cib24

Time to restart the hype machine!

I still don't see this car coming back by way of mass production. It will be a Ford GT-like limited run special that will cost $80k-100k, and that's it.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

RotaryEvolution

wouldn't be cost effective to pay to train a mechanic, as well as pay travel and hotel expenses to rebuild an engine over the course of a week. it's still cheaper for them to put one in a box and ship it half way around the world.


Replacing or rebuilding the engine instead of correctly diagnosing the problem is exactly what the dealerships have been doing though. That is exactly the problem I am talking about,

Dealer mechanics that can't diagnose a rotary issue are a large part of what have given the rotary a terrible reputation.

"That damn rotary engine blew up, that is the problem."

Flooded is not blown up.
Carbon lock is not blown up.
Weak battery/starter/ignition is not blown up.
Poor compression can be flooded, carbon lock or blown up. Get it started and find out which.

TRRAPLN

These guys need to learn the first corporate rule of car making;

MANAGE EXPECTATIONS.

The CEO says; isn't currently planning a sports car bigger than the Mazda MX-5 Miata.

Mazda CEO shoots down new RX-7 RX-9 rotary sports car

The GM Corporate Communications is talking about "a dream" but has other stuff to do.


The Design Boss is hyping his design and future reality of the car.

The Visionary - Mazda RX-Vision Rotary Concept - Inside Mazda

These guys need to get on the same page.

I would love to see this happen, but not anticipating much based on the info coming out of these corporate milk toast males.

They can't get the message straight.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

well, most of the inherent problems are with the engine or peripherals. can't blame the mechanic for pitching engine after engine into the RX8 for example, the engines were mostly worn out at 100k miles from normal use, which is just absurd IMO. so if an issue pops up at 80k miles, why not just throw another engine at it, after all the engine going south is probably why it was in the shop anyways.

most of the actual problem is that the mechanics didn't actually do a good job doing the R+R's. leaving cracked cats in cars that had coolant seal failures, or just slapping the intake manifold with old crusty 5/6th port sleeves that were about ready to seize or shed chunks of carbon into the engine.

almost any time i had an RX8 or any other rotary in the shop for a flooding concern, deflooding it was just a temporary repreive from the already underlying problem of low compression. the renesis actually had strict guidelines for compression, which is why they were flying out of the cars as quick as they could rebuild them. the 13B-MSP tore down the reputation that rotaries could be semi reliable cars, they had more problems than the twin turbo FD as far as reliability was concerned and made less power.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

These guys need to get on the same page.

Did you read the interview from the article you linked?

This is what the article is calling shooting down a new rotary sports car.

No plans for a larger sports car entry with a range extender?

No.

I take it to mean that the new rotary sports car won't have a range extender...

TRRAPLN

This is what I read;

"the RX-9 -- is not coming anytime soon"

"Rotary power might also make its way to directly moving wheels, but it’s unlikely to see sports-car duty again."

Let's hope that the new rotary sports car doesn't have a rotary range extender.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

well, most of the inherent problems are with the engine or peripherals.

Well, you have more experience with RX-8s than I do, so perhaps my outlook is more influenced by my own RX-8 experience instead of what the general trend is.

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My experience was I get a call from a mechanic that a 40,000 mile RX-8 is at the dealership with a blown motor.
I go talk to the dealer mechanic and he says the lady told him it ran fine when parked and then wouldn't start the next day.

Really? Do engines blow up in your driveway overnight?

"That damn rotary engine blows up in your driveway overnight."

Dealer mechanic followed the Mazda procedure. Did a compression test which came out low. Put the Mazda engine cleaner in the engine as prescribed and later did another compression test that came back low.

I towed it home and put a 200A battery charger on it and used starting fluid to get it started and the combustion pressure behind the seals pushed the carbon out after some seconds of running like complete crap.

I put generous amounts of Lucas injector cleaner/top end lube in the tank and drove it for a couple days making sure to keep it at/near redline once warmed up.

Engine had trouble starting hot so I kept at it - only driving it as hard as possible on the street and racing it.

Some time in the 1st season of racing the car the hot start issues/flooding cleared up and it has been problem free and reliable for 20,000 miles of constant abuse and total neglect and a couple more seasons racing.

Sometimes it gets a code for misfire from being on the rev-limiter too many minutes at a time, but it works itself out after some drive cycles.

