Valkyrie

Today I did a little accidental drifting for about the second or third time since I've owned my FC (except the 30 or so times I've spun out on autocross or drift events).

It seems that every time I use too much steering, too much braking, or flub a downshift into 2nd, my wants to spin out on me.


Luckily I corrected for it and didn't spin (wasn't what I'd call a pretty drift though), but I'm wondering what I can do to fix this problem.

Obviously one would be to get new, wider rear tires. Also, I need to replace my rear shocks, and bushings...

But what else can I do to prevent snap oversteer? A stronger front sway bar? New, stiffer springs?

What's ironic is that it happened on a corner that I take every day going to work at about 35 MPH (a 90-degree turn), but the only difference is that I used the brakes a little harder and maybe went through it 2-3 MPH faster, and had to turn the wheel a bit more.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

make sure your DTSS bushings are in good shape or replace them with DTSS eliminator bushings, also make sure your tire pressures in the rear aren't too high.

YaNi

iTrader: (2)

+1 Karack

What condition are the tires in? My old Dunlops were horrible on damp pavement, engine braking in 2nd gear would cause the rear to step out.

alphaxxn

Excessive degrees in ANY alignment spec on your rear end can cause excessive traction problems, but check that last.

jdmsuper7

iTrader: (1)

+1 sounds like what my car would do when mine really started to give out. Is there any play in the toe of the rear hub assembly?

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

How bout in order:

1. Slow your *** down on public streets-it isn't a race course.

2. I don't care how many auto-x/drift events you made in your life, learn how to drive your car. Recommended reading= Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving By Danny Sullivan.

3. Check for mechanical failure/defects.

4. Tighten the loose nut behind the wheel before it hurts someone or yourself.

Other than that, have a Merry Christmas.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

my sig... when my DTSS started to go out it would randomly feel like I was hitting water / ice .... very scary. Kill it ... its super easy to do... but does kill the whole feeling like your *** is 1 ft outside every time you turn though. I do miss that. But I am much much much much more stable because of it.

Valkyrie

I already have DTTS eliminators.

And I wasn't going that fast. Just a little bit faster than normal. There's no traffic where this corner is, and the opposite lane is covered by a concrete curve and 10 feet of median. I don't normally approach the limit of traction, and I don't turn aggressively if there are other cars there. Not to mention I've taken it literally like 200 times with no issues.

I need to rotate my tires, since the rear ones already almost out of thread (which has nothing to do with dry weather performance).

I get alignments once in a while, although the idiot at Big 10 Tires wouldn't check my rear camber because it isn't adjustable stock. It might be a little too negative, but I think the springs are stock.

The last time I had an accidental drift was when I pulled too fast onto driveway for an Italian restaurant, although I corrected it and didn't have any problems. This was LONG before my tires were close to being worn out.

And for the record, I've had Speed Secrets (1) for longer than I've had my FC :P

w0ppe

Sway bars
DTSS Eliminators
Don't let the clutch out during the turn (or accidental drifting techs)
Springs and dampners
Less power?

marshall13B

iTrader: (5)

i have that same problem. no mod's to anything. what the heck is DTTS/DTSS? (ive seen both) and thats how i did my first wreck.

Valkyrie

You don't go through turns with the clutch in. That's a very bad habit.

RETed

This doesn't make any sense...

Too much steering usually means understeer...
Too much braking usually makes oversteer...
Screw up a downshift usually means oversteer...

If you're steering too much, this just flat-out says you don't know how to drive???


Unless your car is totally screwed, I agree with the diagnosis that you're going in too fast (and panicking).

One of the worst things you can do with a RWD during the turn is lift off the throttle.
This causes weight shift toward the front, and this causes instant oversteer.
Basic driving techniques teach you do all your braking before the turn-in.

Oh, and I don't need to chastise you on doing this **** on public roads...


-Ted

toastiepenguin

iTrader: (3)

Ya i remember when I first started to drive my car aggressively around corners. I use to get so much whiplash. Then I learned how to enter a corner correctly, basically learned that whipping the steering wheel left or right in an uncontrolled fashion doesn't help too much. haha

Other than that new tires made a world of difference. also what are you using for struts right now?

Valkyrie

I still wasn't going that fast.

I didn't let off the throttle right as I turned in. I got on the brakes and shifted down 5th > 4th > 3rd > 2nd, and turned in more or less as usually, and the rear end stepped out on me. I'd say I was 10% more aggressive than normal, at most.

I think it's probably a mechanical issue, since I tend to spin out a lot while autocrossing when I cross a very narrow threshold. The rear shocks are really soft, and tend to make a lot of noise when going over speed bumps.

NoDOHC

Just a thought, tires don't stick as well in the winter (colder), you might need to adjust driving tactics accordingly.

(Believe me, I have adjusting driving tactics considerably, look at my sig to see my recent DD while RX7 rests for winter/Haltech and you will understand.)

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Ok, lets take this really slow (pun intended).

Valkyrie, I don't know you, but this is what I know about you just from your thread:

1. You went into a corner on the street fast enough to nearly spin and started this thread. This has happened to you before on the street.

2. You have poor judgment (see #1).

3. You don't think you were going too fast (see #2).

4. You don't have an analytical mind, often disregarding cause and effect ( see #3).

5. You have multiple maintenance issues with your car (see #2).

6. "I still wasn't going that fast" (see #1 & #2).

