j0rd4n

Obviously there are differences, but I wonder why these rebuild kits cost so much. Much of the kit is gaskets and o-rings, with the addition of the apex/side/corner seals and Torrington bearings.

You can get rebuild kits for piston engines for much cheaper, and my co-worker (who is a Mustang/Cobra afficionado and loves rebuilding and racing them) was amazed at how much the kits cost.

Is it just because they're such a low volume item?

Also, if I'm going to be rebuilding it myself, I plan on getting a rebuild kit from some place like Atkins Rotary (I've already owned the 4-DVD rebuild set from Nopistons and I've watched it a few times), but someone also mentioned a reseal kit? Is this different?

RETed

Where are the parts made?
Mostly (if not all) in Japan...
Thus, it is an imported item.
Imported items get taxed.
If you lived in Japan, you almost pay half price.

Are the domestic parts you talk about manufacturer OEM?
I doubt it.
Aftermarket parts are typically cheaper.
Yes, volume production makes parts a LOT cheaper for consumers.
Does anyone make aftermarket equivalents ("meet or exceeds manufacturer OEM") for these Mazda OEM parts? No really...

If these parts look expensive to you, you need to dump the car and get a domestic.
Ever looked up parts for *European* models?
You'd be glad you just need to buy "cheap" Japanese parts...


-Ted

jerd_hambone

yeah a Porsche rebuild cost upwards of 2-3k for a 944 haha

a Chevy 350... 200 bucks hahahaha

j0rd4n

Heh, thanks for answering the question so thoroughly...

Just because I said it's expensive doesn't mean I'm not going through with it. I was just curious about the cost of raw materials for the kit versus the price to purchase it. I never really considered the import tax, so thanks for mentioning that.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I was whining about the price, so I apologize if that's how it appeared to you.

NZConvertible

You're right about the low quantities though. Your mate's Mustang parts are produced in massive quantities compared to rotary parts, so economies of scale play a big part. Also Mazda is the only source for most of the rebuild parts, so they don't have to compete with anyone on price.

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

If you're stuck on OEM everything you're going to pay alot. Try Atkins Rotary master rebuild kit. The only thing I'd request OEM in that kit would be the oil control o-rings.

MazdaMike02

iTrader: (4)

RB has a kit too but its expensive as hell.

j0rd4n

Yea, I'm going to most likely go w/the Atkins kit. Of course, this isn't something that's going to be done right away after I get my tax refund, but I want to have a plan of everything that is going to be done so I don't spend money where I don't need to (ie: why buy a rebuild kit right away if I'm not going to have the time to spend rebuilding it until the fall?)

On a related note, I don't have a real parts washing machine to clean everything after I'm done. Do you think there's places I could take to have it cleaned, or would it be easy enough (though time consuming, I'm sure) for me to clean myself?

I'm hoping that when I tear down the motor that I can take the parts I need to spec out to our Metrology department at work so I can use their tools to make sure everything's within the FSM limits.

thx for the info on OEM oil control rings

RETed

Racing Beat is usually all Mazda OEM.


-Ted

BLK FC3S

RA sells a master rebuild kit as well.

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

Sure. Honestly, I've been running the viton rings for 20k and several years in my FC without incident. Pineapple racing started a big scare about them failing for some reason, but none of it ever seemed to have any evidence behind it. I personally think the problems people had with the rings had to do with installer error, as they are harder to press in and I can see them being damaged by a novice mechanic.

Do you have a pressure washer? What I do with my parts is spray them with degreaser, scrub them, secure them to an outside table and hit them with a pressure washer. Repeat until clean. After that I blow them off with compressed air, but a film of oil on any rust-prone surfaces (like the irons) and put them in the convection oven.

j0rd4n

I don't have my own pressure washer, but my buddy is most likely more than willing to let me borrow his. What do you scrub with? Wire brush or nylon? Or not even a brush...

Juje

I bet Mazda can make their kits upwards of 2k and people will have to buy them if they love their sevens, there is not much competition right?

Black91n/a

Well you also have to think, that $200 V8 kit, what is it, just some oil seals and gaskets, or does it include things like piston rings and bearings? Probably not. The rotary kit is more than just a few seals and gaskets.

NoDOHC

Actually, a small block chevy can be rebuilt for $200.00 that is head gaskets, wtaer pump gaskets, crank bearings, rod bearings, piston rings, cam bearings and freeze plugs. I have done it.

cptpain

iTrader: (1)

they cost so much because every seal and gasket is important to have a refreshed motor. and because an OEM kits are imported from japan and typically are more reliable and last longer than aftermarket.

if you look around you can find OEM rebuild kits for $700-800 for a complete rebuild and not just an o-ring and gasket set. at the dealer its about $1k or so.

turboeric

You also have to remember that the rotary is a very low volume motor, so doesn't benefit from the same economies of scale as a Ford small block. That motor has been in (literally) millions of cars and trucks over the years, so many of the gaskets and seals will have been manufactured by the millions for decades. Also, there are dozens of manufacturers even for the OE gaskets and seals for Fords, so that will drive costs down. Any parts for a relatively rare motor like the Wankel will be more expensive.

NoDOHC

I think that you can use the factory specs for each of the seals in the engine, if it meets the specs, you can reuse it.

I know several guys who have 20,000+ miles on a rebuild using a new rotor housing and 3 apex seals and reusing all the others seals and internals as they were in factory spec.

New gaskets are still necessary, but they arent $900, they can be bought right now on ebay for $150.00 (although the fitment of such gaskets is in question).

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

I wouldn't recommend re-using many hard seals on a car this old. I've seen plenty of side seals as brittle as charcoal and I haven't even pulled apart that many 13B's. I'm sure some people can pull it off, though I just wouldn't feel good about the motor.

For scrubbing I use a wire brush on external surfaces. If it's a gas washer, you probably won't need to scrub very much. Keep in mind it's a wet/messy process, but it works really well. Just be sure you secure parts really well witha rubber clamp or something. It would suck to blast it off a table and onto a hard surface...

V8what?!

Speaking of Japan, I live in Tochigi Japan.

I also plan on returning to Texas in two months and rebuilding a couple rotaries with a pal of mine. I haven`t yet looked for rebuild kits here, but after work that is my goal.

Anyone interested in some rebuild kits at Japanese prices besides my buddy and me?

j0rd4n

thx for all the info on the kits as well as about parts washing...it's been very helpful. it's just another one of those things that goes on the list of "to do's" which seems to get longer and longer coming from a student with no excess income and a car 120mi away at home

RETed

That's how they are brand new.


-Ted

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

You must have hard charcoal over there.

Either way, I wouldn't put a seal that had 180k miles on it back into a motor just because it measured to be the correct dimensions.

RETed

Those things are made from sintered metal powder.
They are then fused under high pressure and high temperature.
They are strong, but they are also very brittle.

Ever drop one of the oil control metal rings?
They tend to crack and shatter.

You can make a case of arging for the heat cycling, but I've never seen - even high mileage motors - a side seal shatter in it's groove under normal use.


-Ted

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

I didn't know that they were sintered. That's interesting.

The only bad thing I've ever done with a control ring is lay my hand open on the sharp edge...

I had one crack on me when i re-used it. It was my first rebuild and lasted 200 miles, hehe. I could have been too tough on it getting it out of the groove.

My point is that I wouldn't recommend re-using parts to a novice. It's not fool proof to start with new parts, but it eliminates alot of pitfalls and errors that could be made.