If you had to give up your FD
04-11-11, 03:18 PM
#576
judging by the number of JGTC's wins by one specific model of car and one specific motor, the best car is probably a mix of both, the JGTC winning 3sgte engine that comes in the MR2, and the MKIV Supra chassis.
04-11-11, 04:15 PM
#577
With the earlier MR2s (91-99) the problem was not the oversteer but the difficulty of controlling it. It was understeer understeer and than snap! a big heavy oversteer. The car did not have the perfect weight distribution and felt heavy at the back. The real problem was it was bad at hiding it. Yes aftermarket suspension helped to tune it down a bit but as soon as you start milking more power out of the engine the chassis started feeling inadequate again.
At high speeds the front feels real light and you have to be cautious with sudden direction changes so it doesn't bite you.
Of course a MR2 is still a much better handler than an average car but I'm comparing it to the FD here which makes some of its cons seem magnified.
I've run mine with oem no-name shocks, oem bilsteins, oem springs, tein springs, 18" wheels and tyres, 15" wheels and semi slick tyres, I've been in ones with coilovers and aftermarket bushings etc. And I am sure you can widen the rear track or do some professional suspension modifications and it'll be a much better handler but you can only change genetics so much, it'll never have FDs neutral handling.
04-11-11, 04:45 PM
#578
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04-11-11, 05:36 PM
#579
I can get a 20v MK1 MR2 (160hp stock) right now for $300 cheaper more than what I got my '95 miata for, than his "asking price" and that comes with an extra 32hp stock.
The 24 hours of LeMons is just a good example of cheap "good handling" cars that is not dominated by Mazda's.
In the hands of a good driver, a MR2 Turbo really shines.
The 24 hours of LeMons is just a good example of cheap "good handling" cars that is not dominated by Mazda's.
In the hands of a good driver, a MR2 Turbo really shines.
04-11-11, 07:24 PM
#581
Gordon, I agree. Quick search in youtube for "mr2 oversteer" shows the snap oversteer this car causes (at least in stock form).
As for Toyota engines, I think some are a little underrated. To me it's not the engine but it's the car it comes in which was partly to blame. Yes they were lacking the edge that their rivals had but they were not bad at all. It's just that the cars they came in never got popular like their rivals. MR2 vs. 200sx/s2000/wrx, Corolla vs. Civic, MR2 vs. MX5 and so on....
If 3S-GTE came in another car, it'd be rated higher imo. To me and many others it's an underrated engine. In stock form or up to 400-550hp, it was as good as a SR20DET or a 4G63. The problem was it came in the MR2 and Celica.
I can't say the same for the VVTI engine found in the MR2 Spyder. At the time it was just enough for a small fun car for the mild driver but when you have competition like Honda, the engine was just weak. There was the option of Blitz Supercharger Kit but it was expensive and gave little hp.
I have stopped following the Toyota world or the developments closely after I've sold my MR2 but I think it was around the same time Toyota went to sleep or more like hibernation. Only exciting cars coming from Toyota in the last 10 or so years are the LF-A and the IS-F. And they are not even Toyota; Lexus to be politically correct.
What I don't get is, they have tried for years to separate Lexus from Toyota in consumers' minds. And then they joined F1 as Toyota where they had no real sports cars to really benefit from this image. And then they developed Lexus sports cars with Toyota F1 experience sticking Toyota and Lexus together in consumers' minds again.
The ironic thing is if they joined in the past as Toyota they'd blend right in with Renault, Honda etc. but in the last 10 years what we see in F1 is brands like BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes (Ferrari is a given) so I don't know what was their strategy (or lack off) there. I must read up on it.
I am way off topic I know, but I'm bored and nothing on TV lol.
Bottom line is I'd so give up my FD for a LF-A
As for Toyota engines, I think some are a little underrated. To me it's not the engine but it's the car it comes in which was partly to blame. Yes they were lacking the edge that their rivals had but they were not bad at all. It's just that the cars they came in never got popular like their rivals. MR2 vs. 200sx/s2000/wrx, Corolla vs. Civic, MR2 vs. MX5 and so on....