Much of a man's success in life is due to honestly and ruthlessly self-evaluating behavior- particularly failures and mistakes, listening to criticism both constructive and otherwise, internal and external, picking out the truth even when it hurts, then adapting his own behavior to yield better results. Lather, rinse, repeat. This model can lead you to an entire lifetime of self-improvement and success.

Good Luck!

Slow down, learn to drive, fix your car, live.

alphaxxn

What he meant to say is not to disengage the clutch violently while in a turn. Your rear tires will be overworked from trying to match engine and road speed, while already overworked from side forces while in a turn, thus causing loss of traction.

Of course, with the clutch in at high speeds is a bad idea as well, because it gets rid of natural engine braking which can give the effect of keeping the car more planted.

Basically, don't accidentally kick the clutch in a corner

Also, even though mechanical oversteer can be overcome by driver technique, excessive negative or positive camber can and will cause snap conditions, under or oversteer.

Braking harder can cause excess oversteering conditions as well. An example I can give is at the Just Drift events in my mazdaspeed mx-5, I NEVER use the ebrake or kick the clutch, I just lightly tap the primary brakes during turn-in. Because that car is so well balanced it disrupts the rear by transfering weight to the front of the car, and causes the car to drift once power is applied.

Just because you "braked slightly harder" can, and often times will cause an unintentional drift

Also, worn rear suspension components of any type will cause undesirable effects. The bushings and shocks (espescially shocks) all do their part in keeping the rear planted. Fix that stuff and THEN look for advice if it's still happening.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

+1, a lot goes through your mind when driving hard on the street. Cops, other drivers, road hazards, road surface, mechanical failure, etc. Not saying that this is the reason but its definitely worth taking into consideration. Go to an empty parking lot or a deserted back road and make sure that the problem isn't in your driving. I've never had this problem even when accidentally lifting off the throttle on exit ramps with a decreasing radius, the rear predictively snaps and catches again. As for "using the brakes a little harder or flubing a downshift", you shouldn't be braking/downshifting in the actual turn but in a straight line before the turn...you shouldn't need wider rear tires either, bone stock the car is more likely to understeer than oversteer and that will make it worse.

Autocrossing (unless you have a high speed course) will only teach you so much, I won't even mention drifting

Valkyrie

What makes you think I was kicking the clutch? I'd actually say I was closer to slipping the clutch on downshifts to keep them smooth.

In all reality I was probably doing about 30 MPH through the corner. But something or other upset the car to just the other side of "WTF!" and the rear stepped out.

You also don't need to explain the mechanics of braking drift to me. The issue is that it shouldn't have started drifting at that level, so it's probably a mechanical issue.

Delphince

The point they're trying to make is you should never be downshifting or otherwise slowing your car in the middle of the turn. Doing so means you're still going faster than you would like, and you should have finished all of your deceleration before the turn. Downshifting to accelerate out of a turn is a spirited technique and shouldn't be explored unless you're familiar with double clutching or at the very least correctly stepping up your engine rpms between the shift to properly match the lower gear. Everything you mentioned--increased turn-in, braking mid-turn, and unassisted downshifting (shiftlock)--will cause the car to oversteer if it's near its mechanical limit, whether you're at 20 mph or 200. "Learn to drive" is a rude overstatement, you just need to adjust your driving habits.

In the meantime, disconnect your rear sway bar, it'll help shift the car to an understeer bias.

Edit: Here's a website for basic understeer/oversteer adjustments. It'll also help you to spot some mechanical problems that could be causing your oversteer.
http://www.rallylights.com/other/stuning.htm

ultrataco

iTrader: (2)

That is an excellent book. Anyone with any interest in driving or racing should read it.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

First, you should put your car on jackstands and pry gently on all suspension pivots to see if you have any excessive play.





Now, with the DTSS eliminators you want some toe in adjusted into the rear suspension.





Stock alignment w/ DTSS allows +/- 3mm toe because it will start to default to toe in once the load on the DTSS gets to 100kg.

That 3mm toe out allowed will make for a wild ride once you eliminate the DTSS. Go for some toe in.

Also, if you don't already have a limited slip rear end it makes the rear end MUCH more predictable exiting a corner under throttle.

I had a base model and it sucked when the single drive wheel switched in the corner as the weight shifts back and forth.

Valkyrie

Seriously, wtf?

I was already done accelerating and downshifting before I actually turned.

Do you honestly think I'd be wondering why my car was so oversteer-happy if I had been mashing the throttle out of the turn?

I don't need to adjust my driving habits, I need to figure out why my car likes to suddenly oversteer when it should be understeering. I don't think I've EVER actually understeered in my car.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

This is what lead me to believe that you braked/downshifted in the middle of a turn. Can you explain to me how you managed to spin out while braking/downshifting in a straight line? Besides the people bashing you for not doing it at a track everyone is trying to help you, calm down.

Delphince: Thanks a lot, thats a great link.

RotaMan99

My car would kick out pretty good when I had a bad rear wheel bearing. The car would also be near impossible to keep in a single lane on the highway if it was windy or if the road was in rough shape.

Any similar symptoms?

Are you kidding me? I do this all the time, especially if im coming off the highway. This should be no means spin the car out if you don't do it violently. I can hit the brakes hard and down shift coming into or while already in a hard 180* turn without the *** end kicking out. Something could easily be wrong with the rear suspension in the car.