How to value your FD
09-26-23, 05:22 AM
#6001
Rotary Enthusiast
We just broke the record for most users on the forum at once. Lots of people looking for FDs.
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Neo (09-26-23)
10-04-23, 08:07 AM
#6009
Ban Peak
iTrader: (49)
A quick bump to this thread with a new added discussion point. With the new OEM short block MSRP rising from $7282.94 to $13,546.89 (Ray's club price from $5600-$9200) How will that 40% increase affect the FD moving forward from a value and build standpoint?
I think the short term result will be a returned proliferation of engine swaps, with LS and K-swaps being dominant in the uglier cars with owners who are price out of OEM engines, along with no-engine rollers selling for less. Long term I think it will elevate the valuation of clean stock cars and stall appreciation of modified rotary cars.
I think the short term result will be a returned proliferation of engine swaps, with LS and K-swaps being dominant in the uglier cars with owners who are price out of OEM engines, along with no-engine rollers selling for less. Long term I think it will elevate the valuation of clean stock cars and stall appreciation of modified rotary cars.
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Montego (10-04-23)
10-04-23, 08:19 AM
#6010
A quick bump to this thread with a new added discussion point. With the new OEM short block MSRP rising from $7282.94 to $13,546.89 (Ray's club price from $5600-$9200) How will that 40% increase affect the FD moving forward from a value and build standpoint?
I think the short term result will be a returned proliferation of engine swaps, with LS and K-swaps being dominant in the uglier cars with owners who are price out of OEM engines, along with no-engine rollers selling for less. Long term I think it will elevate the valuation of clean stock cars and stall appreciation of modified rotary cars.
I think the short term result will be a returned proliferation of engine swaps, with LS and K-swaps being dominant in the uglier cars with owners who are price out of OEM engines, along with no-engine rollers selling for less. Long term I think it will elevate the valuation of clean stock cars and stall appreciation of modified rotary cars.
Since then, the value of these cars has gone way up, making the "cheap v8" swap argument grounded. Additionally, there are so many better cars that are faster, cheaper, and don't require a full engine swap that will nickle and dime most to death. When swapping was all the rage, you could end up with a pretty fast car that could compete with just about anything on the road. Now you can walk out of a dealership with a 800hp OEM car, with a warranty.
Coming from a guy who swapped an FC and an FD back when it was "cool", I think it's actually lost all its novelty and isn't cool at all anymore.
The cost increase of the crate engines will likely mean more abandoned project cars, which in turn may lead to higher prices long term for running rotary FDs.
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10-04-23, 08:43 AM
#6011
I am one of the lucky ones that received a crate 13b-REW within the last 2 months. Originally, my plan to was drop in the new crate motor unopened. Now that a new block is much more expensive, I think I'm going to drop my crate motor with Banzai Racing for a streetport and rebuild to make sure all the clearances are better than stock- since this might be the only time I have my hands on a brand new motor.
Overall, I understand why Mazda did this. They have a monopoly on the rotary engine, and they can charge what they like. Many people (myself probably included) will continue to buy Mazda parts. I am bummed that the costs of the most basic components are now essentially 100% more expensive. I suspect that owners with less disposable income will leave the platform and quite a few cars will exchange hands over the next year.
Overall, I understand why Mazda did this. They have a monopoly on the rotary engine, and they can charge what they like. Many people (myself probably included) will continue to buy Mazda parts. I am bummed that the costs of the most basic components are now essentially 100% more expensive. I suspect that owners with less disposable income will leave the platform and quite a few cars will exchange hands over the next year.
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Molotovman (10-04-23)
10-04-23, 09:40 AM
#6012
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
iTrader: (4)
I think everything is relative, right? Our cars have basically reached "icon" or "legend" status. Much like the Delorean reached cult classic. If I had more money and space, I would definitely pick up a Time Machine with an electrical powertrain. Probably the best way to have that vehicle.
With the FD though, there are still many out there in stock form or close to stock form to warrant any panic. Yes, the price of engines went up, but it's not like a ton of us will be blowing up engines anytime soon. Raise your hand if you've done at least 1 rebuild already? How often do you use your vehicle now compared to when you first had it?
In my situation, the FD is strictly my nice weather summer vehicle. If I manage to put 1500km's on her in a season, that would be considered a busy season.
So I don't see another engine going into it anytime soon. At least not as long as I'm alive. 
I think with the price announcement, it'll only make the value of the vehicles increase more.