If 3S-GTE came in another car, it'd be rated higher imo. To me and many others it's an underrated engine. In stock form or up to 400-550hp, it was as good as a SR20DET or a 4G63. The problem was it came in the MR2 and Celica.
I can't say the same for the VVTI engine found in the MR2 Spyder. At the time it was just enough for a small fun car for the mild driver but when you have competition like Honda, the engine was just weak. There was the option of Blitz Supercharger Kit but it was expensive and gave little hp.
I have stopped following the Toyota world or the developments closely after I've sold my MR2 but I think it was around the same time Toyota went to sleep or more like hibernation. Only exciting cars coming from Toyota in the last 10 or so years are the LF-A and the IS-F. And they are not even Toyota; Lexus to be politically correct.
What I don't get is, they have tried for years to separate Lexus from Toyota in consumers' minds. And then they joined F1 as Toyota where they had no real sports cars to really benefit from this image. And then they developed Lexus sports cars with Toyota F1 experience sticking Toyota and Lexus together in consumers' minds again.
The ironic thing is if they joined in the past as Toyota they'd blend right in with Renault, Honda etc. but in the last 10 years what we see in F1 is brands like BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes (Ferrari is a given) so I don't know what was their strategy (or lack off) there. I must read up on it.
I am way off topic I know, but I'm bored and nothing on TV lol.
Bottom line is I'd so give up my FD for a LF-A
04-11-11, 08:05 PM
#582
Agreed.
I actually read a lot of what y'all were talking about with this whole MR-2 thing...and although I would recognize it as a "cool" and "street-worthy" 90's Japanese sports-car, I also agree that both stock, and highly modified...it is not near the same caliber as the FD, NSX, or even Supra, etc.
I am also disappointed in the lack of Toyota presence in this newly revitalized car enthusiast market that has emerged/re-emerged.
People are finally sick of the Toyota Camry's and Honda Accords....now we have more sports-enthusiast sedans and straight-up sports cars.
Nissan's 370Z is the only "real" 100% sports car on the market right now. Honda CR-Z? Bah....Am I forgetting anything here?
I mean sure the GT-R is great, but as far as <$50k sports cars go.....there's not much out there...Albeit Corvettes, Camaros, and Mustangs...
Mazda, Toyota, AND Honda need to get back into the game.
I actually read a lot of what y'all were talking about with this whole MR-2 thing...and although I would recognize it as a "cool" and "street-worthy" 90's Japanese sports-car, I also agree that both stock, and highly modified...it is not near the same caliber as the FD, NSX, or even Supra, etc.
I am also disappointed in the lack of Toyota presence in this newly revitalized car enthusiast market that has emerged/re-emerged.
People are finally sick of the Toyota Camry's and Honda Accords....now we have more sports-enthusiast sedans and straight-up sports cars.
Nissan's 370Z is the only "real" 100% sports car on the market right now. Honda CR-Z? Bah....Am I forgetting anything here?
I mean sure the GT-R is great, but as far as <$50k sports cars go.....there's not much out there...Albeit Corvettes, Camaros, and Mustangs...
Mazda, Toyota, AND Honda need to get back into the game.
04-11-11, 08:11 PM
#583
Agreed.
I actually read a lot of what y'all were talking about with this whole MR-2 thing...and although I would recognize it as a "cool" and "street-worthy" 90's Japanese sports-car, I also agree that both stock, and highly modified...it is not near the same caliber as the FD, NSX, or even Supra, etc.
I am also disappointed in the lack of Toyota presence in this newly revitalized car enthusiast market that has emerged/re-emerged.
People are finally sick of the Toyota Camry's and Honda Accords....now we have more sports-enthusiast sedans and straight-up sports cars.
Nissan's 370Z is the only "real" 100% sports car on the market right now. Honda CR-Z? Bah....Am I forgetting anything here?
I mean sure the GT-R is great, but as far as <$50k sports cars go.....there's not much out there...Albeit Corvettes, Camaros, and Mustangs...
Mazda, Toyota, AND Honda need to get back into the game.