Its an 4 speed auto, so rev limiter is for the torque converter and ~2,000rpm under the actual engine redline...

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Mazda exec explains the brand's philosophy on turbochargers | TopGear.com.ph

Oh, and they still haven't given up working on the SkyActiv-R (the R stands for rotary, by the way). Keep praying, guys.

cib24

Very generally speaking, the common rotary motors are known to last about this long right?

FA/FB - 150-200k

FC - 100-150k

FD - 40-70k

FE RX-8 - 60-120k

I know the engine life for the FD is largely due to heat and power levels for the motor as it was the most powerful factory 2-rotor. What I don't get is why the RX-8 had so much trouble in terms of longevity. I know the ports are the largest factory ports on any rotary but why was it not common for RX-8s to reach FB mileage figures on original motors?

neit_jnf

iTrader: (17)

RX-8 has higher redline thus more stress on components, less oil injection, thinner oil and heavier car to move

KansasCityREPU

iTrader: (9)

This brings up an interesting question. With the public's last knowledge of a rotary engine being that of the RX-8 and the failure rate (real or perceived), do the think someone willing to pay $70k for a vehicle would choose a new RX-9 or a Corvette? I would love a RX-9, and can afford one, but I'd be leaning toward the Corvette.

Now if the RX-9 was $50k, different story.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

as with everything there is a bell curve, and it seems like the majority last 6-8 years. mileage must matter, but doesn't seem to be a driving factor.

highest milage car btw was a white/brown late 85 GSL-SE, which went 320k. original paint, engine, trans, diff, and even the clutch (it had service records from new), basically it went 300k with a couple sets of brake pads and a pulsation damper. i've seen 1st gens with more, but most had had more than brake pads.

high mile FC, was a 1 owner 87 turbo. the guy sold it at 210k, again original paint, 1 ding on the roof from a golf course. original engine, radio.

highest mile FD was 118k, 94. original engine, paint, rear brakes, clutch, turbos.

don't know about the Rx8, i guess my friend has an 04 with 90k on it, and its original engine, coils, clutch... its been painted though.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

eww, just light it on fire. i won't even buy an auto 4 port car, they were the WORST!

i had a similar experience with the '04 RX8 6 port 6MT i bought for myself, it had 83k on it and was severely flooded. i deflooded it, maintained it and drove it for another 15k miles when i gave it to my ex, upon considering selling it people asked for compression numbers so i ran the test for her, it came back with 60psi on one of the rotors and like 72 on the other... it started and ran "okay" though, surprisingly but it was deep into rebuild territory. sometimes they just lull you into a false sense of security and then leave you hanging at the most inconvenient moment. she then overheated it when her radiator cracked and blew the coolant seals, so it sits a lawn ornament now in her carport, listed on craigslist without any mention that we put blue devil in it just so that it actually still runs and doesn't rust solid. believe me i offered a trade to rebuild it for her but she still ignores it and somehow thinks she's going to get $5k for it with a blown motor.

if people think the renesis redline has anything to do with it they would be wrong, the automatics failed quicker than the manuals and they lived much lower in the RPMs because people generally did not spin them up as often as they should. the autos were always caked with crud inside and had wear from the carbon it had to tolerate.

the later model 6 port autos were a big improvement, they wanted to actually move so you wanted to actually rev them. the early 4 port autos were so slow it felt like an eternity trying to get one to redline and were reminiscent of the FC and FD automatic cars i drove with a 1st gear that just went, went some more and then kept going until you were at freeway speeds wondering why the car would need a 1 speed gearbox...

cib24

I get it that it's a bell curve and some cars last far longer than the average as you have shown above. I can understand why it should be expected that the FC and FD would have shorter lifespans than the N/A cars because of all of the excess heat generated by the turbos and the stress on the components of the small capacity 2-rotor engines.

What I struggle to understand is why the RX-8 had so many issues when the engine is N/A like the FB and isn't under anywhere near the same amount of stress as the FC and FD. Sure, the ports are large and it uses side exit exhaust ports but other than that what is the reason the FB is so much more reliable than the RX-8 when the RX-8 is 20-25 years newer and rotary tech didn't really change all that much anyway from the time of the FB?

