Valkyrie

That's what has happened before.

It didn't happen in a straight line (it was a 90-degree corner), but I did all my braking and shifting in a straight line. Hence why I was surprised that it would just step out like that.

toplessFC3Sman

iTrader: (1)

If you've replaced the DTSS bushings, but not the rest of the rear suspension bushings, as you load up the suspension laterally, the outside rear wheel will be toeing out due to the stock bushings, but without the DTSS bushing to toe the wheel back in... you just have a recipe for oversteer unless you either adjust the static toe towards toe-in to cancel the effects of the suspension bushings... or replace the suspension bushings with something less deformable like delrin or aluminum

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Man, everyone is trying to help, but you don't listen, you don't even read what you write in your own thread.

You should NOT be surprised that you are having this trouble; You have spun out 32 or 33 times this way. The same thing that spins you on autox is getting you on the street.

Hell, by now you should be surprised when you don't spin out...

This problem is entirely self-inflicted. You enter the corner too fast, tighten the line, the car understeers a little wide, you lift throttle/downshift/touch/hit brake,'snap oversteer' then blame the car.

BTW, the DTSS eliminators magnify this sharp transition from understeer to oversteer. This is why the system was developed, to prevent this dynamic from happening to (sorry) drivers that have gotten in over their head. With the eliminators, you always 'know what the suspension is doing' but this is only really a benefit on the racetrack, where you have a relatively high level of driving expertise, where you have a known surface, a relatively known corner speed, a repeated driving line through the corner, no oncoming traffic, no kids on bicycles, no surprises other than the other drivers. On an autox, you don't even have to worry about the other drivers.

You may think I am being a *****, but I really am not. I am just being consistant in my analysis of the information that you are giving in your thread. This is the help that you asked for, I and the others have given you all we can.

That being said, there is not much more to say other than-

Good Luck, I hope you find a solution to your problem!

alphaxxn

I didn't say I thought you were kicking the clutch. I was rephrasing what a member said before I had, because it had seemed that you didn't understand in a previous reply what he meant.

The reason that I was explaining corner weight dynamics and general shift is because it seemed as if you were surprised by the fact that the rear end was disrupted when you "only braked slightly more'. From that statement alone I thought that perhaps you didn't have a good grasp on vehicle dynamics during a dive-in situation.

Not to sound like an ***, but snap oversteer is a pretty hard condition to mechanically induce that can't be compensated for by driver knowledge and skill. People drift MR2s. It's just hard to swallow that the car just suddenly went into a full drift out of a 30 mile per hour corner and that it wasn't driver induced.

You expect me not to underestimate your grasp on vehicle dynamics when you're surprised by the car's violent reaction when you use too much steering, braking, or screw up a downshift?

Too much steering angle creates a potentially violent shift when the front decides to grab.

Braking causes the vehicle to dynamically shift weight, which you know so much about.

A screwed up downshift violently mates wheel and engine speed, which induces wheel lock/spin.

We'll start with the basics, since it seems as if the mechanics that could possibly cause the car to react the way it did have already been covered.

alphaxxn

If you think that is a fast, or effective, or for that matter safe way to drive, please take an HPDE school or something similiar. Driving the way, espescially on the street, is putting everyone at risk.

Knowing how to do something, and knowing how to do something effectively are two different things. I know that I can go into a freeway onramp at 70 and slam the brakes and downshift hard. I know that I can correct for what comes of it. I know that it's unsafe. However I in no way shape or form think that it is effective or safe, and if I were to want to drive quickly I would never attack a corner in that manner.

Delphince

Adding briefly to what alphaxxn said, you'll note I said "should never", not "can never", and was intended advise what is and is not a safe driving habit for Valkyrie in what appears to be his skill bracket. There are cases when it can be useful to brake through a good part of the beginning of the turn, but that's a higher level of driving. Another golden rule of this kind is to never touch the brake with your left foot (kart style), however again that rule is thrown out by expert drivers with specific cars designs. Just because you can get away with doing something in one situation, doesn't mean it's a good habit to form if you're not able to deal with the consequences of performing it in the wrong situation.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about mashing the throttle, and I fail to see why you would be downshifting if you have no intention of using the gear for the exit. If you're using it to help slow the car via engine braking, in a turn that has the same effect as lightly pulling on the ebrake, regardless of whether you shift softly enough to avoid a shiftlock. When the rear of the car is dragging and the front is not, it's going to want to slide around. Give it the right situation by adding in a hard brake, steep turn, bad road condition, improper bank, change in mu, etc, you may oversteer without ever disrupting the drivetrain.

I don't have your car in front of me, and you're just giving a short description of what you're doing, and most of us are trying to help you based on that alone and our own experiences. There is the chance you're overexaggerating and doing nothing wrong at all, which is why I gave you that link so you can give your car a once-over and see if anything on that list is noticably off.

RotaMan99

Did I ever say that its safe to speed around turns? I was simply implying that his *** end should not kick out as easily as he says. My car can handle on ramps and off ramps and speeds and so should yours. I now trhe limis of my car but the OP's car obveously may have something wrong.

