Who's running peripheral port on their FC?
10-30-04, 06:08 AM
#26
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Originally Posted by dDuB
Why does everything think a peripheral automatically means not for the street? There are different levels of P-port motors, including something as small as a bridge-port/p-port hybrid... Don't assume every P-port is some huge unstreetable monster, you can essentially make the intake openings whatever size you want, to a point, or as small as you want in conjunction with the normal ports of the motor.
-Ted
10-30-04, 06:14 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by White_FC
you can do it ALOT cheaper than you first outlined..
I'm trying to "dumb this down".
and a stock TB would MORE than handle a PP w.r.t its flow characteristics, although only a nut case would try and use it on one. (manifold design)
Will it work? Yes.
With it work efficiently? No.
So you're end up with a PP motor only making 220hp?
IMHO a N/A drivetrain wouldnīt immediatly break either, your not increasing the torque of the motor.(at least not by alot).
Most PP dyno graphs I've seen will break 200 lb-ft very easily.
I don't consider the NA drivetrain reliable over 200 lb-ft.
and P-Ports are generally more streetable than bridgeports, not as much bucking, and look how many street car have bridgeports (over here at least..)
Personal opinion is all this is really.
Personally i would like to have a P-port powered car on the street one day.
Personal opinion is all this is really.
Personally i would like to have a P-port powered car on the street one day.
All I know is overlap kills low end power and efficiency.
I don't build race cars.
I build street(able) cars.
My customers don't want something that guzzles 10mpg and makes very little power under 4,000RPM.
-Ted
10-30-04, 09:19 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by RETed
Sure, I always estimate on the high side with a potential customer that has NO "hook-up's".
I'm trying to "dumb this down".
Sure, and we can keep the stock exhaust system on it too.
Will it work? Yes.
With it work efficiently? No.
So you're end up with a PP motor only making 220hp?
Can you show me an example of a PP motor with an NA drivetrain that's reliable?
Most PP dyno graphs I've seen will break 200 lb-ft very easily.
I don't consider the NA drivetrain reliable over 200 lb-ft.
I can't comment on how streetable the PP motor will be.
All I know is overlap kills low end power and efficiency.
I don't build race cars.
I build street(able) cars.
My customers don't want something that guzzles 10mpg and makes very little power under 4,000RPM.
-Ted
I'm trying to "dumb this down".
Sure, and we can keep the stock exhaust system on it too.
Will it work? Yes.
With it work efficiently? No.
So you're end up with a PP motor only making 220hp?
Can you show me an example of a PP motor with an NA drivetrain that's reliable?
Most PP dyno graphs I've seen will break 200 lb-ft very easily.
I don't consider the NA drivetrain reliable over 200 lb-ft.
I can't comment on how streetable the PP motor will be.
All I know is overlap kills low end power and efficiency.
I don't build race cars.
I build street(able) cars.
My customers don't want something that guzzles 10mpg and makes very little power under 4,000RPM.
-Ted
I agree. Unless this is not a street car, however if you were doing this for a track car, I'd hope that you have the knowlege to properly build engines for the track.(edit) BTW the "Valve overlap" is true. Why do ignorant people post such dumb responses like,"camshafts"?
10-30-04, 09:31 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by RETed
Can you show me an example of a PP motor with an NA drivetrain that's reliable?
Most PP dyno graphs I've seen will break 200 lb-ft very easily.
I don't consider the NA drivetrain reliable over 200 lb-ft.
-Ted
10-30-04, 10:58 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by inflatablepets
(edit) BTW the "Valve overlap" is true. Why do ignorant people post such dumb responses like,"camshafts"?
i still think someone should build a hybrid side/pp motor that uses a variable manifold to switch between side and pp or even side and (side +pp) (this would also save on the cost of filling in the side ports on normal pp's)
same concept as a six port motor only the 5/6 ports would be periphreal!!!
obviously this would be a very technical and expensive project to undertake but you could have your cake and eat it too this way. side ports for low idle and decent low end, PP for power.
Last edited by andrew lohaus; 10-30-04 at 11:21 AM.
10-30-04, 06:21 PM
#32
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I've seen an AE86 (non-hatchback) that had a P-Ported 13B running on the street. This car held 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear sideways and spun through 4th on drag radials.
