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I'm sorry, Adam, but did you read what I wrote? Let me make it easier. On average Supra's are priced 50% higher than FD's. Perhaps just going to Autotrader and staring at the lists of cars and prices would be more meaningful for you.
Looking on autotrader and listing the range of a small volume of cars is not a good way to determine the average price differential between 2 cars. What's the mileage, mods, paint condition, auto vs manual, etc... Supra prices (on low mileage TT manual cars) have gone up just as fast as the fd.
You can't say fd's are selling for $50k like it's a usual occupancy. 2 or 3 have on BAT and that does not mean that's what FD's go for these days. Really decent cars can still be had for 20-30k.
I wish they'd go up faster, as I'd sell one of my fd's and buy a used R35 GTR for $50k. Who needs a Supra when you can get an R35 with lower mileage, more power, better handling, for less money. Haha
Gordon is extrapolating the growth rate of FD prices and speculating whether that will make them catch up to Supra prices in the future. The assumption is that if the FD price growth is accelerating and Supra price growth is decelerating, they will catch up. Time will tell if that happens.
Today, we discussing whether an FD, which sells for $50,000 will ever be worth what a Supra turbo, which sells for $100,000, is worth. Five years ago the Supra was selling for maybe $75,000 and the FD for maybe $20,000. These are not meant to be precise, but relativistic, prices. Ts.
Once again, no. A $75k supra 5 years ago would have been an insanely low mileage Quicksilver or RSP 6 speed car or a 1200+ HP $150k build car. Those same cars are now over $100k. Very low mileage FDs have always pulled mid to high $20ks even if it was montego/tan. I know of several guys who have paid $30k plus for very low mileage FDs and have been sitting on them for 5+ years. They were never $20k for a super low mileage mint car. That doesnt mean someone didn't purchase one at that price.
For example, I paid $34k for my original TT 6 speed supra with 73k miles 4 years ago. Car now has 79k miles and just resold for $55k with people knocking the sellers door down. That's a $21k sale price increase in 4 years and over 60% markup. Please show me where that is happening with a 70k mile modded FD. You guys want to believe something that isn't there. Maybe someday it will be but the last 15 years of data says its unlikely.
Nice example of a supra. If FD it would sell for high 30s to low 40s. I have no idea what this car will sell for but if the supra is all that then it should go for 75k plus.
PS Just looked at other supra sales on BAT and lets just say the FD is really not that far away in terms of current value.
This will be interesting to see where it ends today. I didnt look over the pics and verify the car is clean with all vin tags but I expect it to be in the $70k range or higher if it is. 94 Black/Black 6 speed would be equivalent to a 93 Black/Black Base or R1 model FD in my mind.
Edit: I just noticed the current high bidder is an auto wholesale dealership. If any dealer gets it, it will be put back to completely stock and listed for $90k or better within a few months Im betting.
Looking on autotrader and listing the range of a small volume of cars is not a good way to determine the average price differential between 2 cars. What's the mileage, mods, paint condition, auto vs manual, etc... Supra prices (on low mileage TT manual cars) have gone up just as fast as the fd.
You can't say fd's are selling for $50k like it's a usual occupancy. 2 or 3 have on BAT and that does not mean that's what FD's go for these days. Really decent cars can still be had for 20-30k.
I wish they'd go up faster, as I'd sell one of my fd's and buy a used R35 GTR for $50k. Who needs a Supra when you can get an R35 with lower mileage, more power, better handling, for less money. Haha
LOL, I agree. Really hard to pay 40k for an FD or 75k for a supra when there are much better options.
DJ mentioned a supra selling for 150k which really does say a lot about the demand etc... so it will be extremely hard for an FD to reach that level. Whether it does or not isn't important to me I just know I have zero interest in the Supra and will always have one FD regardless of where prices go. I guess that makes me a car collector at this time.
I feel extremely fortunate to own my two favorite practical type sports cars. A 997 GT3 and the FD (both will be strong collectors as time moves along). I love them both and will always be into them. I don't know of another car I'd replace either with at this time. Both are nice to look at, have super cool engines and are fun cars to drive.
This will be interesting to see where it ends today. I didnt look over the pics and verify the car is clean with all vin tags but I expect it to be in the $70k range or higher if it is. 94 Black/Black 6 speed would be equivalent to a 93 Black/Black Base or R1 model FD in my mind.
Edit: I just noticed the current high bidder is an auto wholesale dealership. If any dealer gets it, it will be put back to completely stock and listed for $90k or better within a few months Im betting.
It's not that clean but yep the dealer is going to clean it up and resell and make 30k
I suspect it sell for 70 but I know zip about the market
Diff is leaking some rust on the susp pieces etc...etc..
