13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

ok so i have a s4 TII and I'm having an issue with starters. Ive burnt out 3 solenoids in about 2 years. and i keep having a problem when i go to turn the key it just makes a single tap sound and wont crank over but if i keep trying it usually starts on the 3rd try and then it wont do it for a while. now i just got done installing a new flywheel and clutch and i went to start it and it does the same thing except it wont start at all now. but it was fine before i did the clutch and flywheel besides the occasional tap sound. what could be the problem?

daviddeep

iTrader: (4)

I was having this same problem with my old '90 GTU about five years ago. I couldn't figure it out no matter what I tried. Finally gave up and took it to the professionals, a local guy in New Orleans who specialized in Miatas but was a former Mazda Master Mechanic from the rotary era. Turned out there was a short in one of the starter lead cables that was causing the starter to draw the incorrect voltage during cranking but only by a small amount, causing each new starter to last several months before cooking itself. If I recall correctly, the guy solved it by running a new cable from the battery to the starter and all was then well. (Thank you Marion Parrett, if you are reading this.)

Not saying this is your issue, but maybe something to check out.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

i forgot to mention that i have my battery in the back of the car so i have a new cable running to it but it may be hooked up wrong. i have a 0 gauge wire running from battery to the starter then a cable running from starter to the under hood fuse box to the alternator. what exactly does the small black wire that runs to the starter? I'm assuming its a ignition signal that makes the starter crank?

HAILERS

I'd buy new brushes for the starter itself. NAPA....thirty bucks. Self install.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

so your saying i should be looking at the actual starter brushes and not the solenoid? i ask that cause i don't think the solenoid is even engaging the gear

Craiger

iTrader: (1)

First things first, since you've relocated your battery, make sure it hooked up properly before you start replacing random parts. Make sure your power cables and connectors are good and you new main ground is good.

The small black wire is the trigger wire from the ignition. Signal sent from the ignition to the solinoid to run the starter.

Have you been replacing the starter with new, refurbished, remanufactured, or used starters?? You can often rebuild the solinoids too, take apart, clean, reassemble.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

all that ive been replacing is the solonoid with a brand new one. i have touched the starter itself because it seems to be fine.and the battery is fine its been i\relocated for a while and all connections are good i have a stud welded to the body for a good ground. im thinking its something with that trigger wire cause why else would it work fine for like a month and then start acting up again

HAILERS

The starter brushes are bad. The solenoid is good. You hear it click when you go to START.

Or if you've nothing but time on your hands, get a long piece of wire that reaches b/t the battery positive post to the starter solenoid. Put a female spade on the end at the starter and connect it to the blade on the solenoid. Then touch the other end to the batt positive post. Starter should spin each and every time you do that.

But I think your starter brushes are bad and worn to the nub. Replace same. It's as cheap as a starter solenoid.

If your solenoid was bad, you'd be going to Start and each time you did the starter would spin, but it would not engage with the flywheel. It'd whirrr all day long (starter) but not engage the flywheel.

HAILERS

I actually have several opinions on why you get a click and only a click when the key is put to Start.

This other opinion is that there is not enough current coming from the ignition switch and the problem is in bad contacts inside the ignition switch.

IF you do as I suggested in my above post, and run a piece of long wire from the starters small blade on the solenoid, and then touch the other end of that wire to the battery positive post, and the starter works each and every time you do this, then I'd suspect the ignition switch internal contacts.

kenneth_ugalde

In my humble opinion, you may have a problem with the way the cables are connected. There is a short cable that comes out of the starter and connects to the solenoid. That cable must be connected to the stud on the solenoid that does not cone ct with the starter trigger ( thin cable that attaches to the solenoid).
If it is connected that way, there is a small but constant current flowing to the solenoid. It is not enough to activate the solenoid but enough to make it warm to the touch after a while. This not only damages the solenoid which ends up being fried but also damages the brushes because they become part of the electric path (the starter body is connected to ground, the brushes are held in a metal holder that is attached to the starter body, ground, and the positive cable connected at the wrong stud on the solenoid provides the current.)
I am speaking out of personal experience here. I had that problem with a rebuilt starter. When installed in the car you notice no problem because the negative cable is off the battery. When you connect it back there is only a small spark (indicative of current draw) but nothing else. The starter works fine for a while and then click click click.

