ZDan

Take a look at Mazda rotary production numbers. Pay particular attention to the era where performance and price were comparable to the Corvette.

Aiming for the wealthy didn't work before even though the car was brilliant.

I say keep it small, keep it simple, and keep it (relatively) inexpensive. It has worked in the past and I think it can work again.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

we finally agree on something!

but the problem it now faces is safety requirements. it's difficult to build even a cheap sports car these days without bogging it down with requirements set on them, which also drives up the price.

fmzambon

Fixed

Andrea.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Andrea up your power goals a bit. Mazda is already claiming potential 300 hp out of the NA 16x. 3 rotor version of that is 450. My example is obviously boosted to reach 530. I think there's more than enough room for Mazda offer these options as there are sooo many sports cars out their with multiple engine options. Factory rotary Miata will never happen.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

a turbo 3 rotor 24x i think will be quite a stretch. even the early engines had the potential for much more than they put out but mazda kept the numbers roughly 1/3 of what their potential could be. maybe that was due to a gentlemen's agreement, perhaps it was just to ensure they didn't break constantly.

an all aluminum rotary will take a bit of work to make it durable enough to handle that amount of power, especially in a turbo 3 rotor format, using nearly 100% of the potential power the block could handle unless they come up with some unique ways of reinforcing the engine design.

fmzambon

I mentioned that 2.4 liters would be too much IMHO. I was thinking something along the figures mentioned in the autocar article, that is around 600cc per rotor. That would mean 1.2 liter 2-rotor and 1.8 liter 3-rotor. Both NA.

Obviously a 2.4 engine would be capable of much more than the 375hp I mentioned.

Andrea.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

The world has changed since then. The Corvette's numbers have gone down since they went higher-end too... they seem happy. Are they selling 40k GTR's a year? Most company's start to push their successful nameplates up market, and then fill in below.

The reality is, there were many other mitigating factors (many Mazda's fault nonetheless) that contributed to the sales in the era you refer to that had nothing really to do with the car just being too expensive/high end per se.

The absolute garbage paint, peeling interior panels, and numerous recalls undoubtably played a role—especially with buyers that thought they were buying a higher end car. From that perspective the car really wan't "brilliant." It was a piece of ****—a great deal of which had nothing to do with a rotary engine. Check the pretty decent numbers in 1992, when the FD was really released.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i'm actually rather surprised the numbers ran fairly consistent to what other major cars tend to curve out at. yes the numbers weren't extremely high but they held up well enough while they transitioned to newer models. appearing that the "unreliable" aspect didn't impact mazda as much as we would tend to think.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

But your forgetting how a rotary is built. Mazda is already building a 1.6l long stroke version to increase torque. That version will have rotors the same width as the older 12a 1st gen engines. For Mazda to build 1.2l would mean for them to build an engine with housings that are 10a width (very narrow). That engine would completly reverse everything Mazda is trying to do when it comes to increasing torque output. Plus they would have added tooling cost making two engines of different geometry. Mazda can't afford to do that. Since Mazda is already building 16x, a 3 rotor version uses all the same existing parts (with the exception of a longer shaft and center plate). I'm all for efficient power but IMHO 1.2l is heading backwards and only makes since in something as light as the next Miata. Now if Mazda decides to build a rotary economic box???

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Oops.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Good point! Thick aluminum oil pan base plate is a start. Engines needs to be dry dumped anyways to handle the cornering "G's".

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

THAT IS ONE UGLY CAR ... Personal prefference and all but wow.. I hopeall of hyundai kia go this route LOL

fmzambon

What I mean is abandon the 16x geometry and switch to a different geometry altogether, while using the lessons learned from the 16x. And also, if the Mazda 2 with rotary range extender goes into series production, Mazda would be forced to manufacture at least two rotor geometries anyway (unless the Rx-7 motor uses 330 cc rotors, which I find highly unlikely).

As you say, making a 1.6 liter two rotor and a 1.8 liter three rotor would not make sense. That's why I suggested using 600cc (or thereabout) rotors for both the 2 and the 3 rotor. That would be very similar to what BMW is doing: develop a "perfect" cylinder, 500cc in displacement, and then use it in 3, 4, 6 and 8 cylinder engines. The same could be done with a rotary: develop a "perfect" rotor and then use it in 2 and 3 rotor configurations.

EDIT: forgot to add that the 1.2 liter two rotor could be similar in torque to the Renesis, perhaps even better. If that is used in a light enough car, then it could work. Want more performance? Shut up and get the 3-rotor. As simple as that.
I don't think too many people would complain of lack of torque or power with the small engine if a bigger one was available.

Oh and I'm no longer an "Exhaust leak"

Andrea.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

We will tear this new z06 up like old newspaper in a hamster cage

seriously though I'm scared as **** cause that car is going to us and every track record in the US

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

just wanted to throw something here, I might be wrong...

Mazda's LeMans R26B Ceramics were Ianetti's not Mazda.

