The RX-7 confirmed to be in the pipeline for 2017---RX-Vision Unveil!!
10-02-15, 11:32 AM
#2651
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this is 100% true. i have had my peripheral port idling smoothly @900rpm, and it has a carb on it! of course i didn't leave it like that, the whole point is the brap brap idle.
10-02-15, 03:40 PM
#2652
Yes, We ran them with a custom driver though, it was for testing our systems without our injectors as we didnt want to test electronics issues on our own injectors.
I could see that, imagine that was on BMWs list of testing even though it never got implemented. Tons of development code like that in most ECUs
I could see that, imagine that was on BMWs list of testing even though it never got implemented. Tons of development code like that in most ECUs
10-02-15, 03:48 PM
#2653
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the stratified charge mode usually isn't legal in the US, as it usually emits too much Nox to pass the emissions testing
10-02-15, 11:02 PM
#2654
Given the longish hood of the concept pic and extra rear window, I suspect this is a new Cosmo Sports Sedan (last gen Cosmo had both the long hood and small window). Rx7 and Miata have their own design language that has stayed consistent over the generations. Nothing about that pic screams Rx7 to me at all.
Last edited by t-von; 10-02-15 at 11:06 PM.
10-03-15, 09:36 AM
#2655
Full Member
Here is an interesting write up-
http://www.slideshare.net/chhabile/transonic-report-3
Some highlights-
AFRs
150 AFR idle (Yes, 150 parts air to 1 part fuel)
80 AFR partial load
14.7 AFR full load
All fuel injection/combustion timed to begin 20-30 degrees AFTER TOP DEAD CENTER.
This is huge on a rotary. No longer do you have wasted work of the combustion starting above the minor axis of the rotor housing and having to travel through the slot of the rotor past the minor axis pinch point while expanding. Rotary compression ratio can increase without the huge pumping losses.
Knock is ELIMINATED. Another big one and perhaps why rumors are the 2017 rotary will be NA and the 2020 rotary will be turbo again.
Mazda has already announced that their next generation of Skyativ gasoline engines will be compression ignition engines.
Claimed compression ratio working with compression ignition as low as 13:1 CR. This can work with 16X.
Fuel/combustion no longer in contact with the engine interior. Again, huge for the rotary which has suffered from high internal surface area. Should see more than the 100% improvement in fuel economy the piston engines saw (100mpg in 3,200lb car).
It is almost "drop in" technology for already direct injection engines. Special heated pintle injectors, fuel rail, ECU and software. It is a near term solution on internal combustion engines.
Supercritical injection is another application of existing technology. This is a current process for caffeine extraction for de-caffeinated coffee and tea as well as supercritical water injection in waste combustion for low emissions.
That is another interesting area. You can burn a supercritical mixture of 40% water and 60% fuel.
Applications-
Transonic is working with 5 OEM companies.
http://www.slideshare.net/chhabile/transonic-report-3
Some highlights-
AFRs
150 AFR idle (Yes, 150 parts air to 1 part fuel)
80 AFR partial load
14.7 AFR full load
All fuel injection/combustion timed to begin 20-30 degrees AFTER TOP DEAD CENTER.
This is huge on a rotary. No longer do you have wasted work of the combustion starting above the minor axis of the rotor housing and having to travel through the slot of the rotor past the minor axis pinch point while expanding. Rotary compression ratio can increase without the huge pumping losses.
Knock is ELIMINATED. Another big one and perhaps why rumors are the 2017 rotary will be NA and the 2020 rotary will be turbo again.
Mazda has already announced that their next generation of Skyativ gasoline engines will be compression ignition engines.
Claimed compression ratio working with compression ignition as low as 13:1 CR. This can work with 16X.
Fuel/combustion no longer in contact with the engine interior. Again, huge for the rotary which has suffered from high internal surface area. Should see more than the 100% improvement in fuel economy the piston engines saw (100mpg in 3,200lb car).
It is almost "drop in" technology for already direct injection engines. Special heated pintle injectors, fuel rail, ECU and software. It is a near term solution on internal combustion engines.
Supercritical injection is another application of existing technology. This is a current process for caffeine extraction for de-caffeinated coffee and tea as well as supercritical water injection in waste combustion for low emissions.
That is another interesting area. You can burn a supercritical mixture of 40% water and 60% fuel.
Applications-
Transonic is working with 5 OEM companies.
But most of all, the mention of higher fuel burn efficiency by using MAGNETS at the bottom of page 5 rises a giant red flag for me. It may be that it's just the writeup that's at fault and not the technology itself, but If the company actually doesn't exist anymore then this only reinforces the BS idea.