At this point you may have a bad solenoid, bad brushes or both.

Also, keep in mind that the interior of the solenoid has a bronze plaque that serves as contact for the main starter motor. Because of the high amp that it handles, every time the starter is used, there is a spark that eventually wears the contact off tho the point where the solenoid clicks and moves but does not perform as the switch for the starter motor.

My second gen starter has a sealed solenoid that is not repairable. I had to buy a new one.

Good luck.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

the strange thing is though the last time it completely died like this the guy at the starter shop just put a new solenoid on and it worked good for a while until it started acting up again. and another thing is the click sound isn't as loud as it should be. i mean ive has starters go out before and the sound of the solenoid engaging was much louder. this sounds more like it may not be getting enough current. what do you think about the way i have it wired with the batt relocation that i stated in my previous post?

HAILERS

Tell you what. Turn the headlights on THEN go to Start. See if the headlights get reeeaaaal dim or not. Just a touch dimmer means to me the battery routing etc is probably ok.

If I were you, I'd take the few minutes and small dollars, and buy a piece of wire that reaches from the batt pos terminal to the starter solenoid small blade and do what I described in the post above. If the starter whips over each time, then I say a problem with the circuit b/t the solenoid and the ignition switch. Most likely ignition switch.

Don't dismiss KENNETH's words above though.

What I described is Cheap to try out and gives you a clue imho. Cheap.

HAILERS

Here's an example of brushes out of a starter mtr. See how two of the four are much shorter? Why? Got me. Worn out and not making good contact.

Try the wire thing mentioned above.

And or, the next time it goes click when you go to start, smack the starter up the side of the head with a hammer a couple of times and try again. If it now starts, I say brushes. Just an opinion.

That picture is an example. The last time I took my starter apart, two were much worn than those in the attached jpp.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

cool man thanks for all the info. the wire thing you mentioned should be even easier for me cause i already have a cable running straight to the starter from the battery. so i basically just need to touch it to the small blade? are you referring to the blade that the skinny trigger wire goes to?

ramses666

iTrader: (1)

Did you connect the ground wire to one of the bolts that hold the starter in? You REALLY NEED THIS GROUND WIRE!!!!!!!!! Just a wire to a stud welded into the body is not going to work no matter what else you try. PERIOD!!! It needs to be a BIG WIRE DIRECTLY TO THE BATTERY!!! The grounds on these cars are infamously bad over time. I've added quite a few big ones to the intake, alternator, firewall and small ones for the coils. Don't rely on the body for the ground - they were just screws through the metal - the paint wasn't removed so any corrosion on the fastener compromised the ground.

Ramses666

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

i have that big wire that attaches to the one alt bolt. and one 0 guage wire from battery to a welded on stud in the rear cargo area. i have the battery in the back

ramses666

iTrader: (1)

Well you forgot the battery negative to the ground on the starter bell housing bolt.... whats wrong with you? Thats the basic necessity for it to work properly. A good ground for the largest load on your electrical system. What... you mean the starter should get its reference ground through the engine mounts?!? No wonder you burn stuff up... when the connection isn't good enough the current draw goes waaayyy up & burns out components or won't work at all. Hook up the largest wire you can find to a bolt that holds the starter to the bell housing to the negative on the battery.

Ramses666

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

whats wrong with me? i typed alt instead of starter in my above post.. i deffinetly have that large ground wire going to the starter bolt

HAILERS

Yeah. From the skinny to the battery positive post. I'd crimp on a female connector on one end and attach it to the skinney, then just momentarily touch the other end to the batt positive post. The starter shoul engage each time you touch the end to the battery positive post.