I actually read a lot of what y'all were talking about with this whole MR-2 thing...and although I would recognize it as a "cool" and "street-worthy" 90's Japanese sports-car, I also agree that both stock, and highly modified...it is not near the same caliber as the FD, NSX, or even Supra, etc.
I am also disappointed in the lack of Toyota presence in this newly revitalized car enthusiast market that has emerged/re-emerged.
People are finally sick of the Toyota Camry's and Honda Accords....now we have more sports-enthusiast sedans and straight-up sports cars.
Nissan's 370Z is the only "real" 100% sports car on the market right now. Honda CR-Z? Bah....Am I forgetting anything here?
I mean sure the GT-R is great, but as far as <$50k sports cars go.....there's not much out there...Albeit Corvettes, Camaros, and Mustangs...
Mazda, Toyota, AND Honda need to get back into the game.
I think mazda, toyota and honda are doing the smart thing by laying low, producing affordable, economical cars.
The same thing happened in the early 90s with the fuel crisis and look what happened. People fell back on affordable cars like civics, corollas etc and look where that led to?
People modifying hondas, making them faster, learning how to tweak the engines etc. It what started that whole import craze.
With the way the economy is now, it would be stupid to for toyota, mazda and honda to try to compete with the big dog sports cars. NIssan did it with the GTR and it was a hit.
Toyota CAN do it with the supra but i think they are waiting to see what the long term market is for the LF-A.
And honda CAN do it as well with the NSX. I heard about them making it v10. I wonder what happened with that project.
And mazda? Well i dont think we'll be seeing any "higher end" sports car from them anytime soon. They can NOT, IMHO, build a fuel efficient, high hp rotary engine. Build meaning mass produce for longevity. They did it with the FD and it failed. I highly doubt they'll try it again and if they did try, would the consumer fall for it again? Maybe since this is a new era and most people who were in the FD era, are old now and the younger generation didnt know how disastrous the FD was lol.
04-11-11, 08:22 PM
#584
I drove a brand new MR2 back in early 90s as a test drive car when my sister was looking for a cheap Japanese sports car (for the weekend.. but she ended up getting a prelude). All I remember from that drive was the sound.. And drove the MR2 Spider for a week (thanks to a friend who owned a car lot) and it was a fun car but didn't seem anything special in terms of handling. And then I drove modified turbo MR2 about 7 years ago and it was very laggy and wasn't much of a fun. I'm no fine tuned driver, but FD takes the win compare to my experience with MR2.
Also, here is a good comparison written my former NSX owner who switched to a 08 Z06.. Good honest write up.
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140602
Also, here is a good comparison written my former NSX owner who switched to a 08 Z06.. Good honest write up.
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140602
04-11-11, 08:53 PM
#585
I think mazda, toyota and honda are doing the smart thing by laying low, producing affordable, economical cars.
With the way the economy is now, it would be stupid to for toyota, mazda and honda to try to compete with the big dog sports cars. NIssan did it with the GTR and it was a hit.
With the way the economy is now, it would be stupid to for toyota, mazda and honda to try to compete with the big dog sports cars. NIssan did it with the GTR and it was a hit.
With that said however, with today's technologies, I don't think it would be TOO terribly difficult for Honda, Toyota, and Mazda to produce a sports car with ~300+HP and ~25 highway MPG.
As long as it's not some 12/17 MPG car, I'm sure it would still sell reasonably well...
Depending on the release date for the Toyota/Scion FT-86 concept and Mazda "RX-9".....I might just hold off on getting rid of the FD for one of these cars to come out. :P
04-11-11, 09:09 PM
#586
You must not have been following what Mazda has been doing the past couple years. Look up the Hydrogen rotary engine. I'm not saying that it's going to take off and be the next big thing, but you can create a fuel efficient rotary engine with it. Not sure any engine that has "high hp," depending on your definition of high HP, is fuel efficient.
At least you put "IMHO." We all know a thing, or two about opinions.
04-11-11, 10:42 PM
#587
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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here is a good comparison written my former NSX owner who switched to a 08 Z06.. Good honest write up.