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; Oct 15, 2018 at 10:08 AM.
LOL, I agree. Really hard to pay 40k for an FD or 75k for a supra when there are much better options.
Or 100k plus for an early Porsche....
There are no better options. It's officially a classic. When you want an FD, the hooks are in. It has nothing to do with the stats in the back of road and track.
There are no better options. It's officially a classic. When you want an FD, the hooks are in. It has nothing to do with the stats in the back of road and track.
Yep the supra and FD are right there with the early p cars or they are collectors for sure.
^^ Thanks Gordon. Now I won't be able to un-see it. lol
Originally Posted by mkiv98
The thing is, we are talking about why a Supra is worth more.
Well I have my theories of why the Supra HAS been worth more.
Well for one the turbo supra MSRP was almost or around 10K above the FD. Note that is a 25% price difference. So given that they are competitive models of each other, it makes sense that the supra would resale for more than the FD.
The Supra developed a reputation back in the day of being a highway killer. Back when there were no dodge demons, no 600hp stock mustangs there was the supra. A time of when a supra with a single turbo would slay Lamborghinis. And that created a BUZZ, a reputation of it being a reliable KILLER that got young impressionable kids to believe the almighty Supra was the end all and be all. A belief (or a want) that is still held today.
Originally Posted by mkiv98
Obviously the people on this forum and people like you and Fritz Flynn have no trouble maintaining an FD but we are a very very small percentage of the population. It's easy to **** up an FD. My point is that it is difficult to **** up a Supra, which is why a higher percentage of them are running…. Yes, an FD is reliable if you read all the documentation over the past 20 years on keeping it that way and have the money and skills to execute. The reality is that most people just won't do that.
As I mentioned earlier, FDs are very reliable as long as the owners leave them alone. It’s not the car’s fault that the current owner is too stupid or lazy to understand that if modified incorrectly the car is going to bite back. So yes it is not hard at all to keep them running good. Just leave them alone or the saying becomes truer than ever “If you want to play, you gotta pay”. And the FD will make you pay.
Originally Posted by mkiv98
Whether it's internet hogwash or not, it still affects the general population's opinion of the car which makes most people stay away and has held the value down all these years until now that they are almost all gone.
If you notice above, I wrote why the Supra HAS been worth more. But now we are heading into the collector market. Where the buyer is not the same as the previous market. This new market isn’t fueled by ricers who live their life a ¼ mile at a time, they don’t want the car for the track, they don’t even want to drive it everyday, and as such they don’t care about reliability. Now, if you believe the market is set by how reliable a car is then I present you this:
Originally Posted by Montego
Take for example this 1955 VW bus that just recently broke a record by fetching $235,000:
Yes a VW bus... Now let’s stop and think about the practicality of the bus
- Unreliable and very finicky. Rule of thumb in owning an air cooled VW (I should know I own one): Is to always carry tools because that car will leave you stranded. Maybe not today, not tomorrow but it WILL leave you stranded without a warning. If you think about it, RX-7's don't even come close to that mindset. Yeah blowing engines are common enough occurrence with us but dammit that Rx-7 with the blown engine will still drive you home!
- Extremely under-powered. Especially with the buses since they came with the same engine as their much smaller counterparts. A 1955 bus came with 30HP! talk about being under-powered. Got 6 friends and wanna go up a hill? Better be in first gear and have two friends push lol... I am laughing but I am not joking either.
- Sitting in one literally feels like sitting in a tin can.
So by all accounts the 1955 VW bus is an under-powered finicky piece of crap that has trouble going freeway speeds and that hills pose a major challenge. However, an under-powered finicky piece of crap that many love. As it brings nostalgia of family outings, road trips, vacations, and even memories of being broken down on the side of the road that somehow bring a smile.
With that being said, I never prescribed to the notion of it's a rotary and therefore people will be deterred from it in the future. Collectible cars are not about practicality (or in rotary terms reliability) because they are not purchased for everyday drivers. Rather they are purchased because they bring out passion and nostalgia to those that love them.
Now I’m not saying the FD will surpass the supra in value (only time will tell). What I am saying is that in this new market reliability is not an important factor anymore.
^^ Thanks Gordon. Now I won't be able to un-see it. lol
As I mentioned earlier, FDs are very reliable as long as the owners leave them alone. .
Lol. Very reliable? Right after you delete or replace the AST, delete the FPD Dampner that will light the car on fire, replace the radiator, replace the vacuum lines, add extra grounding to hopefully surpass the 3k hesitation or install a $1k ecu that needs tuned, bypass the factory security to prevent the click click no start...I could keep going. It’s not the disaster most claim it to be but very reliable it is not.