Going by what the OP has said, he may nothave been overly speeding. Our cars can handle turns bpretty damn good unless your suspension is screwed up. 40-50mph around a turn is almost nothing for our cars. I don't know about you, but I like to be at 50+ by the time I hit the highway. It takes almost no skill to turn the wheel. Pushing on the brakes or shifting gears, as long as your not slamming the brakes or poping the clutch should not cause the car to kick out.

LogicFoxX

iTrader: (2)

Not to disrespect your statement, one should always follow the rules. But I'd like to use a line from Northwest Nissans website and say "Sports cars wouldn't be around and sold today if people didn't use them to 'push' the rules".

Hopefully it snows this christmass =)

*Edit* Though,If I catch u racing on my streets downtown where you could hit a kid or old man. I'll slash your tires.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Don't "push" the car on public streets though.

pfsantos

iTrader: (1)

Advanced tactics EXCLUDED (trail-braking, rev-matching, double-clutching, etc.)...

Do all your braking and shifting BEFORE turning in for the turn (your foot should only be on the gas - very slightly to keep balance). Make sure your downshifts are smooth. Give yourself a bit of room for mistakes or that small patch of dirt, debris, water, banana peel, whatever. If your car is still acting silly dynamics wise, have it checked - soon.

BTW, I noticed a part about shifting from 4-3-2...not needed for everyday driving. If you've braked and slowed down enough for 2nd. gear, you can smoothly go from top gear down to 2nd., as long as your speed will put you at a reasonable RPM when engaging the clutch (this is where rev-matching and/or double clutching becomes useful).

The above is not primarily for the OP, but some good general advice (I hope). To the OP - have someone you know for a fact is a good wheelman(woman) take a few turns in a safe environment to see if the vehicle is in fact the problem.

marK's

1) what suspension do you have?

2) what differential do you have?

3) are you sure you, as the driver, did not cause the snap back by being too overly aggressive with the steering? (aka throwing the car into full opposite lock, over countersteering, etc)

Valkyrie

Shifting from 5th>4th>3rd>2nd isn't because I need to, it's more for practice and fun (I'm not banging through the gears, and I'm not bringing it to high revs).

The suspension is probably the original OEM stuff.

And the diff is the plain non-LSD NA diff.

I'm getting a set of urethane bushings for Christmas though...

If doing what I was doing was "outside of my skill level," I wouldn't have had an accidental drift, I would have spun out.

I have to drive very gingerly while autocrossing (during the high-speed sections) to keep from spinning out, which is probably one of the reasons my times are mediocre. And like I said, I can barely remember a time where my car has understeered rather than oversteered, which is the opposite of what you'd expect from an FC...

But I'll see how it behaves after I at least get some new, stiffer bushings.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Your car likes to lose traction flat out through the high speed sections? Good thing christmas is here, time to get yourself some new suspension.

marK's

get better suspension...your stock suspension is soft and boaty, increasing weight transfer. the bushings should help out a bit, and there are plenty of people out there who dont spin out during an accidental drift even if they're outside of their skill levels. they snap back hard or snap back and forth because they panic.

i'd still attribute a lot of the problem to shitty suspension

Hypertek

iTrader: (3)

try removing the rear sway bar

Valkyrie

I'm not looking for band-aid fixes for underlying mechanical issues...

0verb00st

Isn't the majority of the breaking pressure applied to the front breaks suggesting that it would cause understeer?

Improving your driving technique will fix most of your problems. Break before entry, apply gas during or after you hit apex, continue driving

Roen

iTrader: (2)

at speed and at the limit, braking shifts the weight forward, causing the rear to get light and start to want to pivot. Pivoting rear = spinning, oversteering and/or drifting.

Alex6969

Good Luck with that project. Thats a pain in the *** I don't ever want to see again.

Sideview_S13

if you are trying to drift. how lame your attempt is. some form of vlsd or lsd is needed to make it easier. also you do not steer a drift with your hands you use throttle. letting the clutch out mid corner is usually to throw off the balance and help save a botch'd drift run.

You can drift on stock suspension with dtss easily(many times driven and taught at Drift Days @ cali speedway.

marK's

yes, you do steer a drift with your hands. both hands and throttle are ways to control a drift. you need more angle? give more gas, but if you dont steer, you'll spin. you steer to initiate a clutch kick, you steer to initiate an ebrake, you steer to initiate trail braking, you steer to initiate shift lock. letting the clutch out mid corner..i hope you're referring to clutch kicking. people do that to ensure a loss in traction so they maintain slippage.

without steering, you are not going to be drifting. have you ever drifted? you constantly move the steering wheel to make the car where it wants it to go.

RotaMan99

Your not kidding!! I started putting mine in 2 years ago and im still not finished causes I hate the thought of the PITA work that lies ahead!

Sideview_S13

moving the wheel alot results in deduction. try getting judged at it and see how you must adapt your style. the wheel movement must be smooth. None of that back and forth movement. BTW FL= fail ........

Roen

iTrader: (2)

RECAP:

marK's is talking about amateur drifting
Sideview_S13 is talking about competition drifting.

Bunchies

iTrader: (1)

Possibly. Soft rears usually give more time to react, while stiffer ones have a much smaller window to recover a slide.

In any case, your rear shocks probably aren't doing their job anymore. You're just bouncing around on springs in an uncontrolled chassis. You might want to look into getting a replacement set.