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Wild, intermittent sputtering and bucking

Old 08-21-16, 01:33 AM
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Wild, intermittent sputtering and bucking

Hey guys,

Hate to have to post another thread so soon, but this one is pretty important.

My car's a 91 N/A coupe.

Recently I did some maintenance and mods to the car. It was driveable for a week at which point it sat for another week while I looked for struts to swap in where the bad coilovers were. Things I did:

-depowered steering rack and removed pump
-oil and filter change
-fitted Rambler (yes Rambler) engine mounts due to the stock mounts being in pieces
-removed 6PI actuators (they were fine); could not free up the ports themselves, though I did get one to open a few MM (maybe it's not closed still...?)
-new fuel filter
-cleaned throttle body (it was already spotless though)
-poly bushings
-welded in new battery box
-straight pipe where cat was and welded up end of air pump line (I wanted to just take the hose off, but I was told there would be an annoying sound... well, either my wheelbearings went at a weird time, or I'm still hearing a howling noise even with it welded shut)
-strut bar
-new O2 sensor

I've also started using Idemitsu premix, and I think I may have been using a bit too much. Would overuse of it cause sputtering? I only think that because the car runs fine after gassing up. I've stopped using it for now just in case.

Anyway, on to the symptoms:

From getting the car rolling all the way to 3500+ RPMs, the car likes to jerk around a TON now. Around 3800 RPMs I hear what sounds like crazy overlapping misfiring (almost like putting a card up to a fan blade!) and sometimes the car will NOT pass 5500 RPMs. My VDI IS working, and I can move it by hand, so I'm guessing those two things are related. When it cuts out there, it almost feels like hitting complete fuel cutoff.

This is not always the case. I try to take it to redline whenever possible and it's usually fine if I rev match into a lower gear and floor it. Initial acceleration is the worst. The last 2 times I've filled the car up, it's ran fine, even flooring it; however, after sitting for a few hours, the problem comes back, AND this could have just been from stopping the car for a short period of time. Also, sometimes, getting off the throttle and being more gentle with it will stop the problem, but the fuel "flutter" still usually is present.

My car still has an erratic idle that bounces from almost 1000 down to 500, and it has stalled on me a few times coming to a stop when not fully warmed up. Also happens when starting the car up after sitting for 2-3 hours, so I have to put light throttle for about a minute.

Here's a list of things I think it could be:
-when bracing the engine, a ground got messed up
-the alternator is hitting the strut bar and ruining my fun (they are rather close, but I don't think this would do anything)
-the new engine mounts are messing with the ground (engine sits a little higher, but really not by much)
-I put way too much premix in at some point and clogged an injector (I'm only down 400 ML though after using 150L or so)
-the tranny mounts are just completely gone and messing with everything
-the rambler engine mounts are too soft, throwing things out of whack
-when welding the straight pipe, something got fried (though the TPS checks out and the ECU looks fine, as does its wires)
-wrong O2 sensor (though there is no CEL and I don't see how this would cause a crazy problem like this)
-I somehow broke the throttle even though I barely touched it (hey, I'm just covering ground here)
-diff mounts gave out after jacking up on the car
-the flywheel went out of round when someone was backing my car up onto the hoist and burnt the clutch a bit
-seals are going (car starts up every time just fine, doesn't even seem to want to flood)
-fuel pulsation dampener (car runs rich but I don't smell much fuel in the engine bay)
-!!!the port I opened slightly is creating strange turbulence (I'm pretty sure I have closed it but it's hard to tell)

None of these really make sense when the problem is so intermittent, especially the suspension related ones. It is only under load and pressing in the clutch will stop it.

I've checked for vacuum leaks and my TPS is still reading decent Ohms, 1k at closed and 4.7 at WOT. I've had mixed results by chucking the car around to mix the gas tank more thoroughly. It hasn't worked the last few times.

I hate to say it, but I'm getting stumped, and this car is my daily so I'd like to get it sorted out. I plan to get new intake manifold gaskets to check out the 6PI and injectors, as well as the engine grounds. And today on my way to work, the car was completely cold, and I didn't even encounter the bucking... It hit me hard on the way home, though!

