I'm sure alcohol does work better at lowering intake temps

Somehow I just don't think that spraying a little water into my combustion chamber is going to help me but what do I know as you mentioned I shouldn't knock it until I've tried it.

So what are you using your car for that requires water injection?

PS so water injection is for controlling my water, oil and exhaust temps and not for controlling my intake temps?

 

omg more auxiliary injection talk.

so, back on topic, the upgraded water pump may slightly help your cooling issues, but maybe not by much.

 

The topic died in the 1st few post. We've moved on to better things. Talking about water injection never gets old. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread yet I don't see anyone at the track using it LOL

According to wiki its main purpose is lowering charge temps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)

 

Like most things you're apparently able to read and comprehend fritz... wiki isn't accurate. Like THATS never happened. Two or three people in this thread that track have posted that they use it. Coleman, who tracks heavily and wrote the stickys in the AI section has used it...as do many more. Hell, even BMW uses it. It's not a silver bullet for cooling woes and not for everyone. Just like the RE water pump. But you arrogantly dismissed as a bandaid and didn't even bother to learn what is was. And now you're trying to pick a thread fight?

 

It's a band aid for road racing and drag racing.

However it does work. I'm simply saying if it was all that it would be widely used in ALL of racing.

I fortunately don't need a band aid or I don't have detonation problems. I can't speak for howard or anyone else.

Sorry if you feel offended. I'm certainly not

 

Please tell me the main purpose of water injection if it's not cooling the intake charge temps? That's exactly why BMW is using it.

It's certainly not to cool the oil, the water or the combustion temps because there are better/easier ways to do those things?

That said if you aren't running the correct fuel, the correct intercooler, the correct this or that water injection can act as a band aid

 

BMW M Power World

The above link sounds an awful lot like wiki to me

Yep just as I suspected water injection is used PRIMARILY to reduce charge temps so one can avoid knock/detonation.

 

Here are my 2 cents to the Water Injection argument. Coming from Turbo 4 cylinder AWD car community, we used water injection (100% water, no meth) to cool down the cylinder bore and piston, reduce carbon buildup, and knock resistance. With the EJ25 engine and UEL headers (unequal length headers) two of our cylinders would run much hotter than the other two causing issues all the time, to remedy this you either went equal length headers or water injection. Water injection (100% water, no meth) did help my STI reduce AIT but by VERY little, but that was not the reason why it was used. When I switched to a mix of 25% water and 75% meth that seemed to lower AIT a little bit more. What we figured with the random weather pattern here in colorado was that water meth injection was more efficient when the weather was warmer and when the outside temp was cold it did not lower temps as much. Anyway the higher amount of meth was used for high boost knock protection. With both different mixes oil and water temps were not a concern so we don't remember if temps were effected. What did change was over all engine temperatue (infrared camera was used). We know that Water injection will lower chamber temps and we also know that the oil pan is at the bottom of the 13b so we should be able to safely assume that oil temps will drop. Also if you lower chamber temps their won't be as much heat for the water/coolant to absorb thus lowering their temps.

 

It has been used in various forms of top level motorsport over the years, most recently WRC, before the usual reg changes make it illegal.

The most highly developed twin rotor circuit car over here (at least I'd expect it is!) carries around about 80lb of water to run 1hr races. More crap to eff-up for sure though and Murphy loves a race car. Anything additional injected beyond water is prohibited here. For simple 100~150c EGT temp decreases, ethanol seems to be the easiest option.

I'd be surprised a water pump on a turbo rotary is anything to worry about anyhow, getting back to the original post - sure if you're running a 2 piece shaft on a NA rotor revving to 11k, you'll need all the help you can get. Less said about electric pumps the better too!

 

WHERE it's introduced is key fritz. I'm not a big brain, so everything will be in little words and you can stay with me here...water has high specific heat. As explained before, that means it has the ability to absorb a lot of heat during phase change from liquid to vapor. That's advantageous in the combustion chamber. For it to be effective in cooling the intake charge it needs time of contact with that charge, and very fine spray in maximize contact area. It works, but not as well as alcohol. Water can also be injected pre-turbo or pre-ic to maximize effect on IATs. In my proposed application you can spray it pre-throttlebody and be done.
Alcohol has good evaporative effect. Dip a finger in it and another in water and hold them in the air to see which feels cooler. AI needs a lot less time in contact with the intake charge to effectively cool it. But alone, it doesn't do much in the combustion chamber. IMO, BMW would have put an alcohol mix into those little tanks if it thought it could get away with it.
As I said, WI is a tool for cooling, just like this upscale water-pump, just like bigger radiators, just like opening the nose, just like vented hoods etc. And it comes at relatively low cost, simple management (boost activated) and side effects of lower knock and carbon. It's a safety, no tuning to it. For you to ignorantly belittle it is silly.

 

I'm not being ignorant or belittling it and I'm not name calling either. I have great respect for band aids they serve a very good purpose. WI is brilliant if you have elevated intake temps, poor timing, bad fuel etc.....

I'm simply saying that I don't NEED it and neither do you if your intake temps are in check, you have a good tune and you are using the proper fuel or in other words you are not having problems with knock. If you want to argue more go for it but it is a band aid for other problems that are causing knock which typically have better solutions.

Is it an effective BAND AID (something that fixes a symptom but not a problem) at preventing knock caused by elevated intake temps, poor timing, bad fuel, WRONG (got this from trump LOL) this or that? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

If you don't think it's a band aid then what the hell do you think it is? To me it's very clear that it's fixing a symptom which is knock caused by a problem with something else in your combustion chamber so if you can prevent the problem causing the knock, do it, BUT DON'T add another thing that can cause ANOTHER problem unless you don't have another option

 

 

So.

I bought a Power FC. Dropped the idea of the RE-Medy pump. Gonna just grab a V mount in June/July. Upgrading topic of this thread to: Which AC compatible V Mount is best?

 

I've tried pre-turbo and pre-throttle WI (no meth)

pre-turbo showed no changes in IAT

pre-throttle dramatically lowered IAT

 

^IAT sensor location?

 

Stock uim location

 

The water likely helped, but given the stock iat location a few inches from the TB the readings were probably skewed from direct contact with the water. So probably not as dramatic as you thought. IIRC HC and others have recommended to relocate it before the nozzle to avoid that.

 

so now you're going to put the sensor before the water and howard likes that idea

Whatever, you guys are a trip. If you want accuracy put it in the manifold if you want safety put it before the water but you won't know jack about what the water is doing to the temps.

I seriously think the vast majority of FDs running around spraying water are wasting time. That 94 PEG BB car I mentioned earlier had water, special OMP injection, special fans (this is what killed) etc...

He was running 10 PSI on stock twins for christ sake LOL. This car isn't nearly as fragile as you guys seem to think. People tracked this car for YEARS bone stock with no issues. Just watch the temps and back off it gets hot.

So all his silly mods are what over heated the motor. How ironic is that. I sold it to a friend who was driving in DC traffic and the aftermarket fans stopped working.

 

Whoa....settle down fritz. Take a puff off your inhaler and chill. It's ok, no one wants to make you use WI and stop breaking ****.

 

Good advice Jim, have a great day and wonderful 2017

 

Merry Christmas to you and yours.