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140602
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140602
As far as the rest of his comments....spot-on
Engine
The LS7 is brilliant. It has all of the bells and whistles of the NSX engine (titanium connecting rods, hand-built by one person, etc.), plus more than double the displacement (7.0 vs. 3.2 Liters), much more horsepower (505 vs. 290), much more torque (470 vs. 250 lb.ft.). Torque is available everywhere. It really is no comparison. The only advantage in the NSXs favor is the 8k redline vs. 7k in the Vette. Which is a very small advantage in my book, compared against the huge advantages of the LS7. In addition, the V8 sounds great and has butterfly valves in the exhaust. Gas mileage on the highway is an outrageous 28MPG because of the torque and very tall 6th gear. A dry sump oiling system is another very nice feature for those who track the car, which, with this car, you should.
HUGE Advantage: Z06
Handling
The Z06 totally disabuses the notion that the Vette is only good in a straight line. By any measure, the car outperforms the NSX. Weight is nearly exactly the same. Tires are vastly larger (215/40/17 and 255/40/17 vs. 275/35/18 and 325/30/19) which allows a much larger contact patch. The weight distribution is 50/50 vs. 40/60 for the NSX. The NSX feels great under lighter cornering loads but begins to push at the limit because of the smaller tires up front. Additionally, the steering is much lighter in the Z06 than I expected given the tire sizes and weight distribution. It feels quite good, on nearly par with the excellent feel of the NSX. All things considered, the Z06 is a clear winner in this category.
Big Advantage: Z06
Braking
The NSXs brakes are quite good, however, the Z06 has much larger rotors and much more substantial calipers to stop an equal amount of weight. With the larger contact patch of the much larger tires is considered, it is no surprise that the Z06 has much better braking than the NSX. Both cars apparently benefit from improved brake ducting to the front rotors when on the track (my NSX didn't have any, and the ducting I bought for the Z06 hasn't been installed yet), but this is a very common thing across nearly all cars when you put them on the track, so I see it as a very easily remedied, minor issue for both. The Vette has 6 piston calipers up front, 4 in the rear, and functional rear brake ducting whereas the NSX has 2 pistons all around and no ducting. Given all these factors, I think it is logical to suspect the brakes on the Z06 will be much less prone to fade, all things being equal. The only reason why they might not is the greater speeds acheived by the Z06 around a given track.
Advantage: Z06
The LS7 is brilliant. It has all of the bells and whistles of the NSX engine (titanium connecting rods, hand-built by one person, etc.), plus more than double the displacement (7.0 vs. 3.2 Liters), much more horsepower (505 vs. 290), much more torque (470 vs. 250 lb.ft.). Torque is available everywhere. It really is no comparison. The only advantage in the NSXs favor is the 8k redline vs. 7k in the Vette. Which is a very small advantage in my book, compared against the huge advantages of the LS7. In addition, the V8 sounds great and has butterfly valves in the exhaust. Gas mileage on the highway is an outrageous 28MPG because of the torque and very tall 6th gear. A dry sump oiling system is another very nice feature for those who track the car, which, with this car, you should.
HUGE Advantage: Z06
Handling
The Z06 totally disabuses the notion that the Vette is only good in a straight line. By any measure, the car outperforms the NSX. Weight is nearly exactly the same. Tires are vastly larger (215/40/17 and 255/40/17 vs. 275/35/18 and 325/30/19) which allows a much larger contact patch. The weight distribution is 50/50 vs. 40/60 for the NSX. The NSX feels great under lighter cornering loads but begins to push at the limit because of the smaller tires up front. Additionally, the steering is much lighter in the Z06 than I expected given the tire sizes and weight distribution. It feels quite good, on nearly par with the excellent feel of the NSX. All things considered, the Z06 is a clear winner in this category.