Make sure the transmission is out of gear if you do that. I mean, your under the car when you do that and .............splat.

The way I read this post, is that you've had this battery relocated for some time and the starter work Most of the time, but you've been having trouble periodically and have changed the starter solenoid with mixed results. But now you've just changed the flywheel/clutch and it won't work at all. It does bring into question if the negative terminal from the batt was reconnected to the starters long bolt or at least one of the nearby transmission/engine bolts. But I think you cleared that up in your last couple of posts.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

yeah you have all that correct. anyway i pulled the starter out and tested it and the solonoid does engage but the starter motor wont spin so i took it apart to look at the brushes and they arent worn like the ones in that picture they look even but i orderd some from napa and im going to pick them up now so ill let you know how it goes..is there any tricks to install the new brushes?

HAILERS

I was hoping you would not ask about brushes installation.

I'm a total amateur at that. Don't use a screwdriver or equiv against the carbon brushes is a helpful suggestion.

I believe is memory serves, I put the brush assy on the armature without the springs. Then installed the springs using a pair of needle nose pliers. Difficult for me.

Then installed the metal cap over the brushes/armature and lined up the screw holes b/t the brush assy and the holes in the metal cap.

I agree. There has to be a better method. Maybe someone who knows the right way will throw in a word or two.

Tell you what. I'll go out and practice on a old starter motor and if I find a better method I'll say so.

SCCAIT7

You have a bad ground.... You have installed 3 starters and burned them up...something is wrong - If you have relocated the battery my guess is that the ground cable is too long...

Just one mans opinion --- And we all know what those are like...

I have a starter guy here in Atlanta that can rebuild your starter. The only other thing I can think of is that your armature is bent inside the starter and its grounding on the side of the casing...

LISTEN.... before you try to install new brushes... send the starter down and I will take it to my guy... Typical cost is about $75 dollars to rebuild it with new brushes...true the armature... If you dont know what your truely fixing... your just pissin in the wind trying to fix something...

HAILERS

My understanding is he has NOT tried three starters. He tried a couple of starter solenoids that worked for a period of time then he ended up with the *click* problem when going to Start. LIke one *click* for each time the key was put to Start.

I went out and took my starter apart. To put the brushes back on the armature, I put the body of the starter in a vise as shown in the picute. The layed the starter brush assy on top of the small bearing on top. The brushes won't go over the brushes unless you take action.

I used what was handy. I took a plastic clothspin apart (yellow item in the jpg) and used one half to press against the brushes one at a time. You shove one brush til it goes below the bearing......then the next brush........and the next and so on til all four are now below the bearing and resting on the bearing side.

Then you repeat the same procedure but this time you getting over the armatures side. One brush at a time. Took about three/four minutes to get the brush assy ON the armature and ready to have the metal cap installed over the brush assy.

Prior to taking the starter out, I wish the thread owner had bridged the gap b/t the small blade on the solenoid with the large wire on the solenoid, to make the starter turn over .........or not turn over. Kinda interested if it would have turned over or not.

HAILERS

I took the following pictures a hour ago or so, so I'm just going to post them. No reason other than that.

I doubt you'll have a problem putting the new brush assy on. If I can take 'em off and put 'em back on in a half hour or less, you can. Practice on your old ones.

Plastci clothspin or equiv so you don't break/chip the carbon brushes.

13bturbofc

iTrader: (4)

i did try to jump the small blade on the starter and it didnt turn over it just clicked. then i took it out and tested it and the solonoid engauged but starter didnt spin so i took it apart and the brushes dont look to badly worn but i bought some anyway but when i went to take the old ones out the little screws that hold the brush asembly on they stripped out, they are very tight and very soft metal. so tommorrow im gonna drill them out and buy new screws. anyone know what thread size the screws are?