Is it really all down to the ancillaries like the coil packs and choice of 5w-30 oil? The late spec FD's were recommended 5W-30 in the service manual and that didn't seem to affect them very much compared to using 10w-30.

Anyway, with regards to the topic of the New RX-Vision it's most likely a pipe dream.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

eww, just light it on fire. i won't even buy an auto 4 port car, they were the WORST!

LOL, its been a very good race car. I won local Steet Modified 2015 and D Street Prepared 2016 in it. I just bought some used Ohlins for it and slapped my 18x11 295/30-18 from my FD on it.

This brings up an interesting question. With the public's last knowledge of a rotary engine being that of the RX-8 and the failure rate (real or perceived), do the think someone willing to pay $70k for a vehicle would choose a new RX-9 or a Corvette? I would love a RX-9, and can afford one, but I'd be leaning toward the Corvette.


This is why Mazda is doing crazy intensive product development on it- to make sure it will be trouble free.
I think this will work if Mazda satisfies themselves and so offers an outrageous 10 year unlimited powertrain warranty again- but up front and from the start.

don't know about the Rx8, i guess my friend has an 04 with 90k on it, and its original engine, coils, clutch... its been painted though.

I have a racing buddy with an RX-8 with over 150,000 miles on original engine, but he did recently change out the coils. It needs a pull start every once in a while

New RX-8 definitely needed a "hybrid" starter/alternator/torque booster just so no customer got stranded.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the weak starters definitely didn't help, if the cars had something like my insight with an IMA motor that could spin the engine up to 500+ RPMs then it would have alleviated a lot of flooding issues with them. i burned out more than a couple starters just trying to get those cars going.

fmzambon

As far as I know:

• The switch from one central oil injector to two side injectors (in the S1 Renesis) tried to direct more oil to the side seals, but the center portion of the apex seals could be starved for oil in some cases. The reduced oil injection volume didn't help either, in fact one of the first PCM flashes tried to address this by increasing the oil injection volume, if I recall correctly;
• The last non-turbo rotary before the renesis had 160 odd horsepower. The Renesis had almost 50% more for the same displacement, so it had to have larger ports to flow more air. This reduced the amount of support that the side seals have, so even though the side seals were pushed out as far as possible to clear the ports, these seals were not supported as well as with previous rotaries;
• The switch to side exhaust ports dramatically increased the amount of heat that the side seals are subject to. The fact that they were pushed out to clear the ports didn't help either, as they were closer to the hot combustion chamber. This caused more wear or, in some cases, side seal spring failures;
• Mazda tried to run the Renesis as hot as possible to help with emissions and fuel economy. Obviously this didn't help reliability;
• Add a weak starter, a weak ignition system and the fact that it is harder to clear a flooded engine due to the lack of a large peripheral exhaust port where accumulated fuel and oil could be easily dumped during starting;
• Last but not least, the reduced budget that the Renesis was developed on. This reduced the amount of testing that could be done to identify possible problems.

If anyone knows any other reason or has any correction, please do

fmzambon

Oh, and for what is worth:

reports yesterday from one of the Japanese car mags that Mazda will have a prototype , not concept, for a next gen sports car at Tokyo in Oct. they had an awful in house rendering which is why im not linking to the translation. probably just hopeful speculation but ....

Edit: found a link to a Facebook post containing a translation of the article.

cib24

Thanks. So to me it sounds like if emissions weren't such an issue what Mazda should have done was basically make a 20b version of the last FB 13b that was making 160hp and street port it. What a package that would have been.

fmzambon

I read somewhere that after the FD, Mazda wanted to build a road going version of its Rx-01 concept car. But then Ford forced Mazda to switch to a 4 seat car hoping to get more sales. So Mazda was forced to use the Renesis (a direct development of the 13B MSP shown in the Rx-01 in 1996) with a much heavier car than originally planned.
The road going version of the Rx-01 would have been quite a bit smaller and lighter than the Rx-8, and the Renesis would have fared much better in it IMHO.