10-30-04, 10:03 PM
#35
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I'd have to aggree with ted here..
http://www.mazdatrix.com/r-20.htm
Thats if you don't build it yourself, or select the parts you want. You still have to get your driveline taken care of, fuel system, etc.. Then you have to drop it in.
http://www.hitman.hm/ported.htm
http://www.mazdarotary.net/porting.htm
These are only a few examples of simply typing in "Peripheral port 13b" into Google search. I'm more then positive, there are several engine manufactuers that have created a page dedicated to porting and what not.
As ted also says, he was posting that the amount could reach up to 10K + , which is true, because if you don't have the resources/DIY skill, and you want it to be ready to go and drop in, you will pay more then what a basic turbo swap will cost.
Honestly, if i were you, i'd just rebuild yours and street port it.. or just get a TII driveline.
-Justin
http://www.mazdatrix.com/r-20.htm
Thats if you don't build it yourself, or select the parts you want. You still have to get your driveline taken care of, fuel system, etc.. Then you have to drop it in.
http://www.hitman.hm/ported.htm
http://www.mazdarotary.net/porting.htm
These are only a few examples of simply typing in "Peripheral port 13b" into Google search. I'm more then positive, there are several engine manufactuers that have created a page dedicated to porting and what not.
As ted also says, he was posting that the amount could reach up to 10K + , which is true, because if you don't have the resources/DIY skill, and you want it to be ready to go and drop in, you will pay more then what a basic turbo swap will cost.
Honestly, if i were you, i'd just rebuild yours and street port it.. or just get a TII driveline.
-Justin
10-30-04, 10:14 PM
#36
i have a peri-port in progress. will be either in my fb or fc or might just get another fb to run the motor. i'm doing my per-port project since i had a few housings laying around; i just need to open up the exhuast ports and i'll be almost done. i'll post pics in a few days or so.
doing it for bragging rights? you betcha!
doing it for bragging rights? you betcha!
10-31-04, 01:24 AM
#41
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I've read that most pp's only last to about 10k, if your going to build one you may aswell make it a good one with 50mm ports, there is no point in a pp unless its radical.
10-31-04, 01:58 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by RETed
Sure, I always estimate on the high side with a potential customer that has NO "hook-up's".
I'm trying to "dumb this down".
I'm trying to "dumb this down".
Sure, and we can keep the stock exhaust system on it too.
Will it work? Yes.
With it work efficiently? No.
So you're end up with a PP motor only making 220hp?
Will it work? Yes.
With it work efficiently? No.
So you're end up with a PP motor only making 220hp?
This is all a moot point though since it would be spastic to even try and make it work. I do feel it important to point out just how big the stock TB is though.
My customers don't want something that guzzles 10mpg and makes very little power under 4,000RPM.
-Ted
-Ted
and all the rotors iīve been in with a really agressive BP/PP have more power under 4,000 rpm than a stock port motor. Maybe youīve only been in not very well tuned ones or your just exagerating a bit.
Sure they idle too high and really roughly, but they do have more power over almost all of the RPM range.
itīs always going to be a trabe off. Obviously a turbo motor will give you a more streetable car for the same ammount of horsepower. But every person I know with a ported rotor on the street does it because they like the sound and feel of one.
weīre all different in the way we look at our cars I guess..
10-31-04, 01:01 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by VII
I've read that most pp's only last to about 10k
This is tipically because they run carbon seals.
Carbon seals wear out rather fast but dont generally do any engine damage when they let go. So you just tear the engine down and replace the seals.
10K is a very short life though.
You can get upwards of 70k on carbon seals if the engine doesnīt see itīs whole life abive 8krpm.
10-31-04, 01:09 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by White_FC
Fair enough, but $10k (US presumeably) is an astronomical ammount for a PP engine IMHO... [/B]
http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...num=MZTX-13-PP
That's with no shipping.
I'm sure you can find $1,500 to tack onto that budget...
3x45mm TBīs are more than enough to feed ANY n/a PP motor.
This is all a moot point though since it would be spastic to even try and make it work. I do feel it important to point out just how big the stock TB is though.
This is all a moot point though since it would be spastic to even try and make it work. I do feel it important to point out just how big the stock TB is though.
If we're talking about pure cross sectional area, then you're right - 3 x 45mm is a very large area.
But, we're talking about flow potential...
Now, I don't build these things, but I've heard an option on carb is a 2 x 50 - 55mm.
2 x 55mm bores can outflow 3 x 45mm...