Does anyone have any idea? Don't tell me my apex seals are on their way out....


Thanks so much for your help.

Last edited by Malihide; 08-21-16 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 08-21-16, 07:53 AM
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I would double check your engine grounds, have you changed the fuel filter recently, is the fuel pump getting loud, besides welding the air pipe what does the rest of the exhaust consist of? The fact that the issue is intermittent leads me to believe it is a sensor, ground, or fuel issue. If the issue were constant I would be more prone to consider vacuum
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Old 08-21-16, 09:29 AM
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What was the condition and what was your history with this car before the modding began?
Honestly, faced with such a cornucopia of issues, I'd strip the engine down to the keg and start from scratch.
You'd have to do that to free the aux ports up, which is the first order of business anyway.
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Old 08-21-16, 10:16 AM
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I just replaced the fuel filter, literally. I can't hear the fuel pump run and the previous owner had installed a gauge which reads 30-35 PSI at idle and a little more with revs.

I've had the car for 2 months and have treated it like a rotary for those months. I'm not sure why these problems are just popping up now. I will be taking the intake off to free the ports and check things out, I was just wondering if anyone had been here before.

Is there any way to lean the car out? It almost feels like it's choking on fuel, even under 3800 RPMs

Last edited by Malihide; 08-21-16 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 08-21-16, 10:45 AM
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As long as you run the stock ECU no, you can't tune the fuel delivery...or anything else for that matter.
Part of the engine strip I recommended before would be having the injectors serviced -at @$100, the most expensive single item, the rest, gaskets, seals, vac/fuel hose, sensors, figure another $100-150.
If you're lucky, the OMP lines will remain intact.

It's a daunting task because there is so much stuff layered on top of the engine.
Just taking it apart is likely to cause damage if the vacuum hoses or electrical are original and brittle (be especially careful with the vac solenoids).

It's the only way though and once done, should make your future life much simpler.
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Old 08-21-16, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by clokker View Post
As long as you run the stock ECU no, you can't tune the fuel delivery...or anything else for that matter.
Part of the engine strip I recommended before would be having the injectors serviced -at @$100, the most expensive single item, the rest, gaskets, seals, vac/fuel hose, sensors, figure another $100-150.
If you're lucky, the OMP lines will remain intact.

It's a daunting task because there is so much stuff layered on top of the engine.
Just taking it apart is likely to cause damage if the vacuum hoses or electrical are original and brittle (be especially careful with the vac solenoids).

It's the only way though and once done, should make your future life much simpler.
Will do.

I'm also going to replace the engine and transmission mounts with solid ones I have. I'll do those today.

Having the injectors serviced (the primaries I assume) is just a solvent clean, right? And I know I need the intake manifold gaskets, both to the engine and between the upper and lower manifolds. Every hose on the car looks quite recent and nothing is close to being brittle, but what lines would I be looking at?

I've also heard the main engine ground is near the intake manifold as well so I'll check that out for sure.

I'm also gonna set the gas pedal down and readjust the TPS because the idle is bugging me. I'll check for dead spots in the TPS too.

I have to say, the car pulls very well even with the aux ports unplugged. I'm excited to have them working. Speaking of which, there was an alleged rebuild on the engine 30k km ago. Could the ports be stuck from the owner being too easy during the break in period? The VDI is perfectly fine and I can move it by hand.... but I'm guessing that's due to its placement. I appreciate your patience, I'm still learning.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Edit: my car uses an ECU made by Blue Streak Electronics in 2006. I'm guessing it's made to OEM specs or even remanned by them, but it would be nice if it could be reflashed..
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Old 08-21-16, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Malihide View Post
Will do.

I'm also going to replace the engine and transmission mounts with solid ones I have. I'll do those today.
Why the hell do that?
If you can't afford real mounts, I suppose solid mounts are better than nothing but your setup is not capable of stressing OEM bushings and you'll be introducing NVH for no good reason.

Originally Posted by Malihide View Post
Having the injectors serviced (the primaries I assume) is just a solvent clean, right?
No.
Read what Whichhunter says about it.
Do all four injectors at the same time.