Perhaps there could be some gains, but if they were so great and the tech so easy to retrofit why wouldn't every manufacturer be using this technology? If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
In any case, Mazda actually announced that the second generation Skyactiv engines (expected to be introduced in 2018) should feature HCCI (homogeneous charge compression ignition). It may not be a full-time HCCI operation, but even if it's only for low load situations it should be very interesting.
Andrea.
Last edited by fmzambon; 10-03-15 at 09:44 AM.
10-03-15, 09:53 AM
#2656
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That may have a lot to do with it, however the Euro market didn't get it enabled either even though they did get some tuning changes so it wasn't a simple copy-paste. I'm guessing it's holdover from testing like max240 said
10-04-15, 07:31 AM
#2657
Senior Member
10-04-15, 08:21 AM
#2658
if they made a 3 or 4 rotor sports coupe i would eat my words, i don't care how crappy the fuel mileage would be. i've never even bought a new car before, so long as they could keep it around $70k or less i would buy one.
even the thought of the 16x doesn't really sound all that appealing to me, if mazda reintroduces the rotary they need to make a solid n/a larger displacement engine. with direct injection and current technology they could alternate firing sequences on the rotors to bring fuel mileage up to at least what it was in the past with the smaller engines.
i have a feeling though it will be the all aluminum 16x if it ever sees the light of day. they've spent years on it and i doubt they plan to scrap it for the sake of what i feel would be the only way to keep the engines going, which is to **** or get off the toilet. mazda has always had the ability to make a competition crushing car until now, so they will need to step up their game if they want to play.
ironically if they spent a few more bucks on each car and used ceramic seals in the RX8s they wouldn't have been destroyed by warranty claims and plagued by reliability issues that have driven people away from rotaries once again. it still boggles me that they use a seal that was developed over 40 years ago... yeah they work but not as well as they could with a more modern material.
even the thought of the 16x doesn't really sound all that appealing to me, if mazda reintroduces the rotary they need to make a solid n/a larger displacement engine. with direct injection and current technology they could alternate firing sequences on the rotors to bring fuel mileage up to at least what it was in the past with the smaller engines.
i have a feeling though it will be the all aluminum 16x if it ever sees the light of day. they've spent years on it and i doubt they plan to scrap it for the sake of what i feel would be the only way to keep the engines going, which is to **** or get off the toilet. mazda has always had the ability to make a competition crushing car until now, so they will need to step up their game if they want to play.
ironically if they spent a few more bucks on each car and used ceramic seals in the RX8s they wouldn't have been destroyed by warranty claims and plagued by reliability issues that have driven people away from rotaries once again. it still boggles me that they use a seal that was developed over 40 years ago... yeah they work but not as well as they could with a more modern material.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-04-15 at 08:35 AM.
10-04-15, 08:44 AM
#2660
Google Moller International, the original maker of the "skycar" that will never leave the hanger yet last i heard they were still looking for investors.... 30 some odd years after they first introduced the flop. look at their main page, it looks like an egocentric takeback from the 70's being toted as the "revolutionary future" still today, taking renderings of their 1970's prototypes...
they didn't do anything revolutionary, never have. they took felix's design and mazda's and simplified it. the skycar itself will never be deemed safe enough to ever take up any airspace. don't you think it's odd that this company still exists yet i have never even laid my eyes on a moller rotary engine in the 25 years i have been working on combustion powered vehicles, half of that being strictly rotary? i've put hands to NSU wankels but not a Moller. that nice big building is quite simply paid for by snake oil investment money.
they even have a brochure for the skycar with specifications, as if it has ever been more than 10 feet off the earth. it's all based off of theory, and i think they even still to this day believe that it will become something(if you lie to yourself enough i guess you start to believe it) so they keep trying to get money from people to invest into it.
there's unemployed people losing their homes and starving people on our own streets yet these people still only care about selling **** to **** farmers.
http://www.moller.com/index.html
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 10-04-15 at 09:22 AM.
10-04-15, 05:00 PM
#2662
ironically if they spent a few more bucks on each car and used ceramic seals in the RX8s they wouldn't have been destroyed by warranty claims and plagued by reliability issues that have driven people away from rotaries once again. it still boggles me that they use a seal that was developed over 40 years ago... yeah they work but not as well as they could with a more modern material.
Ceramic seals were also developed in the infancy of the rotary (1960s) by Mercedes and they do have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Obviously cost is a downside, then they break easily with detonation (which does happen in NA cars when things go wrong) and they eat the apex seal springs to nothing so they need another material between them and the spring.