Well not everyone in this world is your customer, some people DO like to have to fill up their tank every 2days just for the pure fact of owning a PP or BP for the fun of it.
and all the rotors iīve been in with a really agressive BP/PP have more power under 4,000 rpm than a stock port motor. Maybe youīve only been in not very well tuned ones or your just exagerating a bit.
Sure they idle too high and really roughly, but they do have more power over almost all of the RPM range.
Sure they idle too high and really roughly, but they do have more power over almost all of the RPM range.
So far, I haven't.
If you got dyno graphs proving such claims, I'd be more than happy to see them also.
-Ted
10-31-04, 01:25 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by RETed
Lesse...Mazdatrix 13B PP built-motor = $8,500
http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...num=MZTX-13-PP
That's with no shipping.
I'm sure you can find $1,500 to tack onto that budget...
http://www.mazdatrix.com/getprice.as...num=MZTX-13-PP
That's with no shipping.
I'm sure you can find $1,500 to tack onto that budget...
But a price is what people are willing to pay I guess....
Now, I'd like to see the math on this?
If we're talking about pure cross sectional area, then you're right - 3 x 45mm is a very large area.
But, we're talking about flow potential...
Now, I don't build these things, but I've heard an option on carb is a 2 x 50 - 55mm.
2 x 55mm bores can outflow 3 x 45mm...
If we're talking about pure cross sectional area, then you're right - 3 x 45mm is a very large area.
But, we're talking about flow potential...
Now, I don't build these things, but I've heard an option on carb is a 2 x 50 - 55mm.
2 x 55mm bores can outflow 3 x 45mm...
In that instance I canīt see how 2x50mm TBīs could flow more than 3x45mm TBīs.
I donīt know a whole lot about flow charateristics though.
Of course I dont have any dyno plots of PPīs or even BPīs for that matter.
Im just talking about what iīve experienced myself. although I agree it would be an interesting exrecise to see a stock port motor and a PP go head to head on a dyno.
Itīd have to be on the same dyno on the same day though.
10-31-04, 03:11 AM
#46
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"Quote:
Originally Posted by banzaitoyota
TED: How is YOUR car?
Sitting outside?
-Ted"
LOL damn i love his responses.
Hands down, one of the coolest guys on this board =)
Originally Posted by banzaitoyota
TED: How is YOUR car?
Sitting outside?
-Ted"
LOL damn i love his responses.
Hands down, one of the coolest guys on this board =)
10-31-04, 03:39 AM
#48
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https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/dyno-test-13b-pp-202924/
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/peripheral-porting-146917/
Although the dyno graphs are supposedly screwed up, I doubt the motors make any power under 4kRPM.
In fact, there's some numbers from a really low power PP in one of the above threads.
I'm sure there is a way to make one "streetable", but is it worth it?
I haven't seen one yet.
-Ted
https://www.rx7club.com/rotary-car-performance-77/peripheral-porting-146917/
Although the dyno graphs are supposedly screwed up, I doubt the motors make any power under 4kRPM.
In fact, there's some numbers from a really low power PP in one of the above threads.
I'm sure there is a way to make one "streetable", but is it worth it?
I haven't seen one yet.
-Ted
10-31-04, 06:30 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by RETed
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=202924
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=146917
Although the dyno graphs are supposedly screwed up, I doubt the motors make any power under 4kRPM.
In fact, there's some numbers from a really low power PP in one of the above threads.
I'm sure there is a way to make one "streetable", but is it worth it?
I haven't seen one yet.
-Ted
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=146917
Although the dyno graphs are supposedly screwed up, I doubt the motors make any power under 4kRPM.
In fact, there's some numbers from a really low power PP in one of the above threads.
I'm sure there is a way to make one "streetable", but is it worth it?
I haven't seen one yet.
-Ted
Again, what is streetable?
Is it the fact that someone has successfully driven a car so equiped for a long period of time?,.. If so rob from pineapple racing has done so,.
Is it the fact that the car must make a certain amout of HP below 4k rpm? if so i assure you a PP will make more then a geo metro below 4k,.. are geo metros not streetable?
Is it the fact that a car must come in that configuration from the factory to be streetable? If so the NSU spider was PP from the factory,.. is this street car not streetable?
Also, the size of the PP matters,.. a small PP can behave just like a stock sideport on the street, granted it wont make huge power but it will be tame.