These things don't really have any affect on occasional drivers such as myself though. The days of obtaining a "cheap build" for our type of vehicle is long gone. As the previous posts mentioned, you can easily walk into a dealer and buy a modern vehicle with a ton more power and warranty. Which is probably why our values are going to go up even more. They're going to become a rare vehicle. Close to other marquees with known rare models.
With the FD though, there are still many out there in stock form or close to stock form to warrant any panic. Yes, the price of engines went up, but it's not like a ton of us will be blowing up engines anytime soon. Raise your hand if you've done at least 1 rebuild already? How often do you use your vehicle now compared to when you first had it?
In my situation, the FD is strictly my nice weather summer vehicle. If I manage to put 1500km's on her in a season, that would be considered a busy season.
So I don't see another engine going into it anytime soon. At least not as long as I'm alive. I think with the price announcement, it'll only make the value of the vehicles increase more.
These things don't really have any affect on occasional drivers such as myself though. The days of obtaining a "cheap build" for our type of vehicle is long gone. As the previous posts mentioned, you can easily walk into a dealer and buy a modern vehicle with a ton more power and warranty. Which is probably why our values are going to go up even more. They're going to become a rare vehicle. Close to other marquees with known rare models.
10-04-23, 01:04 PM
#6013
Facilitator of Disorder
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Apologies if I am stating the obvious as if it were some esoteric concept, but this seems more like a direct result of Mazda's efforts to re-tool their existing factory where our engines are/were made to now produce the 8C engine than anything. I'll just be happy if I can still new parts to put one together. I bought one of the new engines a couple years ago and have very little mileage on it from when I was still running the twins and before my build/exercise in scope creep and budgeting. With what I have planned I am expecting 60 (track) hour rebuild intervals for soft seals (hopefully more, but we will see).
Back when I was a young(er) lad, the only reason I picked the FD over the SA/FB or FC was because I thought it would be the easiest to get parts for
and for no other reason! I also thought I would be buying a low mile spirit r for $30k in 2023. Time has not been kind to my predictions...
I have made reference to this earlier in the thread, but I suspect this will further accelerate the change of ownership demographics from "Budget performance enthusiast" to something resembling of the crowd generally associated with other makes that have no issue spending $20k on a PFC brake system and other expenditures that would probably make most of us here physically sick, and has less technical knowledge of the vehicle. It may keep more of them around for a little longer, but time will tell.
Back when I was a young(er) lad, the only reason I picked the FD over the SA/FB or FC was because I thought it would be the easiest to get parts for
and for no other reason! I also thought I would be buying a low mile spirit r for $30k in 2023. Time has not been kind to my predictions...I have made reference to this earlier in the thread, but I suspect this will further accelerate the change of ownership demographics from "Budget performance enthusiast" to something resembling of the crowd generally associated with other makes that have no issue spending $20k on a PFC brake system and other expenditures that would probably make most of us here physically sick, and has less technical knowledge of the vehicle. It may keep more of them around for a little longer, but time will tell.
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Neo (10-04-23)
10-04-23, 01:59 PM
#6014
Is Mazda actually new-building these motors or running down inventory?
Maybe the price reflects actual costs of new building?
Or does Mazda have a finite remaining inventory and they are repricing to stretch the inventory out?
Is there a date of manufacturer on any of the labeling?
What have people seen?
What are the risks of buying a crate motor that was assembled 20 years ago?
Maybe the price reflects actual costs of new building?
Or does Mazda have a finite remaining inventory and they are repricing to stretch the inventory out?
Is there a date of manufacturer on any of the labeling?
What have people seen?
What are the risks of buying a crate motor that was assembled 20 years ago?
10-04-23, 02:16 PM
#6015
Rotary Enthusiast
Just means I'll go billet, or flat plane crank V8. Tons of other crazy interesting other motors out there for the new price. It's mental.
10-05-23, 09:06 AM
#6016
Moderator
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they were building to order. they did take the summer off to make the 8c engines.
the other thing is, so far the price increase is USA only. i don't have a great place to check Japanese prices, but they haven't moved.
Mazda USA and Mazda Japan, and Mazda Canada are 3 separate companies, i can't stress that enough.
the other thing is, so far the price increase is USA only. i don't have a great place to check Japanese prices, but they haven't moved.
Mazda USA and Mazda Japan, and Mazda Canada are 3 separate companies, i can't stress that enough.
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10-07-23, 05:21 PM
#6019
Since then, the value of these cars has gone way up, making the "cheap v8" swap argument grounded. Additionally, there are so many better cars that are faster, cheaper, and don't require a full engine swap that will nickle and dime most to death. When swapping was all the rage, you could end up with a pretty fast car that could compete with just about anything on the road. Now you can walk out of a dealership with a 800hp OEM car, with a warranty.