They are nice and light and last longer than carbon/aluminum apex seals so they are great for high rpm racing.
Mada's steel apex seal is an almost perfect compromise with its tough steel body and ceramic hardness wear surface.
From what I have seen, rotaries really started having side seal issues with the RX-8 because the uncharted territory of long term affects of side exhaust ports.
Ceramic seals were also developed in the infancy of the rotary (1960s) by Mercedes and they do have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Obviously cost is a downside, then they break easily with detonation (which does happen in NA cars when things go wrong) and they eat the apex seal springs to nothing so they need another material between them and the spring.
They are nice and light and last longer than carbon/aluminum apex seals so they are great for high rpm racing.
Mada's steel apex seal is an almost perfect compromise with its tough steel body and ceramic hardness wear surface.
From what I have seen, rotaries really started having side seal issues with the RX-8 because the uncharted territory of long term affects of side exhaust ports.
10-04-15, 05:16 PM
#2663
ZDan
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
If anyone else want more information/speculation just Google "Mike Cheiky".
Search yielded this: The inventor of everything | The Verge
Not exactly flattering!
Well, I think the truth is somewhere in between.
I see Mike Cheiky as a "big idea" man. He comes up with the concept, proves it is possible and moves on to his next big idea.
Supercritical fuel injection was proven to work, it is not yet commercially feasible.
Felix Wankel was another "big idea" man...
Felix Wankel's DKM rotary was proven to work, it just wasn't commercially feasible.
His assistant Froede tuned Wankel's rotary inside out and all wobbly (and invented a fancy name for that process- "kinematic inversion") and it became somewhat commercially feasible KKM rotary.
Now Liquid Piston is using another Wankel rotary design that Felix Wankel documented, but never pursued. Their full exhaust expansion would have just meant less power in the 50s- emissions weren't a design parameter when the Wankel rotary was initially being developed.
10-04-15, 06:21 PM
#2664
ironically if they spent a few more bucks on each car and used ceramic seals in the RX8s they wouldn't have been destroyed by warranty claims and plagued by reliability issues that have driven people away from rotaries once again. it still boggles me that they use a seal that was developed over 40 years ago... yeah they work but not as well as they could with a more modern material.
Ceramic seals were also developed in the infancy of the rotary (1960s) by Mercedes and they do have their own strengths and weaknesses.
Ceramic seals were also developed in the infancy of the rotary (1960s) by Mercedes and they do have their own strengths and weaknesses.
detonation could kill a seal, but we also have even stronger ceramics now than i can imagine we had even with the 787B days and earlier.
10-04-15, 06:38 PM
#2665
The NRS seals had ceramet coated spring tips (the wear surface) otherwise I heard they would noticeably wear the spring tips in 30,000miles.
Big difference on race motor reliability and 150,000-200,000 mile consumer reliability.
If you look at stock apex seals with high miles you can see the heavy wear the stock springs wear into the bottom of the spring.
Big difference on race motor reliability and 150,000-200,000 mile consumer reliability.
If you look at stock apex seals with high miles you can see the heavy wear the stock springs wear into the bottom of the spring.
10-04-15, 06:41 PM
#2666
yes, but also notably speaking the seals tend to do more work at high revs than at low revs and cruising with low loads. probably still a poor comparison but i'm sure they could make it work, there is all sorts of anti wear coatings out there these days.
10-04-15, 09:37 PM
#2667
I'll add this quote from mazda's recently updated history of the rotary engine "We will continue research and development of the rotary engine as our unique technology in pursuit of its further potential. Driven by Mazda’s willingness to take on challenges, the wheel of our rotary engine history will continue to turn."
The dream is real.
The dream is real.
10-07-15, 04:59 PM
#2668
To anyone that ignores the fact that Mazda still has rotary development budget on the books and thinks rotary is dead.
by Teruo Ikehara Wed, 07 Oct 2015 11:51:59 +0900
Mazda's President Kogai who held a lecture at Chuo University's Korakuen Campus
On October 6, Mazda’s President Masamichi Kogai held a lecture at Chuo University’s Korakuen Campus in Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo. In response to a student’s question regarding discontinued production of rotary engine equipped models in 2012, he said, “We’re still developing them at the moment. We’re toiling with our duty that rotary engines would disappear if we stopped producing them.”
Rotary engines are the first internal combustion engines in the world developed for automobiles by Mazda in 1967. In recent years, it was equipped on their RX-8 sports car.