Originally Posted by Malihide View Post
And I know I need the intake manifold gaskets, both to the engine and between the upper and lower manifolds. Every hose on the car looks quite recent and nothing is close to being brittle, but what lines would I be looking at?

I've also heard the main engine ground is near the intake manifold as well so I'll check that out for sure.
There are actually a couple of grounds on the engine- one goes to the long mounting bolt for the starter, and another is a couple of ring connectors that bolt into the top of the keg. There's another on the hard vacuum spider that bolts to the dynamic chamber flange (very close to the IAT sensor and the throttle cable). These are all interconnected (not the starter motor one though) and go to a fitting on the firewall right next to the wiper motor.

Originally Posted by Malihide View Post
I'm also gonna set the gas pedal down and readjust the TPS because the idle is bugging me. I'll check for dead spots in the TPS too.
Not sure what "set the gas pedal down" means but you can disconnect the cable altogether to adjust the TPS and idle and when you're done, reconnecting the cable should not affect anything.
Originally Posted by Malihide View Post
there was an alleged rebuild on the engine 30k km ago. Could the ports be stuck from the owner being too easy during the break in period?
The Magic 8 Ball says:"Highly Unlikely".
The actual port sleeves are aluminum and it's possible they are sticking but it's equally as likely that the actuating rods in the LIM are the problem. These are two piece steel rods, joined in the center with a spring (so be careful when trying to pull them out and be aware there's a seal you'll need to replace) and they fit into a rather long bronze bearing in the LIM.
Soaking the sleeves in Purple Power will remove and carbon/gunk.
The rods and LIM bearing you'll have to deal with as best you can.

Originally Posted by Malihide View Post
Edit: my car uses an ECU made by Blue Streak Electronics in 2006. I'm guessing it's made to OEM specs or even remanned by them, but it would be nice if it could be reflashed..
Never heard of them but that means nothing, I'm sure more experienced folk have.
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Old 08-21-16, 02:32 PM
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Ok, thanks for the info!

I have poly bushings in the front suspension-are solid mounts still a bad idea? I do enjoy the vibrations of the current shot tranny mounts so I'm sure it won't be too ridiculous of a switch. I suppose delrin would have been the smarter choice but I'm just trying to minimize drive train and engine movement while driving hard.

It was worded poorly but by set the gas pedal down, I meant to free some slack in it, because I read another post where a different member found that he could close the throttle by hand more at idle and this was the cause of that (and incidentally his erratic idle).

What seal do I need to replace that you mentioned was related to the rods? Is there a thread you could point me towards that covers the gaskets and seals I should grab before starting? If not I'll look at the service manual once I get home.
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Old 08-22-16, 10:23 AM
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I would definitely chase those grounds first.
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Old 08-22-16, 11:03 AM
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This is the actuator rod seal.
@AdrianD2...
You can't really "check the grounds first" because some of them are buried below all the intake manifolding and there's a lot of disassembly required simply to expose them. By the time you get down to the grounds, you're already committed to some replacement parts (mainly gaskets) and the other stuff I recommended (like vac/fuel hose) will never be easier to do...so why not do it?

Obviously, much depends on the condition of the engine but I'd figure on about $250 for parts (including injector service) and maybe two days of work (because you WILL run into something unexpected).
Because you'll be draining off some coolant (or else just letting the thermowax hoses overflow), it's also the perfect time to replace the water pump and rad/heater/thermowax hoses and belts.

The point of this seemingly excessive approach is to nip problems in the bud and save on future labor and diagnostic time. The two most common recommendations when someone has a problem are "Vacuum leak" and "Bad grounds!" and I've basically eliminated those possibilities.
As for the cooling advice...antifreeze has gotten somewhat pricey and bleeding the system can be a PITA, so why not just do it all and be done?
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Old 08-22-16, 12:02 PM
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Clokker I do agree with you. I'm still new to the FC and have only owned mine for 2 months, preparing motor for reinstallation. If reaching these grounds is improbably without removing the manifold parts then I would definitely consider doing a little refresh of the areas of service.