I think with the price announcement, it'll only make the value of the vehicles increase more… The days of obtaining a "cheap build" for our type of vehicle is long gone. As the previous posts mentioned, you can easily walk into a dealer and buy a modern vehicle with a ton more power and warranty. Which is probably why our values are going to go up even more.
I have made reference to this earlier in the thread, but I suspect this will further accelerate the change of ownership demographics from "Budget performance enthusiast" to something resembling of the crowd generally associated with other makes that have no issue spending $20k on a PFC brake system and other expenditures that would probably make most of us here physically sick, and has less technical knowledge of the vehicle. It may keep more of them around for a little longer, but time will tell.
ps- And I completely agree with you guys regarding modern vehicles with warranties and how a new class of owner will unfortunately and most likely be assuming stewardship.
10-07-23, 08:47 PM
#6020
Junior Member
I had a new engine ordered with Ray since September 2022. Through some sort of glitch my order got overlooked or canceled even though I checked on the order every couple of months. When I found out about this and the the new price increase, I was disappointed but not mad at Ray, it wasnt his fault, I believe it was the dealership he gets his stuff through. The price sounds like a deal killer at first, and I havent reordered yet, but in the grand scheme of things, is another 4-5K for a new engine that big a deal? With the current value of the FD’s, just still having availability to new engines from Mazda may be the important thing.
10-07-23, 09:14 PM
#6021
I had a new engine ordered with Ray since September 2022. Through some sort of glitch my order got overlooked or canceled even though I checked on the order every couple of months. When I found out about this and the the new price increase, I was disappointed but not mad at Ray, it wasnt his fault, I believe it was the dealership he gets his stuff through. The price sounds like a deal killer at first, and I havent reordered yet, but in the grand scheme of things, is another 4-5K for a new engine that big a deal? With the current value of the FD’s, just still having availability to new engines from Mazda may be the important thing.
10-08-23, 11:49 AM
#6022
Unfortunately this means we may see more neglected examples with prices staying relatively low. Usually when a car stays relatively cheap but its maintenance costs increase, you end up with a bunch of neglected examples.
The Ferrari F355 is the classic example, when those cars were $60k and a 5-year timing belt service was $20k, it wasn't economical to maintain the car. Even if you can afford the car and maintenance, you're losing money. When the car is $120k and appreciating, on the other hand, a $20k service isn't as big of a hit.
The only thing that can stop this is for either maintenance prices to go down (which is not likely to happen), or prices of the car to go up. It's unfortunate for enthusiasts, but if the FD is to survive in the long-term, prices need to go up.
I would love to see these cars to get the point where it's profitable to buy a crappy example and restore it, because you'd see a lot more cars being saved. Right now you have the opposite situation where the car is worth more in parts, which is terrible.
The Ferrari F355 is the classic example, when those cars were $60k and a 5-year timing belt service was $20k, it wasn't economical to maintain the car. Even if you can afford the car and maintenance, you're losing money. When the car is $120k and appreciating, on the other hand, a $20k service isn't as big of a hit.
The only thing that can stop this is for either maintenance prices to go down (which is not likely to happen), or prices of the car to go up. It's unfortunate for enthusiasts, but if the FD is to survive in the long-term, prices need to go up.
I would love to see these cars to get the point where it's profitable to buy a crappy example and restore it, because you'd see a lot more cars being saved. Right now you have the opposite situation where the car is worth more in parts, which is terrible.
Last edited by c0rbin9; 10-08-23 at 11:54 AM.
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djseven (10-09-23)
10-08-23, 05:08 PM
#6023
https://www.amayama.com/en/part/mazda/n3g102200
These guys list it for $7k plus $1k ocean freight from Japan. Discounted US dealers seem to be in the $9300 range.
These guys list it for $7k plus $1k ocean freight from Japan. Discounted US dealers seem to be in the $9300 range.
10-08-23, 05:25 PM
#6024
Listing and actually having are sometimes two different things. Has anyone actually placed an order at the new pricing?
Higher pricing of new, will hopefully draw more rebuilds into the market.
My concern is shops may be "sweeping the box cars" in order to put together rebuilt motors and we might see marginal parts getting used that have been sitting on the back shelves.
But hey, if it starts and has marginal compression...........
Higher pricing of new, will hopefully draw more rebuilds into the market.
My concern is shops may be "sweeping the box cars" in order to put together rebuilt motors and we might see marginal parts getting used that have been sitting on the back shelves.
But hey, if it starts and has marginal compression...........
Last edited by Redbul; 10-08-23 at 05:31 PM.