With regards to Mazda’s termination of rotary equipped models, President Kogai said, “To solidify our financial base, we’re concentrating our resources on developing SKYACTIV’s conventional gasoline and diesel engines.” He added, “At the same time, Mazda is in the process of developing rotary engines that offer improvements all around including better fuel efficiency, environmental performance, and more torque at low speeds.”
Moreover, President Kogai stated that Mazda will be re-establishing rotary models once its development advances to a level that meets their customer’s expectations.
(Translated by Travis Yamabata)
Mazda in process of developing rotary engines with better fuel efficiency, environmental performance and more torque | Responsejp (Trend of automotive business / enterprise )
by Teruo Ikehara Wed, 07 Oct 2015 11:51:59 +0900
Mazda's President Kogai who held a lecture at Chuo University's Korakuen Campus
On October 6, Mazda’s President Masamichi Kogai held a lecture at Chuo University’s Korakuen Campus in Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo. In response to a student’s question regarding discontinued production of rotary engine equipped models in 2012, he said, “We’re still developing them at the moment. We’re toiling with our duty that rotary engines would disappear if we stopped producing them.”
Rotary engines are the first internal combustion engines in the world developed for automobiles by Mazda in 1967. In recent years, it was equipped on their RX-8 sports car.
With regards to Mazda’s termination of rotary equipped models, President Kogai said, “To solidify our financial base, we’re concentrating our resources on developing SKYACTIV’s conventional gasoline and diesel engines.” He added, “At the same time, Mazda is in the process of developing rotary engines that offer improvements all around including better fuel efficiency, environmental performance, and more torque at low speeds.”
Moreover, President Kogai stated that Mazda will be re-establishing rotary models once its development advances to a level that meets their customer’s expectations.
(Translated by Travis Yamabata)
Mazda in process of developing rotary engines with better fuel efficiency, environmental performance and more torque | Responsejp (Trend of automotive business / enterprise )
10-11-15, 09:41 PM
#2669
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unfortunately we have one of those in the rotary world as well.
Google Moller International, the original maker of the "skycar" that will never leave the hanger yet last i heard they were still looking for investors.... 30 some odd years after they first introduced the flop. look at their main page, it looks like an egocentric takeback from the 70's being toted as the "revolutionary future" still today, taking renderings of their 1970's prototypes...
they didn't do anything revolutionary, never have. they took felix's design and mazda's and simplified it. the skycar itself will never be deemed safe enough to ever take up any airspace. don't you think it's odd that this company still exists yet i have never even laid my eyes on a moller rotary engine in the 25 years i have been working on combustion powered vehicles, half of that being strictly rotary? i've put hands to NSU wankels but not a Moller. that nice big building is quite simply paid for by snake oil investment money.
they even have a brochure for the skycar with specifications, as if it has ever been more than 10 feet off the earth. it's all based off of theory, and i think they even still to this day believe that it will become something(if you lie to yourself enough i guess you start to believe it) so they keep trying to get money from people to invest into it.
there's unemployed people losing their homes and starving people on our own streets yet these people still only care about selling **** to **** farmers.
Moller International
Google Moller International, the original maker of the "skycar" that will never leave the hanger yet last i heard they were still looking for investors.... 30 some odd years after they first introduced the flop. look at their main page, it looks like an egocentric takeback from the 70's being toted as the "revolutionary future" still today, taking renderings of their 1970's prototypes...
they didn't do anything revolutionary, never have. they took felix's design and mazda's and simplified it. the skycar itself will never be deemed safe enough to ever take up any airspace. don't you think it's odd that this company still exists yet i have never even laid my eyes on a moller rotary engine in the 25 years i have been working on combustion powered vehicles, half of that being strictly rotary? i've put hands to NSU wankels but not a Moller. that nice big building is quite simply paid for by snake oil investment money.
they even have a brochure for the skycar with specifications, as if it has ever been more than 10 feet off the earth. it's all based off of theory, and i think they even still to this day believe that it will become something(if you lie to yourself enough i guess you start to believe it) so they keep trying to get money from people to invest into it.
there's unemployed people losing their homes and starving people on our own streets yet these people still only care about selling **** to **** farmers.
Moller International
10-15-15, 03:35 PM
#2670
Hmm looks like I may have been right about this new concept having something to do with the Cosmo. 
https://thenewswheel.com/mazdas-new-...like-new-rx-9/
https://thenewswheel.com/mazdas-new-...like-new-rx-9/
10-15-15, 03:42 PM
#2671
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Hmm looks like I may have been right about this new concept having something to do with the Cosmo.
https://thenewswheel.com/mazdas-new-...like-new-rx-9/
https://thenewswheel.com/mazdas-new-...like-new-rx-9/
10-15-15, 06:59 PM
#2672
Yes, I think it has got to be Cosmo too.