However, since they cannot be reached without removal of some parts, then tackling other easier problems, like vacuum leaks, is probably a better idea.
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Old 08-22-16, 12:11 PM
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Half the vacuum system is buried below the manifolds as well though.
Practically speaking, checking the vacuum and checking the grounds are the same thing.
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Old 08-22-16, 12:23 PM
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Great info, guys.

Vacuum leaks are the first things I checked for. I couldn't find any on the air box, throttle body, or around the intake manifold, but I didn't realize that there were yet more leak-prone places under the manifold.

I'll try to find out what else I'd need to replace other than the two manifold gaskets before I tear it down. The problem is still intermittent, pretty much 50% of the time it will happen and it tends to happen all in one driving session rather than every second red light.
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Old 08-22-16, 01:06 PM
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I would recommend getting back to your 5th-6th ports & getting that situation un-stuck & working properly or just removed. I might Speculate that the bucking and sputterring might be the result of back-pressure pulsing through the intake manifold when the VDI valve opens because the aux ports are stuck with one partially open & the other closed.

The other issues that could arise from this are Fubared fuel mixtures from non-functional aux ports & functioning secondary fuel injectors with no-where to go but backwards through the manifold.

If you're worried about grounding issues, add some of your own known good ones from the alternator to the intake manifold to the firewall... but that's just me...

Don't forget that the Altitude Pressure Sensor vacuum line has a restrictor pill in it that needs to be transplanted if you replace the Vac-lines. The ECU will act really Stupid if you leave this do-dad out of the line or fail to hook it back up.

I'm an idiot so I use black permetex on my old intake gaskets...

Otherwise, excessive un-burned lube-oil might foul the O2 sensor or maybe the Cat Temperature Overheat Sensor for a non existent Cat puts the ECU into idiot mode... I don't know anything about it, but I'm trying to make other guesses that "Could Be Helpful".
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Old 08-22-16, 01:08 PM
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Some pics from a recent engine install, show you what you're getting into:
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That's basically your vacuum/fuel spider in place (although I've made some detail changes, yours will look similar). Layered on top of this is the engine harness and it's all covered by the exten manifold.

The main engine grounds bolt to a boss on top of the center iron, right in the middle (almost) of this Medusa's nest, so you can see that "checking the grounds" is no trivial task.
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Old 08-22-16, 04:10 PM
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I'm sure that will look a little more inviting when it's in person! (I hope)

Thanks for the pics! (we use the same oil filters, I see)

I just got hit in a parking lot on the prettiest part of the car, the rear quarter panel. I don't have very good luck. Hopefully it won't be written off or anything, because I'd like to take care of this soon.

Ramses, that's a good idea. I did just replace the 02 sensor, but I noticed that the one in there before was ceramic (or something, it was white) and the one I replaced it with was metal. Seeing as how it comes before the cat, though, I'm not sure if it's sensing anything there. Maybe the premix I've been using fouled it.
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Old 08-22-16, 05:38 PM
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Ouch, quarter panel damage is the worst, I hope it works out for you.
My first shell had myriad dings/dents but I could comfortably live with them because I reasoned they were all bolt-on panels and if they really bothered me, I could replace them.
Then the rear quarter got scraped, that fantasy ended and I ultimately reshelled the car.

If you continue with the engine work...
-Get a new thermosensor. It's <$10 at Rock Auto and the only way the ECU knows coolant temp, so it's important.
-Get a big jar of dialectric grease and use it liberally on every connector you find.
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Old 08-22-16, 05:39 PM
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From what I understood, the O2 sensor is really pretty stupid & rarely comes into play until a cruising mode is entered & open-loop processing starts to alternate between lean & rich to cycle the different Cat functions... & then there's the over-temp condition as well... All that goes on with the split-air pipe to the O2 Cat & also air injected into the exhaust diffusers in the rotor housings. It's no wonder that things might act screwy when you change the conditions.

You said you "welded" the split-air pipe?!? I'm not sure if the pressure build-up in the mangled air-system is going to mess with everything else... Suppose the Split-air pressure is now being added to the exhaust air diffusers & back-firing/detonating due to too much Port Air & an over-rich mixture?

You might "Un-weld" the split-air pipe & port it to the silenced dump line coming from the Air Control Valve on the Lower Intake Manifold. Most people end up ditching the factory air-emissions system completely, removing the ACV & air-pump & using blocking plates & fabing up a small electric air pump for the Aux Ports & VDI.

