but don't forget about where all that engine weight is within the chassis. Nice and low and behind the front wheel centers. Most forget that this is one of the main reasons the fd has the cat like reflexes. The Rx8 has its engine mounted even lower and furthure back than the fd does. So when you turn that steering wheel, the vehicle responds immediately to your inputs. Less weight transfers, no delays, just point and shot. This responsiveness is something the fd can't match in stock form. Just know that 50/50 is only part of the story.

Also aluminum chassis has to be doing something. The new Range Rover is 600lbs lighter than last years model all because they went to an all aluminum chassis.

 

Well that explains it. I'm really glad that alliance is over. All Ford gave Mazda was, its junk.

 

Fiat, FIAT?? Don't they now own Chrysler? Daum, maybe the next Mazda sports car will have an aluminum hemi in it?

My prediction is a 250 HP NA two rotor engine with 4 wheel electric assist (similar to the Porsche 918 Spyder) to provide grunt out of the corners and provide some torque assist to the less than torquey rotary engine. Mark my words

 

Not counting the turbos the 13B is a less-than-200-lb block. I'm not sure why you're bringing up a pushrod engine into the conversation, as a "simple" powerplant like that has no business in anything other than a muscle car.
It could very well be that Honda pulled a Ferrari by fudging weight numbers. When Senna drove a prototype of the car in the late 80s he remarked that the chassis stiffness was lousy; they subsequently beefed it up considerably,probably by significantly thickening the AL everywhere(?). By how much, we'll never know; the same way we won't ever know about your hypothesis of steel-vs-aluminum weight savings, and can only go by their claims.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not a collaboration, but rather it's Alfa simply buying the finished chassis from Mazda. Then again, things may have changed since a year or so ago.

 

Well we shall soon see what Mazda is up to with the new Miata next month. Also looks like they came up short trying to reach their weight target.

Next Mazda MX-5 Miata headed for 2015 Chicago debut - Autoblog


Here's a really nice render I found. Bought time someone implemented some manly looks for a change.

 

Peel off the Mazda badge and 95% of people will think that's an Infiniti.