Big Advantage: Z06
Braking
The NSXs brakes are quite good, however, the Z06 has much larger rotors and much more substantial calipers to stop an equal amount of weight. With the larger contact patch of the much larger tires is considered, it is no surprise that the Z06 has much better braking than the NSX. Both cars apparently benefit from improved brake ducting to the front rotors when on the track (my NSX didn't have any, and the ducting I bought for the Z06 hasn't been installed yet), but this is a very common thing across nearly all cars when you put them on the track, so I see it as a very easily remedied, minor issue for both. The Vette has 6 piston calipers up front, 4 in the rear, and functional rear brake ducting whereas the NSX has 2 pistons all around and no ducting. Given all these factors, I think it is logical to suspect the brakes on the Z06 will be much less prone to fade, all things being equal. The only reason why they might not is the greater speeds acheived by the Z06 around a given track.
Advantage: Z06
Last edited by yzf-r1; 04-11-11 at 10:47 PM.
04-12-11, 08:09 AM
#592
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Nope she thinks miatas look like chick cars and loves the fd, she points them out when she sees them. I am teaching her well, she doesn't understand why I need the fd faster though.
04-12-11, 08:36 AM
#593
You must not have been following what Mazda has been doing the past couple years. Look up the Hydrogen rotary engine. I'm not saying that it's going to take off and be the next big thing, but you can create a fuel efficient rotary engine with it. Not sure any engine that has "high hp," depending on your definition of high HP, is fuel efficient.
All I want to know is what happened with that? Lol
Cali has hydrogen stations, so how come they aren't at least being offered in cali?
The question is longevity. We know what the rotary engine can do. But to be fuel efficient AND pack a punch.
You say not sure of any engine by my definition of fuel efficient and high hp?
You do know the new v6 mustangs have close to 315hp and run 13s stock right? you do know the new v8 mustangs have over 400hp and runs 12s stock right?
You do know the ls7 makes 505hp and can do 30mpg right??
At least you put "IMHO." We all know a thing, or two
about opinions.
about opinions.
04-12-11, 09:17 AM
#594
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If you think the Z06 can hold a candle to the NSX design you are simply unable to see. You z06 zealots and can laugh at my expense but we will see who laughs last 
The front of the C6Z does not match the rear it's like too different cars. In my eye that will never fly as time goes by because the lines on a car must flow which clearly when looking at the Z06 wasn't accomplished. The NSX has that in spades and from what I can tell in just this thread alone it's clear to everyone but a few that it is simply a gorgeous car while the C6 is simply your typical performance car. Wide hips big tires etc... in 10 years it will be out shined while the NSX will still be talked about and appreciated by at least a few of us.
Don't even get me started on the interior, fit and finish etc..... WTF was that kid smoking he even likes digital gauges and heads up display
I bet you anything he likes the Supra too 
I'll give the C6Z credit for being the best bang for the buck performance car ever made especially with all the deals on used ones but it's not going to be a great looking car in 20 years, the digital gauges won't work and it will be rattling and squeaking like all the corvettes before it.
The front of the C6Z does not match the rear it's like too different cars. In my eye that will never fly as time goes by because the lines on a car must flow which clearly when looking at the Z06 wasn't accomplished. The NSX has that in spades and from what I can tell in just this thread alone it's clear to everyone but a few that it is simply a gorgeous car while the C6 is simply your typical performance car. Wide hips big tires etc... in 10 years it will be out shined while the NSX will still be talked about and appreciated by at least a few of us.Don't even get me started on the interior, fit and finish etc..... WTF was that kid smoking he even likes digital gauges and heads up display
I bet you anything he likes the Supra too I'll give the C6Z credit for being the best bang for the buck performance car ever made especially with all the deals on used ones but it's not going to be a great looking car in 20 years, the digital gauges won't work and it will be rattling and squeaking like all the corvettes before it.
04-12-11, 10:50 AM
#597
On just looks alone I prefer the C6Z06. With that said, if I saw an NSX and C6Z06 parked together in a parking lot I know that I would pay a lot more attention to the NSX due to its rarity. But if I was handed to the keys to both cars and was asked to pick one it be the chevy. No question.
04-12-11, 10:53 AM
#598
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I think mazda, toyota and honda are doing the smart thing by laying low, producing affordable, economical cars.