Believe it or not, I started out here with a plugged up Cat problem all those years ago... I Feel Your Pain... Sorry to Hear about the Parking Lot Inci-Dent... That Sux My boo-boos were self-inflicted long ago...
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Old 08-22-16, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ramses666 View Post
cruising mode is entered & open-loop processing starts to alternate between lean & rich to cycle the different Cat functions...
Uummm, what are "different cat functions"?
My understanding is that the split air pipe feeds air to the cat primarily during cold start to help light the cat off and begin functioning sooner (lower emissions) but that's about it- the rest of the time the airpump is either diverted to the exhaust ports or dumped overboard (all the while supplying the aux port/VDI actuators, too).

During all this though, the cat just does what a cat does...there are no different modes or functions involved.
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Old 08-22-16, 07:58 PM
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Thanks, guys. It is the kind of unfixable where it'll never look right to me, even if it's "fixed" (i.e. pull and fill, yuck)

But, like Clokker, I picked up a car that had dinged panels, telling myself they could be replaced. Well, dammit, now the only piece that can't be has been hit. It was the only flawless piece, too!

Ramses, I think you might be on to something with the exhaust port idea. I wasn't sure if that's where the excess air is cycled, but seeing as how it's not able to push anything to the cat, that may be what's happening. It would also explain the 5500 RPM thing, as running rich + exhaust diffusers + advanced timing probably equals no power. Is it alright to just remove the pipe entirely and let the thing blow into the engine bay to test this theory?

clokker, maybe it is unable to dump enough air when it can't send any through the air pipe. My exhaust note definitely sounds different sometimes, and yes it is loud enough for me to tell, so it does sound like it could be related.
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Old 08-22-16, 08:02 PM
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There are 3 different parts to the "Cat" system... the High Temp Reactor in the Header, & 2 different types of metal catalysts. 1 type tackles the Hydro-carbons & the other processes Nitrogen Compounds. These 2 different metals need to cycle between excess O2 & excess Nitrogen to recycle the catalyst to keep the exchange process going. The cycle is altered by changing the O2 injection amounts & locations & the altering of the AFR from Lean to Rich.

I didn't invent the thing... Look Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
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Old 08-22-16, 08:12 PM
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I'm on my second shell as well... Use this opportunity to learn... Then get a good one to do correctly in a few years... I inherited my Dad's bottom of the barrel 4-lug SE & kept it running for 10 years, but it wasn't worth saving when an Excellent Shape GTU was had for a measly $1500.

I was over-whelmed for quite a while before I was really comfortable working on a Rotary... Even Now... My Brain still Melts occassionally.

I would guess that the un-welded split-air tube can just be left open in the engine bay. I'd try & get the aux ports freed up and the actuators re-installed... One aux port partially open might be bad news when the VDI opens and cause the Bucking Problem. The "Playing Cards" in the fan could be the extra O2 in the exhaust Port Air.

Last edited by ramses666; 08-22-16 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 08-22-16, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ramses666 View Post
There are 3 different parts to the "Cat" system... the High Temp Reactor in the Header, & 2 different types of metal catalysts.
FB's had 'em but FC's do not have a thermal reactor in the manifold.
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Old 08-22-16, 08:52 PM
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I could be wrong about the Thermal Reactor in the Header... I was under the impression that the earlier models only had a thermal reactor because of leaded gasoline, which kills the Catalysts.

The Thermal Reactor/Header was kept and the 2 extra Catalytic components were added when non-leaded fuel was mandated... The NA Header is Designed to Hold the Heat in a concentrated area to burn up the extra fuel & lube with the exhaust port air that is added... there's nothing fancy about it.

I remember Factory Cat Replacements were several thousand dollars back in 2002... It was excessive, but the alternatives were not really very simple or effective for me & started a Journey down a Road to Ruin & a School of Hard Knocks. Welcome to the Party. If you need your Nits-Picked then put on a Flame-suit & Pony-up an Opinion.
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Old 08-23-16, 07:43 PM
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79 had reactor/ 80 cat
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