Smaller and lighter car with the same engine = more performance, better mileage, better emissions and, possibly, higher reliability.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

responses in bold.

mazda has had some decent successes with the rotary engine and some complete failures. most of the failures were due to not enough research and development, before real fixes could be implemented they were usually on to the next phase of development and a whole new slew of potential problems.

putting ceramic seals in the renesis would have saved them many engine failures, and would have bought them back their reputation. but the renesis is gone already and that reputation tarnished. the RX8's rarely had coolant seal failures, they almost always failed due to rotor housing wear, the side seal wear would still be an issue but without the apex seal and rotor housing wear the engines could have had an average life expectancy of 200-250k miles and the apex seals and rotor housings would still be 100% reusable. there may have been other underlying factors though, like cold start emissions since the ceramic seals would not seal well until warmed thoroughly.

i would have loved to do some experiments with the renesis development and in trying to develop alternate sealing materials/methods. the traditional apex seal shape we all know is not the only way it can be done, in fact it has some drawbacks because the pointy long apex seal nose in the combustion chamber is already a poor design.

fmzambon

Hmm, possibly. Maybe they did it for both reasons, to try and prevent wear along the edges of the housing and to better lubricate the side seals.
However, as a matter of fact, a third oil injector was added with the S2 Renesis, so Mazda must have determined that the original dual injector arrangement didn't provide enough lubrication to the center part of the apex seal. I can't see any other reason to do so.

The use of old crankcase oil rather than a separate, fresh, 2 stroke oil reservoir is another matter which I hope can be finally solved with the Skyactiv-R. I reckon it depends on what the oil injection rate turns out to be: if it's low enough that the engine can go from an oil change to the next with, say, only a few quarts of 2 stroke oil, then maybe Mazda will consider using such a system. Users are slowly getting accostumated to having to monitor more than one consumable fluid in their cars (think AdBlue injection for diesels). And burning clean 2 stroke oil rather than dirty 4 stroke oil should also help with emissions, so...

I remember this picture from Mazda, but I don't know what "previous" engine they are comparing to:



They are explicitly claiming a 30% port area increase. If it is over the 13B REW, well, that's easy to achieve. But the drawing shows a 6 port engine with the additional area being spread on the aux ports as well, so it's reasonable to assume that the "other" engine was a 6 port too

We'll see what solutions Mazda comes up with. They've said that this new rotary car will get 3 times as much testing as a regular car gets, so there could be some hope for a repeat of the FB reliability. Maybe
If everything goes according to the latest rumors, next october we may get to see this new rotary

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i started at Mazda when the FD was still under warranty and it was way worse than the Rx8. actually the Mazda 6's were worse than the Rx8's. not saying the Rx8 is perfect or anything, but in context they were as good as, or better than the rest of Mazda's fleet at the time.

more below

the early Rx8 starter is literally the same as the FD starter, and the FC starter, except for the nose, its all the same part numbers. the faster starter is a band-aid.

the Rx8 was developed while Ford ran Mazda, and it shows. its in the Rx8 book, but briefly; in about 1992 (remember the FD designs were frozen in like 1988), the Mazda Rotary engineers decided that the REW wouldn't meet emissions targets in the future. they had a running side port engine in 93, and they had it in the Rx-01 in 1995. Ford took over 1/1/1996, killed the Rx-01, and fired all the rotary engineers except 1.

in late 1999, the Ford guys realized that they had no new cars in development, and so they green lit a rotary car. they took the side port engine, which had been happily running at 220hp since 1995 in a miata, which is 2400lbs. then they put the engine in a 3000lbs car, and it then didn't meet any of the performance targets.

so they had a last minute thrash to get more power AND better mileage out of the 13B-MSP (and remember by one guy), and then the result is the Rx8 we know.

the Rx8 "unreliability" isn't any one thing, its a bunch of little things. push to get more power, bigger heavier car, etc etc

i must say though that my Rx8's been just fine

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i guess you guys will see how bad the wear is on the housings when they come apart. also the main bearings don't last like the older engines because of the 5W-20 oil they run, no more pulling apart a 200k mile engine and seeing less than 10% copper showing. at 100k i would see on average about 20-30% copper showing.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I believe you 100% on the RX-8 housing wear.
The hi power 13B-MSP is a 9,000rpm engine and the revs wear housing chrome and apex seals exponentially as they increase.
Not to mention the compromises for emissions/gas mileage.

Mazda didn't even rev their factory race engines with ceramic seals and cermet housing coatings any higher.

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Anyways, the new 16X or whatever should be a nice low rev turbo motor and Mazda has already stated they have new seal materials and design as well as the revised oiling.