The same thing happened in the early 90s with the fuel crisis and look what happened. People fell back on affordable cars like civics, corollas etc and look where that led to?
People modifying hondas, making them faster, learning how to tweak the engines etc. It what started that whole import craze.
With the way the economy is now, it would be stupid to for toyota, mazda and honda to try to compete with the big dog sports cars. NIssan did it with the GTR and it was a hit.
Toyota CAN do it with the supra but i think they are waiting to see what the long term market is for the LF-A.
And honda CAN do it as well with the NSX. I heard about them making it v10. I wonder what happened with that project.
And mazda? Well i dont think we'll be seeing any "higher end" sports car from them anytime soon. They can NOT, IMHO, build a fuel efficient, high hp rotary engine. Build meaning mass produce for longevity. They did it with the FD and it failed. I highly doubt they'll try it again and if they did try, would the consumer fall for it again? Maybe since this is a new era and most people who were in the FD era, are old now and the younger generation didnt know how disastrous the FD was lol.
The same thing happened in the early 90s with the fuel crisis and look what happened. People fell back on affordable cars like civics, corollas etc and look where that led to?
People modifying hondas, making them faster, learning how to tweak the engines etc. It what started that whole import craze.
With the way the economy is now, it would be stupid to for toyota, mazda and honda to try to compete with the big dog sports cars. NIssan did it with the GTR and it was a hit.
Toyota CAN do it with the supra but i think they are waiting to see what the long term market is for the LF-A.
And honda CAN do it as well with the NSX. I heard about them making it v10. I wonder what happened with that project.
And mazda? Well i dont think we'll be seeing any "higher end" sports car from them anytime soon. They can NOT, IMHO, build a fuel efficient, high hp rotary engine. Build meaning mass produce for longevity. They did it with the FD and it failed. I highly doubt they'll try it again and if they did try, would the consumer fall for it again? Maybe since this is a new era and most people who were in the FD era, are old now and the younger generation didnt know how disastrous the FD was lol.
http://world.honda.com/HSV-010_GT/index.html
this
04-12-11, 10:55 AM
#599
honda isn't brining the nsx back, they're replacing it with the HSV-010 GT (or atleast they're going to try)
http://world.honda.com/HSV-010_GT/index.html
http://world.honda.com/HSV-010_GT/index.html
04-12-11, 11:01 AM
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If you think the Z06 can hold a candle to the NSX design you are simply unable to see. You z06 zealots and can laugh at my expense but we will see who laughs last The front of the C6Z does not match the rear it's like too different cars. In my eye that will never fly as time goes by because the lines on a car must flow which clearly when looking at the Z06 wasn't accomplished. The NSX has that in spades and from what I can tell in just this thread alone it's clear to everyone but a few that it is simply a gorgeous car while the C6 is simply your typical performance car. Wide hips big tires etc... in 10 years it will be out shined while the NSX will still be talked about and appreciated by at least a few of us.
Don't even get me started on the interior, fit and finish etc..... WTF was that kid smoking he even likes digital gauges and heads up display I bet you anything he likes the Supra too
I'll give the C6Z credit for being the best bang for the buck performance car ever made especially with all the deals on used ones but it's not going to be a great looking car in 20 years, the digital gauges won't work and it will be rattling and squeaking like all the corvettes before it.
The front of the C6Z does not match the rear it's like too different cars. In my eye that will never fly as time goes by because the lines on a car must flow which clearly when looking at the Z06 wasn't accomplished. The NSX has that in spades and from what I can tell in just this thread alone it's clear to everyone but a few that it is simply a gorgeous car while the C6 is simply your typical performance car. Wide hips big tires etc... in 10 years it will be out shined while the NSX will still be talked about and appreciated by at least a few of us.Don't even get me started on the interior, fit and finish etc..... WTF was that kid smoking he even likes digital gauges and heads up display
I bet you anything he likes the Supra too I'll give the C6Z credit for being the best bang for the buck performance car ever made especially with all the deals on used ones but it's not going to be a great looking car in 20 years, the digital gauges won't work and it will be rattling and squeaking like all the corvettes before it.