12A longevity was partly due to shorter length apex seals (think short vs long beams), higher oil lubrication of the seals, lower RPM, NA and only 100 hp so heat and pressure were much lower.

early Renesis apex seal wear is due to lack of lubrication at the center of the apex seals and high rpm operation. Mazda added a 3rd oil injector at the center to improve this in 2009+ models.

reason for side port is better internal egr (cleaner), and better combustion for higher overall tq and hp for NA. i.e. 230 hp RX-8 vs 160 hp FC.

I agree that Mazda could have a staged semi-p port for higher power up top while keeping tq and drivability down low with side ports.

I'd like to see a 4 rotor, 1320cc (330cc per) all aluminum motor based on the range extender. Should be very interesting with higher rpm and NA power capability due to better breathing, lower internal inertia and lower apex seal linear speed which supports higher rpm with less wear... could easily get 260+ hp.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the S2 Rx8's had a substantially revised oiling system, one of the bits it got was an upper and lower oil pan, so they kind of did add a base plate.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i had that idea too, it would at the very least sound incredible

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

LoL , bitter sweet glad to finally see an american car with real potential , But hate to see another car that could be faster then the FD !

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I see...

Congratulations! Please don't for a second think I was treating you as such as you very knowledgeable about the product. With all this rotary talk, now I'm to the point that Mazda should go the route of SRT. Wouldn't it be cool if Mazda split it's company to having a dedicated rotary only division?


RX-Rotary would sound really cool!

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

I agree. As much as I like the 16X I always worried about the higher apex seal sliding speeds which restrict rpm and longevity and also higher displacement require larger/better ports which are also restricted (siamesed center exhaust anyone?).

Going with smaller and narrower rotors would increase apex seal life and rpm capability while allowing for better internal breathing and less rotational inertia. Want more displacement? Add more rotors

Why stop at 2 or 3 rotors? It could be 1 for range extender, 2 or 3 for mid level performance and 4 for supercar

Mazda should develop an easy and cost effective modular eccentric shaft and bearing system so that it was simple to have multiple rotor configurations.

fmzambon

Thank you. That was just a comment about the automatic subtitle under my member name. As I passed the 50 posts mark, it changed to "rotorite". By no means it was referring to you or anyone else.

A rotary division would be cool, but unfortunately I doubt it would happen. If the rotary numbers were higher then that may happen, but I doubt we may see this. Unless the new 7 turns out to be a major hit.

Honestly, as much as I'd like to see a 3 rotor as it was described in the previous posts, I really fear that Mazda will come out with only a simple 2 rotor NA engine, wasting the opportunity to differentiate its rotary offering for a limited additional cost.

But hope is the last thing to die (is there such a proverb in English? I translated that from Italian), so I keep hoping.

Meanwhile I have to finish building an airplane for my . It has been sitting for wayyyyyy too long

Andrea.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Again, COMPLETELY BADASS. Remember the C4 Corvette that Chevy was putting out at the same time as the FD?

Well, this is what Chevy has been doing with the time since. Developing and releasing three different generations of this nameplate, each a significant improvement over the last, and now a world class, world beater with a hefty price tag people will be HAPPY to pay.

I remember back then everybody was saying that V8's wouldn't survive, that they'd be turbo V6's, yada yada. I'm sure if you'd said back then that you wanted to make a $100k Corvette, people would have scoffed at that too. Sound familiar anyone?

Might as well start saving.

fmzambon

I did some simple calculations: the 16x has 23% more displacement than a 13b. At the same time its rotor breadth is only 87.5% than that of a 13b. Doing the calculations, it turns out that the surface area of the side places increases by 40.5%. This is more than the displacement increase, so the side ports could be made large enough to feed the larger displacement even at higher speeds.
Ceramic seals could be lighter and thus not be overloaded in high speed running, while also being suitable for use with stiffer springs for less low speed leakage.
Add to all this that, although the rotors would likely be heavier, the e-shaft would be thicker and shorter, probably making up for the additional rotor weight.
All of this to say that, in my opinion, if Mazda wanted to, they could turn the 16x into a very high revver, especially if they decide to use aluminium rotors. Just imagine what they could do with a smaller engine

As for more rotors, I'd love to see that. Making a 3 rotor only basically requires an additional thick center plate and a new shaft. A 4 rotor would need another thick center plate and still another shaft. Besides those, the engine core should be pretty much done. You'd still need headers, piping, wiring and all the other stuff, but that should be much less expensive than the engine core itself.

Andrea

Montego

iTrader: (1)

damn... That's a high bar chevy has set for everyone else. All of that performance and under 100K? They have really been doing an outstanding job in keeping its corvette heritage alive. Gotta give it up to them.

Too bad the new Z06 in yellow is rather goofy looking.... Kinda like an angry pokemon lol

t-von

iTrader: (8)

That's my hope that the 16x does well so maybe they can expand the lineup.

Rotary only division could go as follows:

Rx-Rotary 3 (which is nothing more than Mazda's rotary econo box Rx3 with that 1.2l engine you want).

Rx-Rotary 7 (been discussed already)

Rx-Rotary 9 could be a 3 rotor luxury Cosmo replacement (like like avatar).

Rx-Rotary 12 would be that iconic 4 rotor exotic like the Furai.


Hey I can dream can't I?

Oh yea really loving that mini rotary engine. When I get into model planes for a hobbie, that's exactly the kind of engine I was gonna put in.