Lol. Very reliable? Right after you delete or replace the AST, delete the FPD Dampner that will light the car on fire, replace the radiator, replace the vacuum lines, add extra grounding to hopefully surpass the 3k hesitation or install a $1k ecu that needs tuned, bypass the factory security to prevent the click click no start...I could keep going. It’s not the disaster most claim it to be but very reliable it is not.
DJ,
You have to read it in context. All the stuff you are mentioning goes bad with age so to say you can't drive it to a meet is ridiculous.. See for yourself:
Originally Posted by mkiv98
Not for that, but just to have a car that will start up and drive to a meet or show that people tend to do. I notice at least with our FD meet ups half of our cars are usually at home on jackstands getting this or that fixed.
I dunno about you but I have never been afraid to drive my car to a meet.
I’ve been reading this thread with interest and amusement over the last several weeks and can’t help but chime in on the reliability discussion. With the knowledge that any one experience is not significant statistically, mine has been very much in-line with Montego’s statement that the car is very reliable when left stock and/or modified lightly by a competent mechanic. In 25 years and 134K miles my car has never, ever failed to start, broken down or otherwise left me stranded. I have complete faith in the car today, just as I did when I purchased it in ’93. Only mechanic to touch the car in any significant way has been Dave B. at KDR/Speed 1 (although I hear he’s now out of the business).
So no hacks and nothing radical done to the car mod-wise. Motor and turbos replaced at 96K miles, but that was due to a bad secondary turbo and opportunity to buy a new motor from Mazda at the time even though the original was still running well. And BTW, still running the original radiator, ecu, etc. Been thinking it might be time to swap that rad
I’ve been reading this thread with interest and amusement over the last several weeks and can’t help but chime in on the reliability discussion. With the knowledge that any one experience is not significant statistically, mine has been very much in-line with Montego’s statement that the car is very reliable when left stock and/or modified lightly by a competent mechanic. In 25 years and 134K miles my car has never, ever failed to start, broken down or otherwise left me stranded. I have complete faith in the car today, just as I did when I purchased it in ’93. Only mechanic to touch the car in any significant way has been Dave B. at KDR/Speed 1 (although I hear he’s now out of the business).
So no hacks and nothing radical done to the car mod-wise. Motor and turbos replaced at 96K miles, but that was due to a bad secondary turbo and opportunity to buy a new motor from Mazda at the time even though the original was still running well. And BTW, still running the original radiator, ecu, etc. Been thinking it might be time to swap that rad
YEP.........the car isn't nearly as bad as it's reputation but it has a reputation for a reason
Originally Posted by djseven
Lol. Very reliable? Right after you delete or replace the AST, delete the FPD Dampner that will light the car on fire, replace the radiator, replace the vacuum lines, add extra grounding to hopefully surpass the 3k hesitation or install a $1k ecu that needs tuned, bypass the factory security to prevent the click click no start...I could keep going. It’s not the disaster most claim it to be but very reliable it is not.
YEP.....once setup though it's a very reliable turbo sports car. UNTIL about the 100k mark when it will need turbos, engine, trans, diff, engine harness, etc....etc...etc... Bottomline: heat kills everything and the FD/rotary runs hot and cools down slow so the engine bay is constantly being baked.
Originally Posted by djseven
All of the above is for daily driving. Do we want to get into what needs done to safely track the car?
LOL...YEP...........Very few cars can be driven hard on a race track for 20 minutes and not have some type of issue even if it's just brake fade. Run it for 20 minutes 4 times a day over and over again and you'll uncork all sorts of issues in ANY CAR.
If you can control temps in the FD it's amazing how good it is on track. However controlling temps is a 10k problem and add another 5k if you want someone else to do the labor.....OUCH!
Much better buying the new track prepped mustang or camaro. There are some really good cars being built today. It makes no sense to track a 25 year old FD.
[Note: What I first posted was not for the Supra TT so I redid the numbers]
I saw Gordon's post and wondered the same thing so I ran the numbers.
The FD is increasing at a higher rate than the Supra TT, but given the current price difference, I'd say we will never see the FD overtake the Supra, at least not in my lifetime.
Last edited by David Hayes; Oct 17, 2018 at 03:15 PM.
^ Go back and look now. I realized the error when reviewing the numbers and redid them. When this thread started, we could have saved a lot of time by going to Hagerty's but we would have missed out on the fun of the debate.
When this thread started, we could have saved a lot of time by going to Hagerty's but we would have missed out on the fun of the debate.