They can't mess with the RX-7 legend that is the FD, yet they want to make a sporty rotary coupe.
Also-
They are drawing upon the 1967 Cosmo Sport for inspiration on this 2017 50th anniversary.
That is good.
and then the pic looks less like a sports car, and more like a 2dr coupe.
Hard to define a sports car when the common American opinion is the Miata isn't a sports car (what?). You know, not enough power (you mean not a muscle car?).
I see that fender arch coming almost all the way to the hood line like an S2000 and the haunch-y rear fenders and I think sports car!
But then it looks like it will be rolling on huge wheels/tires or it is obscenely low. Yeah, I'm hoping obscenely low, but I think its going to be on 20s.
So like the '67 Cosmo Sport a prestige sports car and not a serious track blitz-er?
We just need a 2,200lb Miata Coupe with your new 300hp rotary engine Mazda. Shut up, build it and take our money or we will buy the turbo FiaMiatas and crank the boost up a bit...
They can't mess with the RX-7 legend that is the FD, yet they want to make a sporty rotary coupe.
Also-
They are drawing upon the 1967 Cosmo Sport for inspiration on this 2017 50th anniversary.
That is good.
and then the pic looks less like a sports car, and more like a 2dr coupe.
Hard to define a sports car when the common American opinion is the Miata isn't a sports car (what?). You know, not enough power (you mean not a muscle car?).
I see that fender arch coming almost all the way to the hood line like an S2000 and the haunch-y rear fenders and I think sports car!
But then it looks like it will be rolling on huge wheels/tires or it is obscenely low. Yeah, I'm hoping obscenely low, but I think its going to be on 20s.
So like the '67 Cosmo Sport a prestige sports car and not a serious track blitz-er?
We just need a 2,200lb Miata Coupe with your new 300hp rotary engine Mazda. Shut up, build it and take our money or we will buy the turbo FiaMiatas and crank the boost up a bit...
10-15-15, 07:16 PM
#2673
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i was thinking that when i wrote that... sport car doesn't define construction, anymore, if it ever did. but yeah, won't be an FD, maybe more like an M3, without all the pep boys boy racer crap.
10-16-15, 12:17 PM
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Yes, I think it has got to be Cosmo too.
They can't mess with the RX-7 legend that is the FD, yet they want to make a sporty rotary coupe.
Also-
They are drawing upon the 1967 Cosmo Sport for inspiration on this 2017 50th anniversary.
That is good.
and then the pic looks less like a sports car, and more like a 2dr coupe.
Hard to define a sports car when the common American opinion is the Miata isn't a sports car (what?). You know, not enough power (you mean not a muscle car?).
I see that fender arch coming almost all the way to the hood line like an S2000 and the haunch-y rear fenders and I think sports car!
But then it looks like it will be rolling on huge wheels/tires or it is obscenely low. Yeah, I'm hoping obscenely low, but I think its going to be on 20s.
So like the '67 Cosmo Sport a prestige sports car and not a serious track blitz-er?
We just need a 2,200lb Miata Coupe with your new 300hp rotary engine Mazda. Shut up, build it and take our money or we will buy the turbo FiaMiatas and crank the boost up a bit...
They can't mess with the RX-7 legend that is the FD, yet they want to make a sporty rotary coupe.
Also-
They are drawing upon the 1967 Cosmo Sport for inspiration on this 2017 50th anniversary.
That is good.
and then the pic looks less like a sports car, and more like a 2dr coupe.
Hard to define a sports car when the common American opinion is the Miata isn't a sports car (what?). You know, not enough power (you mean not a muscle car?).
I see that fender arch coming almost all the way to the hood line like an S2000 and the haunch-y rear fenders and I think sports car!
But then it looks like it will be rolling on huge wheels/tires or it is obscenely low. Yeah, I'm hoping obscenely low, but I think its going to be on 20s.
So like the '67 Cosmo Sport a prestige sports car and not a serious track blitz-er?
We just need a 2,200lb Miata Coupe with your new 300hp rotary engine Mazda. Shut up, build it and take our money or we will buy the turbo FiaMiatas and crank the boost up a bit...Also I don't think threatening to buy the Fiat Miata is actually a threat. It's not like they made the deal thinking "gee I hope nobody buys these instead of ours"